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David CO

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Everything posted by David CO

  1. David CO

    Update On Adult Leadership Standards

    Initially, this decision will polarize Scouting into regular units, which follow BSA guidelines, and church-owned units, which are exempted from the guidelines. Those who are caught in the middle might not, contrary to what some have claimed, be able to join and fully participate in a church-owned unit. Recent court cases make it pretty clear that when church organizations open their doors to accommodate non-members, they put the ability to exercise their own religious freedoms at risk. Down the road, this will prove to be an untenable, no-win situation. Church-owned units will either have to entrench, which defeats both the purpose and spirit of Scouting, or disband their units. Packsaddle and NJ are 100% wrong. This will not add to our choices and freedoms. It is not a good thing.
  2. David CO

    Update On Adult Leadership Standards

    Our policy regarding restrooms and showers at our church/school is that you use the correct sex-segregated facility that corresponds to your anatomy. Even though we are very conservative, we don't completely ban gay people from our buildings. What restrooms and shower facilities ought they to use other than the ones we direct them to? Scouter99 says that gay youth and adults have no business using our restrooms and showers. The only way to do that would be a total ban from our church, and that is not going to happen.
  3. David CO

    Update On Adult Leadership Standards

    Scouter99, it may surprise you that at in my conservative, traditional, church and school, we occasionally have co-ed sleepovers. We don't feel that is immodest for kids to see each other in their pajamas. We also don't feel that the kids are in any danger of loosing either their self-control or moral compasses. To the best of my knowledge, no serious incidents have occurred at any of our sleepovers. The kids enjoy the sleepovers, and I intend to continue to authorize them. Yes, you are correct when you point out that BSA's youth protection policy is based on an entirely different assumption. We could not allow events similar to our sleepovers to take place under the umbrella of our Scouting program. Unlike BSA, we do not think it is always inappropriate for people of the opposite sex to share sleeping facilities.
  4. David CO

    Update On Adult Leadership Standards

    Miami Chief is partially right. We do not separate our kids from every person who might find them attractive. We don't do so at church. We don't do so at school. We don't do so at Scouting. Why would we? We also don't separate our Scouts from every person they might find attractive. Our kids want to be attractive. They like it. They like the feelings of being attractive and having attraction to other people. Attraction is a God-given normal part of life. It is a good thing. It can be a blessed thing. Attraction also has a dark side. It can be disordered. My religion teaches me that homosexuality is intrinsically disordered, so I have to differ with Miami Chief when he tries to equate normal attraction with disordered attraction. I can agree, as I often have, that gay youths and adults are able to exercise the same amount of self control over their attractions as are the rest of us. I have no hesitancy in agreeing to that. I will never agree that gay youths and adults are not seriously and intrinsically disordered. I will never consider their attractions to be morally equivalent to the attractions that I, and most people, feel.
  5. David CO

    Update On Adult Leadership Standards

    My Scouts are not so isolated that they unaware of what takes place at gay pride parades, raunchy rock concerts, and the like. For Pete's sake, the pride parade goes right through the middle of town and right past our church/school. It is on the news. We've all seen it. I'm not happy about it. I don't condone it. But let's face it people, our Scouts already know about it. Good or bad, this is the world they live in. Yes, we do not discuss sexual issues at Scouting activities. Scouting is the wrong time and the wrong place for discussions about sex. But don't let this confuse you into thinking that we, as conservatives and believers in traditional religious based morals, never talk to our kids about sex. We talk at home. We talk in Religion class. We talk in Health class. We talk. Listening to the kids, I get the impression that they are not nearly as shocked and traumatized by the popular culture as we might think, or want them to be. They mostly take it in stride. This sometimes worries me. It worries me that the kids will become so conditioned to what they see and hear in the popular culture that they will come to view such things as normal, or even worse, morally acceptable. This is certainly what the organizers of gay pride parades have in mind. My kids assure me that this is not the case. They know the difference between right and wrong. And though they may be somewhat amused by the bizarre antics and spectacles they see, their values and morals are not changed by them. Thank God.
  6. David CO

    Update On Adult Leadership Standards

    The First Amendment right to freedom of assembly pretty much covers it. You can assemble with whomever you please with or without any formal organization. Since freedom of assembly is an enumerated right, no judicial activism is necessary.
  7. David CO

    Update On Adult Leadership Standards

    Hmm. Maybe your right.
  8. David CO

    Update On Adult Leadership Standards

    Stosh, I don't think religious CO's are being even the slightest bit hypocritical. It is not so much a matter of freedom of association as it is a question of ownership. Freedom of association doesn't give individuals the right to pick and choose the membership of units they do not own.
  9. David CO

    Update On Adult Leadership Standards

    No, Rick, I think Scouter99's main point was that homosexuality itself is evil.
  10. David CO

    Update On Adult Leadership Standards

    I would not personally recommend to a non-religious CO that they sidestep the rules on membership. Of course it can be done, but it doesn't feel to me like the Scouting way of doing things. A neighboring Troop created a new name, avoid-a-sphere, to sidestep a ban on dodge ball. Sure, the ban on dodge ball, like the bans on water guns and water balloons, is silly. But what kind of example are we setting for the kids if we sidestep the rules we disagree with, especially if we make a joke of it. A couple of years ago, on this forum, we had a lengthy discussion about ethics which raised the question of when it is ethical to break the rules. While we don't need to repeat that thread, I do find it interesting that it keeps reappearing on other topics.
  11. David CO

