dkurtenbach

2 hours ago, MattR said:

The crux of the problem, from my experience, is how to develop patrol independence.  . . . 

As an aside, when I was SM we had one week a month for patrols to figure out their own activity. The PLC did create a suggested list of activities to choose from. That was a lot of work for the patrols. It was also a hard sell for the adults. They wanted efficiency and my ideas about patrol method were not convincing enough.  (Emphasis added.)

A valiant effort.  But I think the time of real patrols in the Boy Scouts of America has passed.  For most troop adults/parents, the only things that they will every really know about patrols will be the explanations they hear from very young Scouts working on Scout rank requirements 3.a. and 3.b. and Tenderfoot rank requirements 2.a. and 2.c. -- that patrols are about symbols and meals.  Scout rank:   3.a. Explain the patrol method. Describe the types of patrols that are used in your troop.  3.b.  Become familiar with your patrol name, emblem, flag, and yell. Explain how these items create patrol spirit.  Tenderfoot rank:  2.a.  On the campout, assist in preparing one of the meals. Tell why it is important for each patrol member to share in meal preparation and cleanup.  2.c.  Explain the importance of eating together as a patrol.

The writers of the Journey to Excellence Troop Scorecard think Patrol Method is about leadership development rather than team development, even though we have a separate Method of Scouting for Leadership Development (which is also now one of the Aims of Scouting).  #9.  Patrol method: Use the patrol method to develop youth leaders.  Bronze:  The troop has patrols, and each has a patrol leader.  There is an SPL, if more than one patrol. The PLC meets at least four times a year.  Silver:  Achieve Bronze, plus PLC meets at least six times. The troop conducts patrol leader training.  Gold:  Achieve Silver, plus PLC meets at least ten times. At least one Scout has attended an advanced training course, such as NYLT or Order of the Arrow Conference.

And the experts on Troop meetings provide time on their model troop meeting agenda for "Breakout Groups."  Patrols don't even have the dignity of designated Patrol Meetings.

Who knows.  Maybe the powers that be decided that youth get plenty of teamwork training through their sports teams, so teamwork training through patrols just isn't important anymore.  Maybe Patrol Method simply got eclipsed by the popularity of individual achievement in Scouting through Advancement and Leadership/Positions of Responsibility.  Or maybe the advent of the New Scout Patrol (designed to help Scouts advance to First Class more rapidly) and its ripple effect (age-based patrols) was the kiss of death:  Younger patrols without older, experienced Scouts leading and teaching just can't do much on their own or contribute much to troop programs; and most troops have more younger Scouts than older Scouts.

Just now, fred8033 said:

I think the scoutmaster found them effective.  

Thanks.

12 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I worked with a troop that had at least 35+ checklists.  SPL pre-campout planning checklist.  ASPL pre-campout checklists for visiting the patrols to make sure they were filling out their PL pre-campout checklist and submitting them back to the ASPL.  SPL PLC running checklist.  QM pre-campout checklist.  QM inventory-checkout lists.  I swear the troop had at least two and up to five/six checklists for each position in the troop.  IMHO, the scouts earned a mini-MBA by being in the troop.  

Putting aside your own negative views about checklists generally, did that troop find them to be an effective tool?

6 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I get the impression that your premise is that we need to create structures to force the patrol method. 

No, my premise is that in the current troop-centric program in ScoutsBSA, patrols have very little to do as organizational units within the troop, and maintaining patrol integrity is not important.  This makes it difficult for true teamwork and team responsibility -- the object of the Patrol Method -- to develop.  To really develop Patrol Method, we need a Scouting environment in which each patrol has a lot of things to do that matter to them (fun and exciting program, learning skills, advancement), the patrol has to face challenges getting them done, and the patrol has to spend a lot of time together doing them -- away from the rest of the troop.  

6 hours ago, ParkMan said:

You want to have patrol method, then have patrol method.

Just click my heels together?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ6VT7ciR1o

24 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Could you just simplify this as?

