Reason for Denying Eagle

[wes89c 10]

I am a C.O.R. for a Troop that has a problem. It was discovered that a Life Scout "forged" the signature of a merit badge counselor for his Personal Fitness merit badge. The boy has admitted it and has now found a counselor who will sign the badge off for him. It is obvious that the boy does not have his heart in the program and is being pushed by mom & dad. I'd like some opinions on whether the troop committee has a valid reason for denying Eagle.

 

P.S. - his attendance at troop meetings and campouts the past 2 years has been WEAK as well.

[TheScout 10]

Yes. One of the requirements is to live up to the Scout Oath and Laws. He clearly did not. Giving him the rank who be disrespect to all the boys who earn it.

[Hunt 11]

I think you'd have to take a lot more facts into consideration before deciding what to do. For example, how old is this Scout? If he still has a year or two before he turns 18, you don't have to deny him Eagle--you can simply ask him to take steps to overcome the issues he has. If he's about to turn 18, it seems to me that you have to look at his Scouting career as a whole. Is this an aberration in an otherwise sterling career? Is he remorseful? Why did he forge the signature--because he didn't do the work, or for for some other reason? (For example, if he forged the signature because he lost the blue card from summer camp and manufactured a replacement, I wouldn't consider that as bad as faking one because the requirements weren't done--both would be bad, but they would weigh differently in the balance.)

Weak attendance, while troubling, is probably not enough. If he met the requirements of 6 months active and 6 months POR after achieving Life, he's met the requirement.

Nobody lives the Scout Oath and Law perfectly. If the standard was really living up to them with no deviations, there would be no rank advancement at all. The issue has to be whether, looking at the big picture and this Scout's overall character and accomplishments, he's met the requirements.

[msnowman 10]

I agree that he didn't live up to the ideals of the Scout Law. However, I have to wonder whether the Scout Law leaves no room for remorse/regret and learning from ones....poor judgement (to be gracious).

 

Setting attendence aside for a moment. The boy has admitted to the transgression and has taken steps to rectify it. Now I'm not saying rush right out and give him his Eagle just because he found someone to sign his MB card. Right now he is not Eagle material (in my opinion).

 

But, I don't think a blanket "now he can never be an Eagle because he did this once" would be fair either. If he wants to be an Eagle he should be allowed the opportunity to prove that he can live the Scout Oath/Law, and then come back before a BOR to prove himself. I don't believe that would take anything away from boys who earned it before him who didn't have to look themselves in the mirror each morning knowing they lied and have to rebuild that trust. We all get and need second chances in life.

 

Scouting is life, the rest is just details.

 

YiS

Michelle

[Mike F 10]

Wes,

 

I agree with gist of Hunt's note.

It's a major issue if he didn't complete the MB properly and forged the signature to get around the MB counselor. Were his actions an intentional act to "cheat" his way to Eagle, or did he just get into a bind and use poor judgment? A possible example might be if he had completed all of the work, faced a deadline on getting requirements all turned in, and the MB counselor was out of town for extended period. I would consider this a more minor example of poor judgment -- he should have contacted SM and Advancement Chair and worked with them to find an alternative, instead of taking things into his own hand (literally).

 

Just finding another MB counselor who will agree to sign is not enough. You need to find out why the original MB councelor didn't sign it. It's possible the scout hadn't completed all of the requirements associated with the comprehensive 12-week physical fitness program. This MB takes a lot of work. If scout hasn't completed all of the required periodic fitness tests to show progress, etc., then he hasn't completed the requirements and no MB counselor should be allowed to sign anything. The requirements are tough, but clear. There is no gray area - they were either completed to the letter or they were not. If the scout has run out of time to restart the 12-week clock before he turns 18, I'm sorry. Scouting is not about earning Eagle. It's better he learn a bitter lesson in integrity and in making plans and sticking to them, than to compromise the integrity of the program for everyone.

 

I hope some of these discussion assumptions are not true and he has time to learn and recover from his mistake.

 

If he has time left before 18, I'd start the recovery process with a SM conference to set things straight. And would consider a troop BoR to review the advancement situation and recovery plan.

