Unqualified Eagle Candidate

[standerson 21]

I am an Eagle Scout with about 30 years experience.

 

Our son crossed over into Boy Scouts in Feb and after about 5 months, I was asked to be Advancement Chair.

 

Two weekends ago my son and I participated in an Eagle Scout project. I didn't recognize the young man but I was told he was a member of the Troop. Last week, I started receiving Emails from various members of the Committee expressing some doubt as to the qualifications of the Eagle candidate.

 

Sunday night at the Committee Meeting, I started asking questions. This young man has been a Life Scout for 3 years. He turns 18 the first week of October. I was basically told that he was lacking: 1) Leadership position. None since being a Life Scout; 2) Camping - Not only does he not have the Merit Badge, he has less than the required number of days/nights and 3) Is not active in the troop.

 

I questioned the Committee on whether or not this was ever discussed with the Scout or the parents?

 

No

 

I was informed he didnt attend very many meetings and that was the reason. I told the Committee that this problem that should have been addressed long before now. Whether in person, in writing, over the phone; we should have been addressing this. Waiting until after he completed his project is not the correct time.

 

I believe another reason is the mother is considered overbearing by members of the Committee and it appears they are uncomfortable talking to her

 

Next meeting, he and his mother have been asked to show up so that we can talk. I am going in with the Scoutmaster and Committee Chair. We are going to discuss alternatives.

 

I will not Chair any Board of Review for a young man who is not remotely qualified for advancement.

 

Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[standerson 21]

I just found out what National considers "Active" Guess we'll eat that requirement.

[evmori 11]

Ya might have to eat the active requirement but all the others ya don't. Sounds like this Scout was let slip through the cracks. That is just as much the unit fault as it is the Scout!

 

Remember, just because this boy is about to age out doesn't mean you need to bend over backwards for him. He needs to do his part, too! After all, it's his advancement, not the units.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[NeilLup 13]

Oy!

 

I greatly respect you for holding this meeting. This is the right way to do things even if they end up very unpleasant. If you think that they will be VERY unpleasant, you might also invite a knowledgeable and skillful Commissioner or representative of your District Advancement Committee to be there as impartial witness.

 

You may find out that the Scout has held a position of responsibility or has good reason to think that he has. In that one can meet the requirement by being Historian, Scribe, Librarian, Quartermaster, or Troop Instructor in addition to the more obvious jobs like SPL, ASPL and PL, he may believe that he has been in one of those jobs. He may have been told something previously that would lead him to believe that he was in the job. Also, note that he is not required to have served in that position of responsibility in the time immediately prior to his Eagle Board of Review. Rather, doing it at any time after being a Life Scout meets the requirement. The six months of service does not need to be continuous and does not all need to be in the same position.

 

It could be quite a challenge if it comes to him saying "I thought I was in this Position of Responsibility" and the Troop saying "Officially, according to Troop records, you weren't." This could very legitimately be a reason for appeal if he is turned down for not having met the Position of Responsibility requirement.

 

He may believe that his time in a Position of Responsibility prior to being a Life Scout counts for Eagle. You need to show him the requirements in writing at that point.

 

As far as Camping Merit Badge, I find it inconceivable that a boy in a halfway active Troop would make Life Scout and not have 20 days and nights of camping including one summer camp. If he did the summer camp (ever), that would count and leave about 14 or 15 days and nights. If your Troop goes on Friday-Sunday campouts, that means that prior to being age 15, he would only need to have gone on about 2 campouts per year to make the 15 days and nights. If he is an OA member, he already has 15 days and nights of camping and only needs 5 more. Again, those days and nights of camping can be met any time after joining the BSA as a Scout. He likely had plenty more than that when he was 10, 11 and 12. However, at this point, I would suggest that the counselor will want much more than "I went on lots of campouts when I was younger."

 

Meeting the rest of the Camping Merit Badge requirements may be a bit tough but far from impossible in the next month and a half.

 

You may even find that he (or his mother) think that he has the Camping Merit Badge.

 

I would suggest that you not start off in a hostile manner but rather pleasantly introduce yourself as the new Advancement Chairman and since he has completed his project, you wanted to review the requirements with him to make sure that they were all in good shape and he was ready to go forward. Put an Eagle Scout application in front of him or a printed set of the requirements. Let him run through the requirements one by one and verify that he has met the requirement. Start off with the ones that he clearly has done. When his mother starts to talk and it is virtually certain that she will, stop the discussion and, in a polite and friendly way, tell her that it will be his Eagle Scout and he will be the one going before the Eagle Board of Review so will she please let him describe and substantiate that he has met the requirement. You may need to do this several times and it may get a bit pointed.

 

If you you end up concluding that he has not met one or more of the requirements, particularly if you conclude that it is impossible for him to do so before his 18th birthday, they (she) may very well and legitimately ask why he wasn't informed of this long ago. To this, and here it becomes a matter of personal style, I would probably say "you were."

