Has this ever happened to you?

[scoutingagain 20]

We have never submitted anything to council other than signed Troopmaster COH/advancement reports. They have never been questioned. We do the same as Ed and Beavah suggest. When a scout reaches Life and gets all the MBs he needs for Eagle, at that time I as the Adv. Chair for the troop will ask for the council's records for the scout and compare them to what we have.

 

I had one case where the council did not have a record of the scout earning Personal Fitness. I gave them a copy of the COH/Advancement report that we had submitted a year earlier showing the MB on it and they unpdated their records on the spot.

 

SA

 

 

[AvidSM 11]

In my council, they do not see the blue cards (merit badge applications). They only see the advancement report, with all the boys listed with their MB earned, signed by the Scoutmaster (me) and two committee members. We now can print this report directly from TroopMaster.

 

The process seems to be run on the honor system, with the troop advancement chair being the key player. We have a District-maintained list of approved MB Councelors. And, there is a process by which a person gets on this list - it involves filling out BSA form #34405 and a BSA adult application if the person is not registered.

 

When my troop advancment chair fills out the advancement report to Council, does she check the names of the councelors on the blue cards against the approved counselor list? - I don't think so. And, the majority of the merit badges earned by our boys is at summer camp, which for us is out of Council and has a different list.

 

Blue cards are more for the Scout and the Troop for keeping track of merit badges. If we don't see a completed and signed blue card from the boy, then his name does not go on the advancmenet report. If one was submitted, and then lost, we still have a record of it in form of our copy of the report and the TroopMaster record.

 

If Council does not have a record of a boy earning a badge, it's a copy of the advancement report they want, not the blue card. We have had to do this for the last two Eagle candidates that we submit paperwork for.

[John-in-KC 311]

I have to agree with Avid. For the young men who've achieved Eagle in my Troop, we get the ScoutNet record as the young man is approaching ELSP completion. We scrub the record, if there's a discrepancy, we cut a new advancement report. While I was the keeper of Troopmaster for us, I could say, pretty darn certainly, that I had a handle on our unit advancement!

 

SM did the program stuff... assigning Counselors and signing blue cards to indicate his permission to start a MB.

 

I did the admin stuff... keep the records.

 

Pretty simple division of labor. He got the fun, I got to make sure there were no panic attacks 3 days before the EBOR.

[GaHillBilly 10]

Beavah wrote:

"Once da record has been entered into ScoutNet (either directly online by the troop or by the council registrar), that's the official record."

 

OK, I'm still learning.

 

It seems everyone agrees that ScoutNet is it, right? And, other records may be the basis of a submission to ScoutNet, but once it's in ScoutNet, the rank or MB is final. And, until it IS in ScoutNet, it's just a gleam in the Scout's eye.

 

Right?

 

Questions:

1. Are only completed ranks and MBs recorded in ScoutNet, or are partials ever recorded?

2. Can the troop advancement person enter ScoutNet data in every council, or does the council retain control sometimes?

3. Once the data is in ScoutNet, can it be rescinded or reversed?

 

These are, unfortunately, not very theoretical questions for me and my son. I thought our separation from the troop would be cordial. It was not. He'd completed all 1st & 2nd class requirements, except knife/axe/saw (2nd) and civic meeting (1st), plus spirit / conference / BOR, but will apparently now have to restart as a new Tenderfoot. Assuming, of course that he IS a Tfoot. We've got a signed card, but I haven't yet been able to confirm that there was ever a submission to the council. (Paperwork has been one of the issues.)

 

We're going to be betwixt and between for several months at least, as we look for another troop, and we've got to get it right this time. It's not all bad. Of all the troop positions, the one he thinks he'd enjoy most is "Instructor". So we are going to redo from scratch, document the he@@ out of everything (diary, log sheets, digital photos & video, etc.) and plan for him to complete every requirement with the idea of being ready to teach it at a moment's notice. (We're even working on a "Prepared to Teach" toolbox -- his being asked to instruct with no notice, no prep and inadequate materials was another issue.)

 

But, this will all be moot with respect to advancement (if not with respect to actual learning) if we can't get it right on the records.

 

GaHillBilly

 

 

 

[John-in-KC 311]

Ga Hill Billy,

 

ScoutNet is a database developed and managed by the National Council. At this point, most local councils are operating in it. It is how BSA does recharter and internet advancement.

 

It is the "database of record" as far as BSA and your Council is concerned.

 

ScoutNet receives input from one of two ways these days:

- Someone delivers a hard copy (paper and/or floppy) Advancement Report to your Council Scout Office.