 

Good luck!

 

-mike

[Venividi 35]

I see two sub-currents in the post:

 

>The boy has admitted it and has now found a counselor who will sign >the badge off for him.

What is not clear is did he find a counselor that will sign because he/she sees evidence that the requirements were met, or did he find a counselor that was willing to pencil whip the requirements?. I raise this since it was phrased as finding a counselor to "sign off" rather than as a counselor to "work with". As much as we would like all MB counselors to hold fast to requirements, we all know that there are those that pencil whip the requirements. Which leads to the question of why the scout is finding a counsellor, and not using one specified by the SM. Personal Fitness is one of those badges that (in my opinion), each troop should have at least one parent that serves as counselor for scouts in their troop, because it is Eagle required, and does not require any specialized knowledge. This would aid in quality control.

 

>It is obvious that the boy does not have his heart in the program >and is being pushed by mom & dad.

If the scout appears to only be going through the motions and is doing it for Mom & Dad rather than himself, is he really exhibiting scout spirit? I would recommend talking with the SM about meeting with the young man to discuss the obvious lack of heart, and whether that is consistent with the scout spirit requirement.

 

Don't think of it as a situation of denying Eagle. Think of it as Eagle has to be earned by the scout; - by his meeting all requirements, including being trustworthy (part of the scout spirit rqmt). This puts the responsibility on the scout, and not on the SM and BOR.

 

A question to consider is whether you as COR, the SM, the committee members that serve on Eagle BOR's, and the committee members as a whole are on the same page with what constitutes meeting the requirements as stated. It becomes difficult if some parties see scout spirit as being a role model for other scouts to follow with respect to trustworthy, loyal, helpful,etc., and others see acceptable scout spirit as not having been arrested in the last month.

[wes89c 10]

Thanks to all of you who did reply to my post. A lot of good thoughts and things for us to consider as we move forward.

 

A few things I left out of the initial post:

-the boy turns 18 this coming weekend.

-the boy met with the SM last week and expressed remorse.

-the boy has sworn that he did do the requirements (his older brother, who is an Eagle, also called the SM from college and stated they did the requirements together).

-he started the work with a counselor from his old troop (we are a start-up troop, 3 years old). This begs the question that I want to ask him "why didn't you meet with your counselor to finish the badge the proper way"?

Again, many thanks for the help. I've been a scouter for many years, chaired my old troop advancement committee, and served on my District Advancement Committee. Never ran into this situation before.

[Mike F 10]

Well - dang - that's what I was afraid of. (Turns 18 this weekend.)

 

Important issue is whether or not he did everything in the MB requirements. There are a lot of written requirements. (http://www.meritbadge.com/mb/010.htm) Keeping an exercise log, recording test results every 2 weeks, etc. If he did the requirements, these will all be complete and should be inspected.

 

I think your question about why he didn't use the counselor he had is a very fair question. I would consider having a special conference with yourself, SM, CC, and Advancement Chair. Include the scout. Get all the questions out on the table and clear the air.

 

Or you can skip the above and say he didn't meet the "trustworthy" requirement, so final results of MB investigation are irrelevant.

 

As COR, you definitely have the right and responsibility to be deeply involved. I'm sure the Charter Org you represent wants the troop they sponsor to maintain their integrity.

 

-mike

[John-in-KC 311]

I agree with what Mike F said, by and large.

 

Since you've served on the District Committee, I trust you understand this is a time you want those stalwart fellows around. Hopefully the District Advancement Chairman (or a rep) and your Unit Commissioner are available. Depending on the potential for the parents to "go ugly", you might even want a stenographer for the meeting.

 

Why?

 

If the parents go ugly, the excrement hitting the fan will strike at the Chartered Partner and the Troop Committee. You're the man on the ground; you're the one who has to guage how likely it is the parents will go ugly. Since you've served on the District Committee, you understand the advantages of having the full protection of the Scouting system behind you. You, as the COR, are ENTITLED to it.

 

Let us know how this plays out.

