concscouter

Personally, I like it. Our committee took one look at it and said 'why wait', we aren't making it a requirement ahead of time but we decided to go ahead and start teaching it now (in cubs).

I love a happy ending... I have posted on and off about some problems I had with a couple of units. I got some good advise, and I got questioned and was doubting what I was doing too, because really, 2 chartered orgs? Yeah, it was a little nuts... well, I said if it happened again I was done, it was me and my wife and our leaders/parents at the root and something was wrong with us. One person said something along the lines of 'maybe you should take a break, do you really think it isn't you?'... yeah, I wasn't sure...

Recap - Son was ready to quit, I started a new troop with some boys but was still cubmaster, chartered org #1 asked my wife and I to quit. Moved to new place, new chartered org that didn't have a troop (closed one down to pack/troop getting along problems three years ago) they had issues, we tried to help them fix it, troop got folded because of a youth protection issue in the pack that one of the troop leaders said something about to the head of charter org president #2.

It didn't happen again.

We rechartered as a friends of. We were asked by parents in chartered org #2 to start a pack too, we did that as well. So, we have two units now. It has been drama free. It's amazing how it has worked out. Its been a year, and we just rechartered.

But, there was some doubt, even I had doubts looking at everything and going 'what the .... ?!?!?'....

Chartered org #1( 1 pack, 1 troop) is about to fold the pack they threw us out of for forming a new troop. They are down to 4 boys, refuse to recruit and have not been holding meetings since last year. I hate to see it happen, but the other unit in the school has picked up the slack and is now over a hundred cubs. It appears that nobody really wanted us to go, except the scoutmaster in the troop we were feeding because I questioned him. Oh, he is gone too, left 4 months after doing all the damage he could. The troop is under new leadership and is doing things the right way now, but has no pack feeding them, nor are they actively recruiting, don't know what will become of them yet. Everyone that stood against us is now out of scouting, except one. I hope they can get it back together. But after two years, guess what? It's still my fault... that one person that stood against me at first is claiming its my fault they are about to go under (mind you, they didn't recruit at school night to join scouting or anything else either). Yeah, okay, I don't think so, I am not taking the blame for this one.

Chartered org #2 (1 pack, folded a troop) , well... the head of the chartered org was filled by a new person... and the first thing was the new president did was an audit to figure out where all the money went. Turns out the IH was hosting private luncheons for the CO once a month and footing the entire bill back to the CO. The old head of the chartering org was pretty much tossed out of scouts by the leadership in the pack. It got pretty bad at one point as that person continued to harrass us for about 3 months after they folded the troop... but eventually even the district got fed up and told her to go away.

In the end, it wasn't really two chartered orgs I had problems with, it was 2 people who happened to be in a position that they never should have been in, and have since been removed. One of those units survived (#2 pack) the other one has pretty much imploded (#1 pack)...

Recruiting has been a pain, this year numbers are down everywhere in our council and we don't recruit from a school. Hopefully, after the first unit can't recharter we'll get back in the school... Hopefully. But, we are getting boys word of mouth here and there. We are at about 90% retention too.

Overall though, the boys won in the end. They have a troop that THEY run (I sit in the back with the parents and the most I ever say to the anyone is 'let the SPL handle it' or 'go ask the SPL' all of my conversations are before or after the meetings). Well, I do a scoutmasters minute of course, but I even pass the announcements off to the boys. It has been an amazing two years, watching them go from constantly needing help, to doing it on their own. The pack we started was just extra, somehow we got convinced to do that, but I am now out of that, since I have been able to hand over the reigns and just work on the troop stuff.

Yeah, 1 year, no drama. Boys are doing great. Hindsight is 20/20 and I would have done a lot of things differently, but even if I had I see all the paths leading back to here anyway. The only thing I would have done completely different is that I never would have chartered the troop under the second CO, I would have done a 'friends of' right then instead. I still would have gotten canned from the 1st pack, but hey, then I just would have chartered a pack as well at that point, and I would have saved myself and my leaders a LOT of headache.

Thanks for all the advise. Even those that said 'are you sure it's not you?'. Because I wasn't sure at one point... who runs into that twice!?! And as a final note, we are on good terms with the new leaders in both the of the old units, and are recruiting from the second pack for our troop... that says something too.

BTW, that was a sincere thank you to everybody.

And yeah, if anything else happens I will definately be walking away. But with what is coming next, I doubt that will happen. I think with everything it will be able to be worked out. At least I hope so, I've dealt with enough.