 

I would point out that the requirements have been essentially the same since he joined the BSA and they are available in BSA printed publications and on the web. He made Life Scout and so knows how to find, read and meet BSA requirements. Eagle requirements are very similar to Life Scout requirements, only more merit badges, more service, etc. If there were ever any questions, he could easily contact the Troop and resolve them. However, this is for Eagle Scout which is a very, very special honor and the expectation is that the Scout will take a lot of initiative. He frankly hasn't been around much and Scouting expects (don't say the Troop expects) that the initiative is with the Scout to do the requirements and see that the requirements are met. Not the Troop and not the Scout's parents. It's his Eagle Scout, not theirs.

 

Expect his mother at this point to say "He's really busy and has a lot of things to do." An appropriate response might be "I'm sure that's true. Every 17year old who has the potential to become an Eagle Scout is pretty busy. But some choose to do things in Scouting and earn the Eagle and some choose to prioritize their time in other ways and don't get the Eagle. It's the Scout's choice."

 

At that point, the discussion of options is appropriate. It's up to you to negotiate how far you are willing to go. If you conclude that it is impossible for him to meet the requirements, offer him the option to appeal to the National Council or request additional time from the National Council to complete the requirements. The request will not be granted but good faith and the Scout Oath and Law require this in my opinion. In preparing this appeal/request, he needs to be told that he would need to substantiate that factors beyond his control have kept him from meeting the requirements.

 

If you end up concluding that he cannot make Eagle Scout, be very courteous, friendly and kind, congratulate him for his time in Scouting, thank him for all that he has done and tell him that many, many Scouts have not made Eagle Scout and still have had a great time. He won't be listening at this point but you have to say it.

 

Then, I would recommend immediately summarizing your conclusions in a letter to him copy to his parents, copy to the SM and CC, copy to the COR if your chartered organization is in any way active and possibly copy to the district advancement committee. If you end up concluding that it is impossible for him to make Eagle, again congratulate him for what he has accomplished.

 

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.(This message has been edited by NeilLup)

[Bob White 20]

Depending on what he has left to do it is possible that he could finish the camping merit badge in time. That is his responsibility however and not anyone elses.

 

Is everyone sure that the Scout did not complete requirement 4...to actively serve in one of the specified leadership positions for 6 months after becoming a Life Scot. Three years is a lot of time and if he had done it early on some folks might not remember.

 

If indeed this requirement has not been done then he has no chance of completeing all of his Eagle requirements in 6 weeks.

 

I suggest that the Scoutmaster sit done with the Scout and review the Eagle requirements to verify if what you believe is true.

 

If you have heard correctly then the scoutmaster or you can simply explain to the scout that with the limited time left he will be unable to complete all the Eagle requirements.

 

I hope the troop leadership will remember (and remind the Scout) that there is nothing wrong with completing your youth career in Scouting have achieved the Life Rank. That in itself is a very high accomplishment. Also remind him that Eagle Scout is not the goal of Scouting. The goal is that the young man leave with the skills and values from his scouting experiences to be able to make good decisions throughout his life. Eagle Scout is the highest rank, it is not the goal or purpose of Scouting, nor does not achieving eagle diminish a persons other accomplishments.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[John-in-KC 311]

Mr Anderson,

 

Bob White brought out three important points:

 

1) Scrub your unit records very, very carefully. Make sure this young man has or has not completed the six months tenure in a Position of Responsibility. You might ask him what he has on his records!

 

2) If he has not completed a POR, then it's time for a SM conference for him, and for you to communicate with his parents: Eagle will not happen. He failed to meet requirements. Didn't know is not an excuse, the leadership requirment has been in the Boy Scout Handbook for many years, certainly through the current edition!

 

3) Regardless, SM should give him the name of a qualified MB Counselor for Camping. Twenty days and nights of camping isn't tough to get.

 

BOTTOM LINE FOR YOU, SIR: Whenever recharter is, look at youth who've stopped attending. SPL and SM should contact them about retention. You do not have to recharter youth who are ghosts.

[croushorn 10]

May I recommend, if you arent already, get a program like troopmaster to manage this data. Give each registered scout a periodic advancement report to review (at least twice a year). It will help clear up misunderstandings about POR, dates, or MBs much earlier. This is one of those cases where the adults just figure this young man wont push the issue and expect him to fade away. Suddenly hes sitting in front of you looking for a conference and troop BOR. Then the alarms start sounding and everyone gets excited airing concerns way after they couldve been constructively addressed. Unfortunately Ive been there too, but as SM, and he was a left over from the prior administration.