    Update On Adult Leadership Standards

    There are indeed two different sets of rules. Both the Supreme Court decision and the recent BSA policy changes will draw distinctions between religious and secular, churches and businesses. For some of us, it is very difficult to distinguish a church from its ministries, even if those ministries can be similar to existing businesses. Is a church owned school, hospital, or nursing home not a ministry just because other people operate similar institutions as a business? Does the existence of commercial wedding halls in a community mean that a church's sacramental wedding ceremony should be seen as a competing business activity, and regulated as such? Some CO's are churches, some CO's are ministries of churches, and some CO's are made up of church going people. Which of these three groups are entitled to exercise their freedom of religion? We live in an increasingly polarized society. These decisions only act to further polarize us. I suspect that this will be true in Scouting as well. We may well be seeing the start of a future in which there will be two groups of Scouting, religious Scouting and secular Scouting.
  12. David CO

    Update On Adult Leadership Standards

    Evil and predatory are two different things. One can believe that an activity is immoral, sinful, or evil without it being predatory. Evil can be consensual.
  13. David CO

    Update On Adult Leadership Standards

    To answer Eagle 77, yes, a good Scoutmaster of a church owned unit does pass on his prejudice and bigotry, only we like to call it faith and morals.
  14. David CO

    Update On Adult Leadership Standards

    It seems that both sides like to use safety concerns to bolster their arguments. Pro-gay advocates often claim that traditional religions incite violent assaults and teen suicides. Anti-gay detractors often portray homosexuals as likely pedophiles. I think neither argument is true.
  15. David CO

    Update On Adult Leadership Standards

    At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I will once again say that it is the Chartered Organization who owns the unit. It is their unit, lock, stock, and barrel. It is understandable that some may come to feel a sense of "ownership" in their unit. They are entitled to their feelings, but they are not entitled to any real ownership in the unit. The unit still belongs to the CO. Registering and participating in a Scout unit does not give you any ownership in the unit. Nor does it give you the right to have your religion, values, or morals represented in the unit, if they conflict with those of the CO. BSA has not given individuals a blessing to install their values into units they do not own. Nor is it right for people to describe a unit as "our youth program" to disguise the clear fact that they have no ownership in the unit. It is very generous of CO's to allow nonmembers to register and participate in their units. One should not reward such generosity by claiming ownership in the unit or by undermining its values and goals.
  16. David CO

    Update On Adult Leadership Standards

    In light of this decision, I think BSA should now allow all Scouts to choose Lone Scouting.
  17. Two people, the head of a Chartered Organization and the COR, are allowed to register in one additional adult leadership position in a Troop. Several people very politely advised me not do it. Having the IH or COR in another position really throws off the dynamics of the Troop leadership. I didn't listen. They were right. Live and learn.
  18. David CO

    Modern scouting a For-profit business

    I would disagree with those who say that BSA sells a program to the public, and should therefore follow the practices of business who actually do sell to the public. I would maintain that if BSA sells a program to anyone, it is to Chartered Organizations, not to the public. I would also point out that CO's are not supposed to be merely customers of BSA, they are voting members. Since BSA is comprised largely of altruistically minded CO's, it should follow their example and reflect their practices. BSA should not act as though it were a business.
  19. David CO

    Should we force Scouts to listen to Old Goat music ?

    It is not polite to stand up and walk out during a live performance until there is a break. It disrupts the performance for both the performers and those guests who are enjoying the event. It's fine to leave between acts in a play, sets in a concert, or any other sort of pause or intermission intended for that purpose. Anytime we make plans to entertain teenagers, the need for pauses and intermissions should be anticipated.
  20. David CO

    Modern scouting a For-profit business

    Poor examples. Every time scout exec salaries are discussed, somebody starts making comparisons with compensation packages offered in other private sector businesses and argues that BSA needs to be financially competitive in order to recruit and retain good people. But why only compare BSA salaries with other business models? Why not also compare them with our military and clergy? High ranking military officers and religious leaders are often highly educated, skilled, and experienced people who work for far less than our top scout execs. Yet these dedicated people don't seem to be leaving in droves for better paying jobs. It is clear that most of our military and clergy are motivated by higher ideals than personal gain and self-promotion. Why can't BSA be expected to do the same? .
  21. David CO

    Community Service or quid pro quo?

    Service clubs are experiencing a startling decline in membership. Todays young parents aren't joining, and their children aren't witnessing the example of selfless acts of community service that SSScout recounts.
  22. David CO

    Community Service or quid pro quo?

    Children learn what we teach. Most "charitable" fundraisers nowadays, at church, school, sports, and scouts, have some sort of personal payoff for the kids. Service hours are not just for advancement, anymore. We also have them for Confirmation and graduation requirements. Everybody is getting in on the act. What used to be cheerfully and anonymously dropped into a collection basket is now in a computer coded envelope, recorded and reviewed annually. Quid pro quo religion. This is the world we have created and live in. I can't blame the kids one bit for learning what we have taught them.
  23. There is an interesting discussion taking place on another forum about the advancement consequences of a Scout's recreational drug use at camp. I'm curious. If the Scout were a member of OA, would OA impose any consequences, or would it be left to the unit leadership?
  24. David CO

    OA and recreational drug use

    On whether or not OA would treat tobacco use differently from recreational drug use, I don't know. I suppose some aspects of the infractions are the same, but others are not. Both should be reported and dealt with, but not necessarily at the same level, and not with the same severity. I do know that a school would treat it differently. Tobacco use would be dealt with by the principal or dean of students. Recreational drug use is an expulsion level offense requiring school board notification and action.
  25. David CO

    Eagle and weed

    While the conduct of the SM and CC certainly do reflect on the Chartered Organization, it is the IH and COR who actually represent the CO. I would not feel that the CO was correctly notified unless the IH and COR were fully informed of the situation.
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