I never mentioned this was a troubled unit to start with... hopefully now they are getting the help they need to deliver the program.

Okay. 1 pack for starting a new troop, 1 pack for making the phonecall about a boy being dehydrated and needing to go home.

No troops

chartered org in second unit is part of the pack (like dual roles in the top 5 positions) 3 leaders removed in the past 4 months by them.(This message has been edited by concscouter)

It's been a long time since I posted. We started the new troop, and noticed some 'quirkiness' with our new chartered org.

It went downhill from there. Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire.

I tried to hold things together... but I was playing by a different set of rules... see... I don't lie to make myself look good and others look bed. Others, even in scouts, don't have that issue.

What I completely don't understand is the power trip some people get in being the top dog in the volunteer side of the organization.

Since we came over they have now fired 3 leaders, in the last 4 months, one of those leaders being myself, and 2 other transfer leaders.

Why? Well... that is the part we can't get an honest answer on. Then they lied to the parents, multiple times. The reasons vary, but none of them are founded on anything other than they don't like us (leaders that came over with more experience) because they are intimidated by us.

Why? I don't know, that part I can't figure out.

But, your post have shown me it isn't worth figuring out, just letting them be, and if they bother me, moving away.

The good news... we don't have these kinds of problems with the troop.

The bad news... its the chartered org that has the presence in the pack and that is doing this.

But.. I just read thru a lot of post, and there is one thing I would like to say.

THANK YOU

I see that it isn't worth the time to argue with the knotheads, if they decide to fire me and mine from the scout positions we will just move the troop, or the boys. they have managed to ruin my boys webelos year by firing his den leader (told to shut up about youth protection or get out), who he really liked.

Again, thank you... I see what I have to do. they will burn out, and fade, and if they leave me alone, we will be just fine in the troop. just to add, at first I thought it was me, then with the last leader they were pretty much fired by email. that's when we had proof. of course, it doesn't mean anything anyway, except that we know it wasn't us now. That is a nice thing to know.

It is so true, scouts would be a lot more fun without the parents.

(This message has been edited by concscouter)

hmm... my post died...

Anyway... we have engaged the new scouts and told them the program is theirs, we have explained the proper roles of the adults, as a guide, not a leader, the boys are responsible for their program, and our job is to make sure they don't fail and flail, but learning from mistakes is perfectly okay (within the realms of reason and safety of course). The boys have made decisions like neckerchiefs so far, and the SPL has started to design the program, he wants two months of cooking followed by a month of first aid to start with (I joking said, are you sure you don't want to cover burns and food poisining first). We are definately keeping the boys in the patrol method, and keeping the leaders out. One of the bylaws is that there will be only one scoutmaster and then one ASM per patrol (with one backup ASM), but committee members may be assigned to specific boys in leadership roles to assist them in learning their job this year, until the boys can start passing that knowledge down themselves. the troop we came from had at I think had 20 ASMs and 15 boys... and 3 committee members... something out of whack there.

The boys are also taking part in writing the troop bylaws, how often elections are held, what are the requirements for position, a lot of the little details that are normally decided for them, and I think they are feeling a real sense of ownership of this troop, since it is their troop, not just a troop they joined that was already there and running.

We (the boys) are planning hikes already, and I have asked the SPL to make some of the shorter hikes available to the webelos in our feeder pack to get them engaged in the troop.

Part of the reason that the SPL wants to do the cooking classes is because I have also asked (at the request of the cubmaster) that the troop take the pack on a family campout in May, and that the boys would be running the campout for the younger boys. The boys have been, and I mean literally 'you mean WE get to take the pack out camping?' absolutely. This group of boys was responsible last campout for doing all the cooking for the entire pack and did an excellent job, so they are more than willing to bite off more. Of course, I will be asking the new webelos and bears to assist the some of the boys, but under the boys direction (but adult supervision).

Amazingly enough we are picking up a troop that folded two years ago, we have full equipment for about 30 boys, plus we have funding already as well. Looks like the derby track will be a joint pack and troop fundraiser, so the boys will be able to earn money for summer camp as well.

Overall, I think we are off to an excellent start.

The only thing was that they boys wanted not only a patrol flag, but they wanted a troop flag. For their troop flag they chose a phoenix, as a phoenix is reborn from its ashes. Even 10-11 year old boys are more perceptive than parents think, they saw this coming before the leaders did I guess.

@eagle92 - you got it right on the money. It doesn't serve the entire district, just half of it.