Patrol meetings

• Go over items needed for PLC
• Prepare for events
  • Conduct review of any just completed activity
  • Prepare for monthly camping trip & other upcoming events
  • Prepare for next inter-patrol competition
  • Practice skills needed for upcoming events
• Work on advancement
• Set the agenda for next time
• Play a game

All kinds of planning and structure for patrols is not really needed.  Youth respond when that have to get stuff done.  So, instead of creating some artificial process, just focus the patrols on doing what they need to.  In other word, treat patrol & troop meetings as working meetings where stuff gets done.  Put all this stuff we do in meetings in that context.  Let form follow function.

 

Not really, no, because it isn't about getting stuff done. This is all about planning and structure for the purpose of developing patrol-teams. It is about building the team that (eventually) will learn how to work together to get stuff done. Every month there are new troop projects for the patrol-teams to work on and new tasks they develop for themselves.  Every week there are new decisions, new information, and changes in plan that the patrol-teams have to wrestle with while still working toward their objectives. Every person on the team has responsibilities that are important to success. Detailed agendas and checklists are tools to help carry out the team-building function by keeping their goals, objectives, tasks, decisions, information, glitches, and assignments in front of them.

The suggested three-week agenda is really just an outline.  In actual practice, I'd ask the Patrol Leaders to use a much more detailed checklist that they and their Patrol Scribes fill out with names, dates, times, gear lists, questions to be answered, information to be passed on, decisions already made, and decisions still to be made.  

3 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

That's pretty good (impressive actually), but that puts a lot of responsibility on program planning at the troop level. Which might be fine, but because the Patrol Leaders won't be dragged along by the program at weekly Troop meetings, the program agendas will have to be more detailed and specific so they can follow the expectations. 

I don't think this is a bad thing, my troop was sort of this way when I was a scout. But, I remember that our PLs were very very mature (they all had drivers licenses), and we had good adult resources. Eight to ten scouts require more room that many homes can handle. 

It is important to remember that the Patrol Meeting must be fun enough for the scouts to want to attend every week because skipping a patrol meeting is easier than a troop meeting.

Barry

Good insights.  Yes, the annual/semi-annual/quarterly Troop Planning Conference is critical, and the Patrol Leaders Council has a lot of responsibility under this program.  Outings and program need to be worked out months in advance and broken down into very specific assignments for each patrol.  The Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters have to be on top of the plan and what every patrol needs to be doing to carry out the program, as well as making reservations and arrangements that the PLC can't.  And the Patrol Leader -- Patrol ASM relationship is where the rubber meets the road.  

And yeah -- it really has to be fun! 

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

OK, so what are the patrol agendas the other 3 weeks? 

29 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Another idea would be to focus the Scouts first on what they need to accomplish.  As an adult team, gently steer what needs to get done into patrol sized pieces.

I'd focus less on than trying to figure out how to structure patrols or meetings to support patrols.  Instead I'd think about the work the troop needs to get done and structure that work so that patrols can work on it.  Then, focus everything you do to enable that.  

I suspect what you'll find is that the patrols will have more purpose.  There will be a need to work together.  That need to accomplish things as a group will drive camaraderie.

Let me suggest the following, which could apply whether you're doing separate patrol meetings or just breaking down the troop's work into patrol-size pieces:

TROOP TYPICAL MONTHLY CYCLE:
Week 1 – Patrol gatherings
Patrol Leaders Council
Week 2 – Patrol gatherings
Week 3 – Patrol gatherings
Monthly Outing
Week 4 – Troop meeting
- Review of the Monthly Outing just held
- Preview of the next Monthly Outing and other upcoming troop activities
- Inter-patrol competitions
Patrol Leaders Council meeting

PATROL TYPICAL MONTHLY CYCLE:
Week 1
- OPENING (assigned to a patrol member)
- BUSINESS MEETING
     = Announcements (meeting dates, times, and locations; next Monthly Outing, other upcoming activities and service projects; next Inter-patrol competitions)
     = Review of last Monthly Outing
     = Review of Inter-patrol competitions
     = Overview of next Monthly Outing, skills emphasis (if any), special gear requirements (if any), tasks assigned to Patrol for the Outing, transportation, attendance check
     = Review of patrol member advancement status and needs
     = Assignments for next Monthly Outing, next Inter-patrol competitions, next Patrol gathering (taking advancement requirement needs into account)
     = Matters for Patrol Leader to take to PLC
- SKILLS PRACTICE
     = Hands-on instruction/review/practice -- skills needed for next Monthly Outing
     = Hands-on instruction/review/practice -- skills needed for other upcoming activities
     = Hands-on instruction/review/practice -- skills needed for members’ Scout to First Class rank advancement, and/or merit badge work
- GAME
     = Practice for next Inter-patrol competition
     = Other team-building fun
- CLOSING (assigned to a patrol member)