Agreed with advice already posted, you are approaching this properly. Lay out all his records in front of him and ask to confirm if anything is missing from it. Because as it is, it appears he doesnt qualify for Eagle. That takes it away from a personal attack and backed up by the facts. At least to rational people, it reduces the chances of the you leaders never liked my son and this is what youre doing to him. Try and give him some options to work with. Do all you can to help, but hes got to see what hes up against at this point and if possible, decide if hes up for finishing it.

 

[PeteM 10]

The POR does not have to have been done consecutively.

Perhaps he did it a bit here and a bit there, but only the Scout can tell you if the records do not.

[Trevorum 24]

Good advice from all.

 

In our largish troop, our ASM-Advancement tracks the status of all fellows who are 16 years old. We assume that since they are still around, most of these fellows are interested in earning Eagle. The ASMs job is to spot "fatal flaws" like the one described here and facilitate the scout in finding a solution. While there is still plenty of time.

[John-in-KC 311]

If I were sitting an EBOR and a Scout came to me with more than two POR for his six months leadership tenure, I'd be asking lots of tough, probing questions. I won't say I'd vote to reject his elevation to Eagle outright. I will say I'd need a very good reason for many PORs before I'd vote for his elevation.

 

I'd almost definitely ask for an adjournment of the board to Executive Session, call in the Scoutmaster, and ask him for some clarifying details.

 

 

[croushorn 10]

John - Really? Please elaborate on what you'd ask and how it'd effect your voting.

[Bob White 20]

I do not believe you are correct about that Pete. The requirement says it has to be within "a six month period". It can be in different positions, such as a scout who earns his Life as a Patrol Leader and then a month later gets elected to SPL. Then in 5 more months he would have completed the requirement. Or a scout who has been a life for a year and then gets elected to patrol leader, serves for 4 months and gets elected to SPL. After 2 months as SPL he could complete the requirement.

 

But the requirement specifically states that it must be done "during a 6 month period".

[standerson 21]

Let me respond to a some of the posts:

 

"That is just as much the unit fault as it is the Scout!"

 

True. That is the very point I tried to get across. How could the Troop allow him to start his Eagle Project when he had no (or very little chance) to get advanced? I have a feeling there is a ASM who in the mind set of everyone gets Eagle. Something of an "Eagle Factory"

 

"If you think that they will be VERY unpleasant, you might also invite a knowledgeable and skillful Commissioner or representative of your District Advancement Committee to be there as impartial witness."

 

That is already in the planning stage. I am experienced with dealing with unpleasant people (law enforcement investigator) but an impartial witness is trying to be rounded up. I will have no problem dealing with her. It will be as pleasant as I can make it. My wife has already told me to leave my cuffs at home.

 

"You may find out that the Scout has held a position of responsibility or has good reason to think that he has."

 

We have one ASM whose only job is run Troopmaster and keep records. My feeling is that the troop records are very accurate. During the Committee meeting, it was brought up that a leadership position had been offered but he did nothing with the opportunity.

 

"Put an Eagle Scout application in front of him or a printed set of the requirements. Let him run through the requirements one by one and verify that he has met the requirement. Start off with the ones that he clearly has done. When his mother starts to talk and it is virtually certain that she will, stop the discussion and, in a polite and friendly way, tell her that it will be his Eagle Scout and he will be the one going before the Eagle Board of Review so will she please let him describe and substantiate that he has met the requirement. You may need to do this several times and it may get a bit pointed.

 

Good idea.

 

I think I am more irritated at the Troop than the boy. This should have been addressed long before now.

 

Thanks for the input.

[standerson 21]

Sorry, missed this one:

 

"In our largish troop, our ASM-Advancement tracks the status of all fellows who are 16 years old. We assume that since they are still around, most of these fellows are interested in earning Eagle. The ASMs job is to spot "fatal flaws" like the one described here and facilitate the scout in finding a solution. While there is still plenty of time."

 

That very thing was brought up in the meeting. That postion is being developed for our troop (35 boys)

 

 

 

[NeilLup 13]

""You may find out that the Scout has held a position of responsibility or has good reason to think that he has."

 

We have one ASM whose only job is run Troopmaster and keep records. My feeling is that the troop records are very accurate. During the Committee meeting, it was brought up that a leadership position had been offered but he did nothing with the opportunity. " "

 

Oh my! Based on this, he very likely has met the requirement. There have some clarifications coming out of the National Advancement group making it very clear that there can be no performance requirements put on the Position of Responsibility, only that the Scout hold the position. For POR credit to stop, the Scout must be formally removed from the position.

 

If the conversation went something like this:

 

SM: Would you like to be a Troop Instructor

 

Scout: Sure

 

Then arguably, he holds the position from that moment. Until and unless he is formally removed from that position, either explicitly or because all officers stand down at a certain time and are reappointed, arguably he has held the position and met the requirement.

 

Upon appeal, he might well win this one.

 

You may not want to hear this and may disagree. But I believe that is the current interpretation.