New "Youth Protection" Requirements for T-2C-1C

[skeptic 993]

While punching might not be the best suggestion in many instances, especially in school. standing up to the bully is very important at some point. What really bothers me in some instances of this in school, and probably other places, even scouts, is that too often the instigator is not the one to get caught. Or in some cases, the one being bullied finally stands up for him or herself, but is expelled or punished at the same level as the one really responsible. Over-reaction by adults is just as harmful as no reaction.

 

Another element that is too often the case is that the scout or boy who is being bullied often brings it on himeself by saying or doing things regularly that simply annoy others in some manner. When this is done simply due to immaturity or need for attention, it still is not understood very well by peers; sometimes even we, as adults, may not initially pick up on it. But, to be fair, boys who are teased and ignored, and girls too I suspect, very often continue to repeat the same behaviour that made them the butt of the others to start with.

 

Still, the requirements are useful in our current society. Whether they really do much good, as Beavah has said, will only be seen over time. Much of the problem starts, like most, in the home. Today, when parental supervision is so sorely lacking, sibling issues often export themselves to school, scouts, and other places. Media continues to glamorize questionable character in sports and entertainment, and politicians publicly insult and denigrate each other. We reap what we sow.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

I am not sure every post has been read, so I will repeat some of my first post. I remember when I stuck up against the neighborhood bully, I punched him square in the nose and he oddly enough didnt go down or crying off to his mother. He came at me with full force fury that left me with a split lip and a black eye and the experience not to stand up to him anymore. I understand that sometimes the bully backs down, but I would caution adults who encourage their charges to punch the bully have a Plan B if the bully goes medival on the kids behind.

[evmori 11]

Ed

When you are the responsible adult and you you not only know that the bullying is taking place but you condone it and pretend not to know about it, then you are indeed one of the bullies.

 

BW

 

In your opinion, Bob. Sure if I see a kid getting beat up or a group of kids standing around hurling insults at another kid I will try to put a stop to it. That's not what I was talking about. Just ignoring someone & not including them in your group isn't bullying. It might be ignorant & mean, but not bullying. But some want to include this type of behavior under bullying. This has no place as a rank requirement.

 

Yeah Beav, I would bet 10 years down the road, when studies are done, they will find nothing has changed!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Beavah 205]

Yah, interestin' discussion, let's keep with some of the ideas and suggestions and thoughts.

 

Both scouts I mentioned did have their own "gangs" -- the problems were occurring within a patrol.

 

Yah, I would take a moment to reflect how Patrol Method was being used in the troop then, eh? A patrol can simply be an administrative grouping. It is that in most troops. For patrol method to work for this kind o' thing, the patrol as a group has to be faced with a common set of real challenges that they succeed or fail at together. In a sports team, that's facing the opponent. In a military unit, it's facing the drill sergeant or the enemy. In a patrol, that might be inter-patrol competitions, or outings or activities that make for real challenges and tax the abilities of the group. In a mixed-age patrol, that might be the challenge of helpin' younger guys. Think about upping the challenge for the patrols to get the kids to come together because they need each other - every single member!

 

The second scout I mentioned responded to the taunting by punching, and it only got him ostracized at school and in his patrol.

 

Yah, IMO this is an example of behavior that isn't bullying, it's a reaction to being pestered and annoyed for attention, by a lad who isn't reading the social cues being communicated by other boys. Like skeptic describes, this is fairly common. Perhaps the classic is the annoying younger sibling who doesn't accept the message "hey, I want some space right now" and keeps pestering his older brother. So the older brother naturally "ups" the strength of the message... and keeps upping it until the message gets across.

 

A lad who repeatedly pesters or annoys others for attention and doesn't "read" the negative response well or ignores it (or enjoys it) gets others to "up" the strength of the message into personal criticism. If then he responds physically to the criticism it will get him ostrasized. This happens sometimes with ADHD and Asperger's kids, eh?

 

Adults can best help it by talkin' to the lad in question and giving him tools to recognize social cues or ways of gaining positive attention. And by talkin' to the other lads in the patrol and giving them tools for more clearly communicating their social needs in ways the other lad might understand (and also to help 'em understand the disability so they don't think the guy is being a deliberate pain, but rather a brother in need of special consideration on their part because he thinks they're cool).

 

Here's another thought:

 

* Praise the bully. Catch him doin' something right, or identify a legitimate strength or good characteristic. Everybody likes genuine praise, but in order to accept it, the bully has to recognize the person giving it as of high enough social standing so as not to be bullied.

 

I reckon schools could do a lot better job by givin' the kids with strong personalities who aren't academically successful some other opportunities to be recognized as valued. For scout leaders, it's learnin' the strengths of our kids and recognizing and playing to their strengths.

 

As adults, figurin' out how to navigate all the many issues and challenges of adolescents is part of the fun of Scouting, eh? I don't reckon the "bullying" label and all the negative response it generates is that helpful. Either the scouters understand and enjoy being alert to the needs and characters of their scouts, or they don't. IMO when there is bullyin' going on in a troop, it's usually because the adults don't. I don't know how to teach that, either - there's just somethin' natural about the scouters who do it well.