Week 2
- OPENING (assigned to a patrol member)
- BUSINESS MEETING
     = Announcements
     = Status of preparations for next Monthly Outing
     = Approve menu for next Monthly Outing
     = Status of preparations for next Inter-patrol competitions
     = Status of preparations for other upcoming events/activities
     = Review of patrol member advancement status and needs
     = Assignments for next Patrol gathering
     = Matters for Patrol Leader to take to PLC
- FIELD TRIP OR SKILLS PRACTICE
     = Field trip usually related to an upcoming troop outing/event or advancement requirements.  Examples:  visit a bike shop to learn about bicycle maintenance; a local park or someone’s back yard for firebuilding practice; a skills session taught by a local outdoor store; a climbing gym; visit a local woodcarving hobbyist; a local park to talk to a Ranger about stream pollution.
     = Hands-on instruction/review/practice -- skills needed for next Monthly Outing
     = Hands-on instruction/review/practice -- skills needed for other upcoming activities
     = Hands-on instruction/review/practice -- skills needed for members’ Scout to First Class rank advancement, and/or merit badge work
- GAME (skip if on field trip)
     = Practice for next Inter-patrol competition
     = Other team-building fun
- CLOSING (assigned to a patrol member)

Week 3
- OPENING (assigned to a patrol member)
- BUSINESS MEETING
     = Announcements 
     = Status of preparations for next Monthly Outing
     = Status of preparations for next Inter-patrol competitions
     = Status of preparations for other upcoming events/activities
     = Review of patrol member advancement status and needs
     = Assignments for next Patrol gathering
     = Matters for Patrol Leader to take to PLC
- SKILLS PRACTICE
     = Hands-on instruction/review/practice -- skills needed for next Monthly Outing
     = Hands-on instruction/review/practice -- skills needed for other upcoming activities
     = Hands-on instruction/review/practice -- skills needed for members’ Scout to First Class rank advancement, and/or merit badge work
- GAME
     = Practice for next Inter-patrol competition
     = Other team-building fun
- CLOSING (assigned to a patrol member)
 

10 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I actually think that is a real suggestion.  It mimics Cub Scouts, but if you minimize adults and the patrols keep meeting, then I could see it working and working well.  

I really think patrols are subverted by troop structures and habits.   

In implementing this suggestion, it would be important that the adults who will be present at patrol gatherings (per current YPT/adult supervision rules) will enable a youth-run patrol.

It is interesting that Cub Scout dens and packs are well-structured for supporting the Patrol Method but don't use it (until maybe Webelos/Arrow of Light), while troop structures and habits, as @fred8033 mentions, are not well-suited for supporting the Patrol Method.  BSA's Troop Meeting Agenda webpages (https://troopleader.scouting.org/troop-meetings/ and linked pages) illustrate "Troop Method":  Skill instruction is generally broken down by proficiency level, not by patrol.  Games can be competitions between patrols, but could also be between teams chosen from the entire troop, or individual games, or games for the entire troop.  And patrol meetings are referred to as "Breakout Groups." ("Mom!  Check out my cool Breakout Group patch!")

2 hours ago, Kudu said:

The purpose of my post was to show how actual gung-ho outdoor kids in a BSA Troop can experience (if only for one weekend in their entire lives) a Free Range Patrol System as it was known to Baden-Powell and William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt. 

B-P and Hillcourt understood that turning a collection of youth into a working patrol required the members to spend time working, playing, and living with their fellow patrol members -- with minimal distractions, support, or interference from outside their budding team.  It's hard for a patrol to develop teamwork when the members are continually mingling with members of other patrols and adults are standing over their shoulders telling them what to do.  Physical distance from others, especially when engaged in challenging tasks, is a great way for patrol members to build reliance on each other.  The benefits of that physical separation can be supplemented and reinforced with patrol meetings at separate times and locations away from the troop meeting, and true interpatrol games (replacing physical distance with competition). 