- Using BSA Internet Advancement, your unit uploads info to the database. IIRC, the data is pended for a hardcopy signature followup, then it populates into the database.

 

Either way, the unit reports to Council that young Jimmy Smith has moved forward in Scouting.

 

ScoutNet covers completed Ranks and Merit Badges within the Boy Scout youth advancement system. It also covers OA info and selected other awards, I will let those who work beyond basic advancement cover that.

 

The unit OTOH and whatever recordkeeping method it uses covers requirements for rank and partial MBs.

 

Yours and your sons BSA membership cards have a barcode and a member number on them; that is one of two ways they actually find you in the system. (Clerical staff can search on your last name too, but there are a lot of Smiths and Jones in BSA).

 

To answer two of your last questions, here is the info from BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, Stock 33088 (2007 printing).

 

(p26)Record Keeping

Each troop is responsible for keeping its own records and reporting advancement to the local council service scenter. This is done on an advancement report form. One copy is kept by the troop and two are sent to the council with an order for badges and awards. (snip). A troop/team record beook, to be maintained by the troop scribe, is available.

 

(p44) Extended Absence from Scouting

Many times Scouts become active again after fropping from other units because of other interests, moving within the community, or relocating to another part of the country. Youth who were members of a "dropped" unit also may become active again.

 

A proper term for such a Scout is "separated-reregistered." When this happens, the tenure for a Scouts rank is often questioned.

 

Upon reregistration, the youth should assume the last attained rank verified by documentation from the council service center. His previous verifiable service time in that rank applies toward qualification for the next rank and should commence with his reregistration and with guidelines set down by his new unit leader.

 

I hope all that helps.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[GaHillBilly 10]

John-in-KC wrote:

"Many times Scouts become active again after dropping from other units because of other interests, moving within the community, or relocating to another part of the country. Youth who were members of a "dropped" unit also may become active again."

 

 

Thanks for your information -- it's very helpful.

 

But, based on the quote above, it sounds like my son needs to affiliate (join) with another troop post-haste, lest he be dropped and have to re-register.

 

Is that right?

 

GaHillBilly

[scoutingagain 20]

"He'd completed all 1st & 2nd class requirements, except knife/axe/saw (2nd) and civic meeting (1st), plus spirit / conference / BOR, "

 

As the unit's Adv. Chair I would look for one of several possible sources of documentation for a transferring scout.

 

A signed Troopmaster Advancement History.

 

A council Scoutnet report.

 

Any advancement cards issued by the previous unit, MB cards(not blue cards, the award cards), rank cards, totin' chip etc.

 

The scout's handbook with individual requirements signed.

 

No matter how uncordial your separation from your previous unit is/was they should provide you with an individual advancement history. As an advancement chair I can't imagine a set of circumstances I would deny a scout a copy of this information, even if for some reason we recommended to the council the youth be banned from scouting for some egregious reason.

 

Now the level of detail of that report could vary widely, depending on the level of diligence of the individual responsible for keeping the record. For example, our Troopmaster records do not show individual requirements for T - 1st class, until the rank is earned, including SMC and BOR.

 

Good luck.

 

 

SA

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, GA, both John-in-KC and scoutingagain gave yeh the lay of the land.

 

Council records are what counts going forward. Council records are created when a troop files completion of a badge or rank with the council. The only record of "partials" is with the MBC or the scout's book. There is no obligation for a new MBC or a new troop to accept a "partial", though most are pretty agreeable.

 

Any good new troop will be happy to help yeh get things straight. Most troops will accept blue cards, rank cards, Merit Badge cards or the word of the former troop if somethin' is missing from the ScoutNet records, then file the paperwork themselves if the old troop doesn't take care of it. The council, too, can do that directly if documentation comes to them.

 

We're all working for da kids, eh?

 

Your son's registration remains in force until re-registration time for his former troop (1 year after the last time the troop re-registered). In some councils, all units are on a different schedule; in some, every unit re-registers the same month (often January). At re-registration time, your former troop will drop your son's registration. So yah, there's some advantage to findin' a new troop before then. Why wait anyway? But it won't really affect paperwork and such; everyone should work with you either way.

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC 311]

Ga Hill Billy,

 

One way or another,

 

Your son will do a new youth member app.

You will do a new Scouter app.

 

You can expect to pay Council $1 per each of you to have them go in and keystroke your membership from Troop 123 to Troop 456.

 

You can expect to pay the "rest of the year" share of your new Troops dues.

 

Whenever recharter comes, then you do it all again.