 

YIS(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[SemperParatus 1]

IMO, until the boy apologizes to the old counselor for forging his/her name, he really hasn't come to terms with his transgression. Sure, he can express 'remorse' to the SM for what he did (probably, moreso for getting caught), but an apology to the old counselor for 'stealing' his name would go a long way in my book towards making amends and demonstrating maturity. That is something he needs to do on his own, rather then being told. Happy birthday!

[purcelce 11]

Very interesting...I sat on Eagle BOR for 4 Scouts last night.

So here's my 2 cents.

 

If the kid is truely remorseful, and has "paid for his sins" then sign off his application and send him to the BOR.

 

Last summer 3 Scouts that worked with me at summer camp were fired for underage drinking on camp property. Now this is a bigger nono than the forger. All three of these young men "did their time, and paided their debt to scouting" All three of these young men are now Eagle Scouts.

 

The special thing is I was the mb counselor for one of the kid's last mb (after the incident), and was invited to the other two's Eagle COH, I was even bestowed the Eagle mentor pin from one of the youngsters.

 

YIS

Cary P.

[dan 10]

If I was sitting on this Eagle BOR, I would turn him down. But I would make sure he had all of information, in writing on how to file an appeal.

The reason I say this is that he has found someone to sign off that he has done the requirments, and not really go over the MB with him.

[KoreaScouter 13]

How was it discovered? What would the lad have done if it wasn't discovered? How is it obvious that he doesn't have his heart in the program and is being pushed by mom/dad? I guess my point is that I don't know the boy. Are there any among us who haven't done things we're not exactly proud of, that if given a mulligan we would have done differently? Things that, fortunately for us, did not knock us down so hard we couldn't get up? If it's likely the Scout made his mistake with incredibly bad timing, but it was otherwise an anomaly, you know that better than anyone. Let him explain it to an impartial BOR -- if he can convince them, he deserves it.

 

KS

 

[wes89c 10]

Many thanks, again, to my fellow scouters out there. It's great to have a forum like this to seek out sage wisdom from others. When you are close to the situation, you can become jaded a bit. Always good to get feedback from folks not close to the situation.

 

As an "f.y.i.", the SM, Advancement Chair, and I have conferenced on this. I like the idea of us meeting with the boy as a group, and it will be documented. Also a great suggestion to request all the logs from the work he did. One would hope that he did present these to the "new" counselor.

 

YIS,

 

WES

[mk9750 11]

Wes,

 

I feel your pain!

 

I've been in almost exactly the same situation. A Scout transfered to our Troop a few months ahead of his 18th birthday. He worked his tail off to finish the last few MBs and his project, but just before his B.O.R., but after his birthday, we found out he had lied about why he transfered to us. Turns out he had been kicked out of his Troop for leaving camp (more than once) and bring both pot and wine back to the camp, where he shared it with some of his buddies.

 

The SM, the District Advancement Chair and I (Troop Adv. Chair) all believed that although a youthful mistake (or three) should not necesarily prevent a young man from earning Eagle, the dishonesty he displayed immediately preceeding his B.O.R. needed to be resolved before he should be approved by a B.O.R. The District Advancement Chair attempted to obtain a one year waiver to complete his B.O.R. right around his 19th birthday, with the hope he could develop evidence he had lived the Scout Oath and Law, particularly by staying Clean and Trustworthy. National denied the request, and with that, the B.O.R. felt they had to turn him down.

 

Despite this boy's transgression, I truly believe he is Eagle material. He made a couple mistakes that, had they been made at 16 instead of 17 years 8 months, he could have overcome and made Eagle. Because his timing was bad, he was out of luck. This has been one of the frustrations I have encountered in our great program. I've had to vote yes for three different boys at Eagle Boards of Review, even though I just didn't have the warm and fuzzies. The one guy I was forced to vote no for deserved the rank quite a bit more.

 

Best of luck to you and your Scout. And if I were to offer you any advice, one thing you might want to keep front and center as you go through this is the impression whatever you do will have on the rest of the Scouts in your Troop.

 

Mark