A troop really interested in pursuing the Patrol Method could go to a schedule of one troop meeting each month that would include interpatrol competitions (not just troop-wide games or ad hoc teams); three weekly patrol gatherings/activities/skill training sessions (Scout practice) each month at times and locations convenient to the patrol members (with, of course, the required two-adult presence); and the monthly troop outing, but at a location where the patrols would be spread out.  Because each patrol would have flexibility in setting weekly patrol gathering/activity times and locations, it could help reduce members' scheduling conflicts.  And each patrol would have more time to work together on the specific advancement requirements (or even merit badges) its members need; the particular skill activities its members are interested in (even taking field trips); skills for the monthly interpatrol competition; and preparations for the monthly outing, such as checking gear and taste-testing menus.

18 hours ago, MattR said:

I think there's another piece to this puzzle that might help and I saw it in spades at my last high adventure trip. We were on a challenging backpacking trip . . . 

Anyway, maybe the question isn't how to develop patrols so much as it's about dealing with a lack of teamwork. 

I think @MattR has summarized the issue nicely in a clear, real-world way.  The Patrol Method in the classic sense is team-building and team performance. So if you don't have Patrol Method in your troop, the troop is missing out on the Method of Scouting designed to develop Scouts into good team players - an important life skill. Critical elements in team-building and team performance are a common goal, shared effort to accomplish that goal, and working together to overcome challenges and obstacles -- all of which generally require the participation of all of the team/patrol members.  A backpacking crew on a trek is an ideal setting for team-building and team performance.

But what if you have one or more team/patrol members who aren't interested in having or working on a common goal, or who give up in the face of challenges, or simply are not physically present at various times that team/patrol development is supposed to be occurring?  What if team/patrol members can't rely on each other to contribute to team/patrol performance when needed?  If you can't drop or add team/patrol members, and you can't change the various limitations or circumstances that are burdening individual team/patrol members, what practical steps can you take to engage in team-building with that team/patrol?

@fred8033 is absolutely right:  Focus on giving your youth great experiences.  Most troops do better on some of the Eight Methods than on others, and there are a lot of troops where circumstances largely prevent the successful execution of one or more Methods. 

We haven't found what I think would be a good answer to the problem of variable attendance.  That's why I started this thread.  Some troops have tried to adapt by creating extra-large patrols so that there will be at least a few patrol members of each patrol at the activity.  Some troops find out who is planning to go on a campout and form ad hoc patrols for that activity (or just wait to see who shows up).  Some troops organize patrols of "regulars" who consistently attend, and patrols of frequent "no-shows."  Some troops just leave it to the Scouts who are going on the campout to figure out food and gear and tenting arrangements for themselves.  Some troops ignore any patrol organization and have a combination of Scouts in Positions of Responsibility and adult leaders and parents carry out the planning, preparation, and execution of activities for the whole troop.  Some troops don't have the problem because they have attendance and participation requirements for all youth members, like some sports teams do.

Until we find a good answer, work on the Methods within your troop's capabilities, be proud of your successes in those areas, and don't sweat what you can't control.

2 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I think the influence of the culture (pop culture) will push future objectives.

In one sense, I think we are already there, and have been there for a while, in the ScoutsBSA/former Boy Scouting program.  I think that the program has adapted to societal and cultural changes by promoting Leadership Development and Advancement -- both focused on individual achievement -- as the two key Methods of Scouting.  Indeed, Leadership Development has been promoted to be one of the Aims of Scouting, in addition to being a Method of Scouting.  See the Aims and Methods page of BSA's Troop Leader website, https://troopleader.scouting.org/scoutings-aims-and-methods/. 

There is also a link there to a page about the Patrol Method, which I think is actually pretty good.  The problem, as I see it, is that the explanation on that page, as well as the patrol organization discussion of the @Kudu page cited by @RememberSchiff (http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/system/3_patrol_organization.htm) is that they assume that all (or at least most) members of the patrol will not only be involved in the activity planning and preparation but will also be present at the activity.  As I have indicated, I think that is unrealistic.  Thus my original question:  How can we get around the problem of variable attendance and still have fully functioning Patrol Method patrols?