 

BTW, for the simple reason of keeping continuity in your boy's life, I advocate finding that new Troop as something of a priority

 

Have fun. He'll be a HS senior before you know it!! (Eamonn and I can both tell you THAT!).

 

 

[SWScouter 34]

One thing to keep in mind is that the council is tasked to keep record of the advancement. This doesn't necessarily mean that these records have been entered in scoutnet; most likely it just means filing the advancement forms the units turn in. In a large council, they probably have not been entered and won't be until that scout earns Eagle. It just takes too much manpower.

 

Internet advancement is starting to be deployed around the country. Internet advancement allows the units to update the scoutnet database directly. I helped out with an internet advancement class last week at roundtable. It will be a pain for the units to get up to speed because the advancement data are not in scoutnet and the units will need to enter the data themselves. My suggestion was to enter the data for a scout when that scout next advanced. That way one doesn't need to spend hours at the onset to get everything up to date.

 

SWScouter

[Gold Winger 9]

"Any advancement cards issued by the previous unit, MB cards(not blue cards, the award cards), rank cards, totin' chip etc."

 

As a former advancement chair I'd have to say that the signed blue card is far more important. Just like the signed Handbook is more important than the rank card.

 

 

[GaHillBilly 10]

GoldWinger wrote: "As a former advancement chair I'd have to say that the signed blue card is far more important. Just like the signed Handbook is more important than the rank card."

 

That's good to know. They ought to add that info to the BSA "Handbook for Parents of New Scouts". ;-)

 

Again, thanks for all the information and help. As we move forward, much of this will be valuable.

 

Unfortunately, in my son's case it won't help with past work. The problem is that, because the troop wasn't doing advancement activities, I was the one that worked with my son, and checked him off on many of the requirements. I had permission and I had been approved by the committee as an ASM, though that never reached Council. But, when things went bad, I was accused of 'taking over from the boys' and 'doing too much for them'.

 

Like most situations, there's another side to that story, but it's not relevant. It's a small district, and the odds are my son's new SM will know his old SM, since he's active in the District. And so that's the story that will be told.

 

So, if we try to 'transfer' any of his completions, there's a good chance that he'll be looked at as trying to slide by without doing the work. The ONLY way I know to counter that story effectively is for the new SM to see that he's the absolute master of those skills.

 

Even this is a challenge, since many of the SM's (like his old one) aren't masters of those skills themselves. For example, on the last camp out with his old troop, the boys went on a 'nature walk' for the 1st class plant requirement. I'd pushed for this, but things already on the 'outs', so I didn't lead the walk. The ASM (former SM of a dying troop that merged) who did got over a third of his ID's wrong, and even corrected my son twice . . . incorrectly! (Sugar cane does NOT grow along the rivers in middle Tennessee, unless someone planted it there; the same is true for boxwood -- really Chinese privet -- and neither privet nor boxwood are native! Etc.)

 

So anyhow he's not only got to do it right, he's got to be able to prove it right as well. But then, since he'd like eventually to be a troop "Instructor" that's not so bad.

 

 

GaHillBilly

 

 

 

*********

 

One suggestion to the SMs and Unit Commissioner's here: please don't encourage a new parent volunteer to get 'trained', when all you really want are better stats for the Quality Unit award! My son's SM wanted me to get 'trained', so I've been to Roundtable and had Council Whitewater and YPT and Basic New Leader and SM Specific and will be going to OLS this weekend (not that they care now). The problem was, I assumed that all this meant they wanted me to do stuff.

 

I made the mistake of trying to plan and offer advancement opportunities to the boys other than my son. I felt guilty because he was the only one who was advancing! But, it turns our that my plans messed up their non-plans. I couldn't figure out how till just the other day.

 

But when I planned something, even though they approved it, it tied their hands. Because they planned the night before, or even on the way to the troop meeting, they'd think, "Omigosh, we've forgotten to do XYZ. Well, we'd better do it tonight. Oh yeah, GaHillBilly's doing ABC tonight. Darn. Now what?" In other, my plans forced them to plan to work around my plans, even though they had no plans.

 

Got it? ;-)

 

Anyhow, please don't train folks for the numbers. If you've got the numbers, turn them in. But, even I've been in Scouts long enough now to be sure Scouting's not about square knots and QU patches or even Silver Beaver awards. As they say, it's about the boys!

 

*********

 

 

[GaHillBilly 10]

Addendum to the above . . .

 

I should add that probably the SM originally thought he *did* want me to be involved with the troop. But if so, it would have been an idea he liked better than the reality, once my plans began to step on his last minute plans.

 

 

GaHillBilly