 

I recommend folks go out and read How Full is Your Bucket by Rath & Clifton. I expect adults who follow its guidelines will do a better job at preventing bullying than any silly policy or program.

 

But I sure would love to hear other ideas and suggestions too!

 

Beavah

 

[scoutmomma 10]

The second scout I mentioned responded to the taunting by punching, and it only got him ostracized at school and in his patrol.

 

Yah, IMO this is an example of behavior that isn't bullying, it's a reaction to being pestered and annoyed for attention, by a lad who isn't reading the social cues being communicated by other boys. Like skeptic describes, this is fairly common. Perhaps the classic is the annoying younger sibling who doesn't accept the message "hey, I want some space right now" and keeps pestering his older brother. So the older brother naturally "ups" the strength of the message... and keeps upping it until the message gets across.

 

A lad who repeatedly pesters or annoys others for attention and doesn't "read" the negative response well or ignores it (or enjoys it) gets others to "up" the strength of the message into personal criticism. If then he responds physically to the criticism it will get him ostrasized. This happens sometimes with ADHD and Asperger's kids, eh?

 

And where do you get the idea that this scout was being taunted because he wasn't reading social cues? You really are whistling in the wind here. Believe me, the taunting was not due to one scout misreading social cues. Considering it had been going on since October before we found out about it, it was bullying.

 

I'm not looking for suggestions on how to deal with these particular situations. We didn't handle the first situation well, but I'm satisfied that we are addressing the second situation in an appropriate manner.

 

Beavah, perhaps your comments might be helpful to someone else, but they really don't apply to either situation in this troop. You are lacking in information to truly understand what was going on in either case, and I'm not interested in spelling out more details until you know the entire situation. I only brought these situations up in the first place to explain why I was glad to have BSA add these rank requirements -- because they helped us in dealing with the latter incident, and offered us a platform on which to speak to our scouts about bullying without pointing any fingers at boys who have the typical adolescent reticence about having unwanted attention paid to them.

 

I understand that not everyone agrees that these requirements have been added. That's fine -- we're all entitled to our opinions. But I'm glad to have them added, and I'm tired of having others here tell me that we're not dealing with the situation properly within our troop because it's not bullying.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, scoutmomma, this is a general discussion, eh? As you mention, I can't know your circumstances and don't know your kids. All any of us can do is take examples gleaned from a few words of text and comment on 'em and offer our own.

 

Hopefully someone who is readin' gets a good idea somewhere along the way. If one thing didn't work, maybe they think of another. Or maybe they say "Hey, I know a kid just like that!" and walk away with a new approach.

 

Your examples just triggered some thoughts in my head, is all. My own personal thoughts; might not have any relevance to your unit. The behavior yeh described seemed a bit unusual for boys to me, and smacked of somethin' untold that adults who missed the bullyin' may also have missed. Yah, and I guess that and what yeh described made me uncomfortable. It'd get me to visit a unit more frequently to keep an eye out and offer more coachin'.

 

So now yeh know that reaction is possible, eh? Might even be happenin' among some of your parents. But if a comment doesn't fit, don't use it. Or if yeh disagree with it now, store it away and maybe it's an idea or way of thinkin' that might be useful down the road, or one to share with another troop at a roundtable. Whatever.

 

We're all just doin' our best to share ideas and perspectives so we can get better at helpin' kids.

 

I'd still encourage yeh to pick up the Bucket book, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[dScouter15 11]

I'll throw my two cents in:

 

I think the BSA needs to more clearly specify how they define "bullying". A lot of the conversation on this thread, up to this time, has involved how there are many definitions for bullying. I think that if they provided a clear, precise definition of the type of behavior they are trying to address, units will have an easy time developing programming to enable scouts to complete the requirement.

 

The cynic in me thinks that these requirements are a convenient way for the BSA to be able to say, "We're taking an aggressive stance against bullying!" Regardless of the motivations for having the requirements, I think that they are appropriate for the T-2-1 group of requirements. Bullying is common around 5th and 6th grades, when Scouts would likely be working on T-2-1 requirements. Unfortunately, bullying also occurs within Scout troops. Thus, it seems logical to encourage Scouts to learn how to handle bully early in their Scouting career.

 

I think that the biggest problem in these types of requirements - regarding bullying, drugs, alcohol, sex, etc - is that, to be effective, they need to be targeted at specific ages. Obviously, the best way to address a 5th grader is much different from the best way to address a 12th grader. The BSA does have some age-targeted materials available, of varying quality. However, since the requirements being discussed are one-size-fits-all, I don't see them being very effective in actually combating the bullying problem.

 

I guess, though, since they're pretty vague, it gives the unit and SM a greater ability to tailor and target their program to the needs of the scouts in their unit.