49 minutes ago, dkurtenbach said:

 

So, the secret to the Patrol Method is to stand back and let the magic happen?  Please, tell me more about how the magic unfolds to get to Patrol Method.  The first step, it sounds like, is to leave the youth "to their own devices" and they will form themselves into groups.  How long does it take to get to separate, identifiable groups this way?  I assume that this "natural inclination" somehow accommodates the shy kids, the loners, the new youth who don't know anyone else in the troop, and the unpopular kids.  Do these natural groups end up being pretty much the same size?  You don't have a couple of kids who just want to hang with each other and no one else?

After a separate group forms, what happens next in that group?  What is the next step toward Patrol Method?

My point is, the notion that functioning Scout patrols will form "naturally" is a myth.  It is certainly natural for people to work, play, and live in small groups -- that is the reason for organization into patrols.  But lots of those groups -- especially those with goals and responsibilities -- do not form naturally; they are assembled.  A Patrol Method patrol is a team of Scouts formed for the purpose of learning both skills and citizenship through the autonomous or semi-autonomous planning and execution of Scouting activities.  That can't be done consistently with patrols of "friends" of wildly varying sizes that  "naturally" keep shifting and "naturally" exclude some youth.  Natural clusters may be starting points for forming patrols, but someone (ideally, senior youth leadership in the troop, in consultation with the SM) has to tweak the organization in order to carry out the program.  As with any team, cooperation in a Scout patrol is absolutely necessary for success, but friendship is optional.  (That is the citizenship component of the Patrol Method.)  However, in most cases where the patrol is successful, shared effort and experiences will result in camaraderie, fellowship, and even friendship.

7 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

More often than not, Patrol method is failing because it is being impeded by adults. Left to their own devices youth will naturally gravitate towards what we call the Patrol method. 

. . . 

Guide, nudge and whisper when needed, but let the Scouts be Scouts and you will be 80+% of way to Patrol method. Teach them as needed and you will have a Unit with a healthy Patrol method.

5 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I hugely agree.  "Left to their own devices youth will naturally gravitate towards what we call the Patrol method."  Patrol method is a natural inclination of the scouts ... and people.  People tend to form groups that they associate in.  That's a patrol.   

I also agree that the best thing to promote the patrol method is to get out of the hair of the scouts.  Let scouts be scouts.  Teach and guide, but let them be them.  

So, the secret to the Patrol Method is to stand back and let the magic happen?  Please, tell me more about how the magic unfolds to get to Patrol Method.  The first step, it sounds like, is to leave the youth "to their own devices" and they will form themselves into groups.  How long does it take to get to separate, identifiable groups this way?  I assume that this "natural inclination" somehow accommodates the shy kids, the loners, the new youth who don't know anyone else in the troop, and the unpopular kids.  Do these natural groups end up being pretty much the same size?  You don't have a couple of kids who just want to hang with each other and no one else?

After a separate group forms, what happens next in that group?  What is the next step toward Patrol Method?

I've written the following or something similar a few times here:

• The Patrol Method is about teamwork and citizenship.  Teamwork in that all patrol members share responsibility and divide up tasks so that each member contributes.  Citizenship in that the patrol is a miniature community in which the members need to learn how work with each other peacefully and productively to carry out the patrol's shared goals and responsibilities.
• The Patrol Method and the notion of patrol spirit are largely extinct.  BSA is totally oriented to the troop as the basic operational unit of ScoutsBSA and Boy Scouting before that.  Patrols in ScoutsBSA are for administration (collecting and distributing information and resources) and a nod to tradition, but not for operations -- by which I mean planning, preparing for, and carrying out campouts, hikes, service projects, etc.  
• A big factor contributing to the near abandonment of the patrol as the basic operational unit in ScoutsBSA is modern society, in which families have a wide variety of youth activities to choose from and participate in, on top of family and school events.  This leads to schedule conflicts and widely variable attendance by patrol members at meetings, outings, and events.  The Patrol Method is based on shared responsibility, and patrol spirit is based on shared experiences.  They can only develop when most of the patrol members are in attendance at most activities.   

You may not agree with my premise, analysis, or conclusions; but I think it is fair to say, at least, that patrols today are not as functional and autonomous as Baden-Powell envisioned.  So my question is, in today's ScoutsBSA program, given Youth Protection and adult supervision rules and the Guide to Safe Scouting, and given that families are busy and youth have other interests and activities besides Scouting, and given modern technology, is it possible to revive a form of the Patrol Method that includes:

• A patrol in which the membership stays largely the same over a period of at least two years;
• Frequent interaction among all of the patrol members ;
• The patrol has substantive operational control of its activities, both for patrol-only activities and as part of larger troop activities;  and
• Most members of the patrol have an active role in planning, preparing, and/or carrying out most patrol activities.  

3 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Ironic since the neckerchief is the least worn part of the full uniform (Class A) by scouts in the U.S.  At least in our area.

Barry

Yep.  A result of turning the neckerchiefs into little hankies to decorate the uniform and then making them optional in troops.  But using them as Scouting identity items when not otherwise in uniform has some merit.  I am seeing more Scouters wearing neckerchiefs over the collar and tied at the ends with a friendship knot, in the fashion of many of our international Scouting cousins, often when not in the official uniform. 

43 minutes ago, DeaconLance said:

Patrol method is objective #9 on JTE.

Interestingly, Troop JTE Objective #9 reads:  "Patrol method: Use the patrol method to develop youth leaders."  The various levels are likewise phrased in a way that paints the Patrol Method as a method of leadership development.  This shows how far astray BSA has really gone in diminishing and muddling up the Patrol Method into something unrecognizable.  The real, classic Patrol Method is about teamwork and citizenship.  Teamwork in that all patrol members share responsibility and are involved in decisions.  Citizenship in that the patrol is a miniature community - a gang - in which the members need to learn how work with each other peacefully and productively to carry out the patrol's shared goals and responsibilities.  Leadership development is a separate, and different Method of Scouting.

27 minutes ago, RichardB said:

So what is it called to just wear the neckerchief? 

"Class N."  BSA finally came around to the idea of allowing neckerchief wear with activity uniforms and non-uniform clothing.  The purpose is to make it possible to identify youth and youth groups as Scouts when they are out being active -- camping, hiking, working on service projects.  That is, to raise the visibility of Scouting in the community even when youth aren't in recognizable uniforms.  And as RichardB notes, it is a widespread practice around the world.  If we want to promote the practice of wearing neckerchiefs when we're otherwise not in BSA uniform, giving that practice an unofficial but easily understood name raises the status of wearing the neckerchief by itself:  "Class N" makes it sound like "neckerchief only" is actually a recognized uniform category along with "Class A" and "Class B."  

14 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Activity uniform description is here https://scoutingmagazine.org/2018/08/clearing-up-common-questions-about-what-we-wear/

What’s the activity uniform?

It’s appropriate for informal occasions. It’s the same as the field uniform, with a Scouting T-shirt or polo shirt replacing the uniform shirt and neckerchief. (Sometimes you’ll hear this unofficially called “Class B” and the field uniform called “Class A.”)

The Boy Scout Handbook -- the 2016 pre-girl printing  -- page 21, says:

      The official Boy Scout uniform (sometimes called the "field uniform") includes a Scout shirt, Scout pants or Scout shorts, Scout belt, Scout socks, and shoes or hiking boots. ... Proudly wear your uniform to troop meetings, special ceremonies, and other troop functions where dressing up is appropriate.  When you're headed outdoors to do something active, you can pull on a T-shirt with Scout pants or shorts, or wear other clothing that is appropriate for the events of the day.  This is sometimes called an "activity uniform."

Between the Handbook statement and the Scouting magazine article, the most important point doesn't have anything to do with terminology.  Rather, it is that the "official" or "field" uniform is for "dressing up," not for use in the field.  That is, the official Scout uniform is only intended to be worn for approximately 20% of the hours that a troop will spend on Scouting activities. 

21 minutes ago, SubSM said:

That is what we have to do on most campouts, due to the lack of scouts. I am trying to figure out how to build patrol spirit when every campout is another ad-hoc patrol here and there.

Sadly, the Patrol Method and the notion of patrol spirit are largely extinct.  BSA is totally oriented to the troop as the basic operational unit of ScoutsBSA, and has been for decades.  Patrols in ScoutsBSA are for administration (collecting and distributing information and resources) and a nod to tradition, but not for operations -- by which I mean planning, preparing for, and carrying out campouts, hikes, service projects, etc.  A big factor contributing to the near abandonment of the patrol as the basic operational unit in ScoutsBSA is modern society, in which families have a wide variety of youth activities to choose from and participate in, on top of family and school events.  This leads to schedule conflicts and widely variable attendance by patrol members at meetings, outings, and events.  The Patrol Method is based on shared responsibility, and patrol spirit is based on shared experiences.  They can only develop when most of the patrol members are in attendance at most activities.   

All of which is to say:  Under today's Troop Method, in which patrols have diminished significance, it is perfectly acceptable to adapt to circumstances, bypass patrol membership obstacles, and do what is best for the Scouts on the campout, within the rules.

On 6/5/2019 at 5:02 PM, FireStone said:

Browsing the latest batches of photos, I'm finding a very noticeable lack of uniform present. Under the "camping" image category for Scouts BSA, there are 52 photos, not one of them showing a Scout in uniform in the field. In fact, as best I can tell, in the entire Scouts BSA photo collection there are only 5 photos that show Scouts in uniform, and they are older images, likely to be phased out some time soon (as it seems to happen with the Brand Center, new images in, old stuff out).

. . . 

If I were to judge the aspirations of the BSA based on what they are putting out in their marketing resources, the photos they create and distribute, my conclusion would be that the scout uniform has been killed off. If these photos are any indication of what the BSA hopes we'll look like in the near future, it's a future without uniforms.

The photos you are seeing in the "camping" category are right in line with guidance from the Handbook (or at least, the 2016 pre-girl printing of the Boy Scout Handbook, page 21):

      The official Boy Scout uniform (sometimes called the "field uniform") includes a Scout shirt, Scout pants or Scout shorts, Scout belt, Scout socks, and shoes or hiking boots. ... Proudly wear your uniform to troop meetings, special ceremonies, and other troop functions where dressing up is appropriate.  When you're headed outdoors to do something active, you can pull on a T-shirt with Scout pants or shorts, or wear other clothing that is appropriate for the events of the day.  This is sometimes called an "activity uniform."

The handbook of my day (late 1960s, Seventh Edition) was full of drawings of Scouts in full uniform hiking, camping, cooking, rendering first aid, and even rowing and canoeing in full uniform with neckerchief and garrison cap.  But that was then.  What we have today is:  The "field" uniform is for dressing up, not for use in the field.  For outdoor activities, wear whatever is appropriate for the activity.  Quite sensible, given that BSA's "field" uniform is not well-suited for camping, hiking, and other activities, but is well-suited for many large, gaudy patches, pins, cords, tabs, dangly things, neckerchiefs, neckerchief slides, sashes, and belts with lots of metal belt loop awards.

As Fred8033 noted, "BSA blew it by not having their own 'reasonably' priced class-b program."  Doing so seems like it would be obvious.  They could have said, "When you're headed outdoors to do something active, you can pull on an official BSA T-shirt, swim trunks, polo shirt, sweatshirt, rugby shirt, fleece pullover, puffy vest, rain shell, jac-shirt, barn jacket, snow pants, parka, or other official BSA clothing that is appropriate for the events of the day, along with your neckerchief (worn loosely, with a friendship knot)."  Seriously, we should have official uniforms for all occasions and activity types.   

Don't judge the troop leaders harshly; they were probably never trained in what the Patrol Method actually is and how it works.  That is perfectly understandable, because BSA is totally oriented to the troop as the basic operational unit of ScoutsBSA, and has been for decades.  Patrols in ScoutsBSA are for administration (collecting and distributing information and resources) and a nod to tradition, but not for operations -- by which I mean planning, preparing for, and carrying out campouts, hikes, service projects, etc.  In particular, the smaller the troop, the less need to subdivide the troop for administrative purposes. 

A big factor contributing to the near abandonment of the patrol as the basic operational unit in ScoutsBSA is the widely variable attendance by patrol members at meetings, outings, and events, as in SSScout's example.  When I was growing up in a small town in the 60s and 70s, the only organized youth activities besides school were baseball in the summer and Boy Scouts.  Electronic entertainment was radio and three channels on television.  Things are very different these days.  The Patrol Method is based on shared responsibility.  It only really works when most of the patrol members are in attendance at most activities.  It just doesn't make sense for five Scouts in a patrol to plan and prepare for an activity when only two members of the patrol will be attending.  It is much more practical to plan and prepare at the troop level, where there will be a higher degree of attendance predictability based on historical data.  Many troops that are trying to use the Patrol Method try to adapt to this problem by having artificially large patrols (10 to 15 youth), so that they are likely to have a minimum number of patrol members in attendance at any particular troop activity.  But that's not really the Patrol Method either, because the responsibility for execution isn't distributed among all of the patrol members.   

The fact is that BSA has replaced true Patrols -- intended to teach teamwork and citizenship (living together peacefully and productively in a defined community) -- with Positions of Responsibility -- intended to teach leadership.  As a practical matter, that is more in tune with what parents and Scouts want these days anyway.  The modern Scout troop (including its token administrative patrol structure) offers many Positions of Responsibility and thus many leadership positions with opportunities for progressively greater responsibilities.  And for many, many troops that works great. 

Whether you are talking about a troop that emphasizes patrol organization or a troop that pays lip service to patrols but emphasizes Scouts holding leadership positions, the real concern is whether the troop is actually adult-run rather than youth-run.  Both the Patrol Method and the Leadership Method are based on youth exercising responsibility, which is hard to do when the adults keep a tight grip on what the troop does and when and how they do it.

1 hour ago, TAHAWK said:

While almost all the current  language - the 2019 language - the website language about the Patrol Method - sorry "the patrol method"  - is gone, this is still here : 

"Most patrol activities takes place in the context of troop activities, but that doesn’t mean that every patrol has to do the same things on every outing."  This  contradicts not only what Bill said about the primacy of the patrol, it also contradicts what BSA said as recently as 2018: "In Scouting, a troop is composed of several patrols. Boy Scouting happens in the  context of a patrol. The patrol, a small team of eight or so Scouts, is more than an organizational convenience or a Boy Scout version of the Cub Scout den. It is the place where boys learn skills, take on leadership responsibilities, and develop friendships that will often last throughout their lifetimes. [emphasis added].

A lot of the language may look the same as that of decades ago, and BSA may honestly intend that the real learning and leading should begin in patrols.  The big difference is in what is not said:  In the old days, patrols decided for themselves what they were going to do for themselves, and coordinated with other patrols for troop-wide meetings and activities.  Now, decisions are made at the troop level, and patrols are assigned roles and tasks to carry out those decisions.  The patrol is still an organizational necessity, but in an entirely different way than in the old days.

Far too often these days, I see troops and adult leaders who are really only conscious of one method:  Advancement.  Advancement as one of the eight Methods is the concept of youth gaining skill and confidence by overcoming progressively more difficult challenges.  But for many, understanding the theoretical underpinnings for the Scouting program set out in the eight Methods is largely unnecessary because all the Methods are represented in specific rank and merit badge requirements and advancement procedures.  Advancement is now understood by many to be a single complete, practical checklist for achieving the Scouting outcomes of citizenship, character, and fitness.  

The problem is that the specific rank requirements, many of which are "one and done," merely offer examples of what the eight Methods seek to teach.  Advancement requirements do not provide the complete Scouting education, which only comes through the conscious week-by-week application of those Methods by leaders who understand the big picture.

9 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Speaking of protecting brand identity, I wonder if a Girl Scout or the GSUSA obtained permission to rebrand Somoas to Momoas from Jason Momoa,  Aquaman,  DC, Warner Brothers, ...

https://www.today.com/food/girl-scout-creates-jason-momoa-themed-samoa-cookies-t149052

Yeah, GSUSA HQ probably had a conniption.  These local Girl Scout folks were doing to Mr. Momoa's intellectual property (as well as that of DC Comics and the movie studio) what the Girl Scouts accuse local Boy Scout folks of doing to Girl Scout intellectual property.  And in this case, there was no question that their ploy was successful and the Girl Scouts profited directly from Mr. Momoa's name and image (in his Aquaman role).  

Check out the discussion on the Facebook page of the Girl Scouts of Colorado.  The Council's comment included the following:  "This all started as an inside joke with her friends and family.  She has sold her supply of 35 boxes or so, and is no longer using the image to sell cookies - though her cookie season is ongoing."  Other comments delve into the intellectual property issue, as well as the appropriateness of using an image of a shirtless, well-muscled man to sell Girl Scout cookies.