Wow, not only did I contact district, but so did several other units. For one day, the entire district turned upside down. I am on good terms with the old CO, and several other issues are being looked into. I don't know what is going to happen to the old pack, but I think we left them with just a few boys (I can't help it if the boys follow me). But, this all stems from the troop being mad that I might take all the boys, and their spitefulness (you hit it right on eagle92) and instead, they managed to destroy the pack that feeds them. Really smart, but here is the most important thing to me...

Not my problem anymore. I can't fix everything, but I can make sure that in the new unit I just formed, I give the best program I can to the boys. I can commit to helping the feeder pack and support them in what they need. I know that may sound mean, and selfish, and maybe not scoutlike, but if they continue down the path they are following they won't be around much longer, so they won't tarnish scouting anymore anyway. It will burn itself out and resolve itself.

thanks everybody for the kind words and support and reading my ramblings.

That's the plan!

This has been resolved, thank god. Why couldn't we do it? Because the first derby is a week from now, no time to order the parts.

No, that won't work... we run a bunch of derbies for other units, some numbering 80+ boys. But thank you...

If you read the rest of my post you'll the story, but the new pack leadership is leaving half the district high and dry. Is there anybody near STL that has a track with timer that can be loaned to another for 3 months. Yeah, I know it sounds crazy, but I am serious. The first derby is friday. Please somebody, HELP!

Well, not a happy ending... they just kinda said they cannot commit to the 28 derbies we had setup for fundraising. They took the equipment sunday, and then let the other packs known last night... mind you, first derby is Friday.

OMG, this is insane. District is involved, chartering organization is involved. 1000+ cubscouts let down. I can't get a track till mid-feb. Anybody near STL that can loan me a track and timer for three months?

Wow, not really new to scouting but new here. I have asked a few opinions and really valued the advice that I have been given. I have been in scouting for 6 years now, and have seen some amazing stuff from the scouts, and some really insane stuff from the parents. We started in one pack, and ended up leaving that pack because it didn't work for my son. We moved to another and it fit us much better. But, when my son graduated to boy scouts out of cubbies, we ran into the problems of sexism and scouters that have been in the program for so long they have lost sight of the goals and methods and scouting and have started doing their own thing. Eventually, after a second set of standards and requirements were being used for 'the cubmasters son' my son decided that scouting was not for him. After a long discussion with him, we discovered it wasn't scouting, it was a lack of guidance from the adults and a lack of leadership from the boys. Dodgeball does not make a troop meeting. So, at the guidance of council, we formed a new troop. Well... the old school scouters didn't take too kindly to that and decided to do everything they could to get us removed from leadership. They did not succeed in the end. I was asked to come back as cubmaster, but I politely declined, citing that as long as the parents and leaders are involved who tried to fire us the first time are there, I couldn't lead that pack. So... we have landed with a new pack, our feeder pack for our troop. three fourths of the families have left with us, and all the leaders except the two that were involved and one who doesn't want to be involved (I don't blame her in any way). It is sad because it means the end of a functional unit, loss of some boys, and some friendships destroyed along the way. But, for the boys that remain, we will be able to deliver the program as intended, not what it has evolved to under the same leadership for 30 years which has lost the methods of scouting (uniforms is a method, right?). I am very trained, the only thing I have left to take being ropes course, teepee camping and woodbadge, which I intend to knock out in the next two years. This isn't the first time the old leaders have had issues, as a matter of fact, looking back at pack history, there are breaks 10 years ago and 5 years ago (we were never aware of that one). The troop is only composed of 25% of feeder pack boys, with most boys chosing to go somewhere else.

Anyway, I love that someone put this resource together, and now that I have a lot of time on my hands, I will be happy to throw in advice for any who may need it. I have a lot of experience in dealing with districts and councils, and intra-pack disputes (yeah, the area I am coming from had a LOT of drama, and as I have read thru the forums, I have discovered that the amount of drama these people have around them is probably 5 to 10 times that what you see in a normal unit). I am so glad to be drama free, like it had been up until my boy joined the boy scouts (left cubbies).

So, thank you all who have responded to my post before, I love that there are actually SCOUTS on this forum, giving their perspective as well and using the advice and tools here to solve their problems as well. It shows how strong the scouting program is that a young man will actually not back down and fight for what he thinks is right, and will share some of his more difficult experiences to help adults resolve theirs. I think this is a great thing someone has done, but I can see it only helps if we all chip in, and I will do my best (heehee) to try and pay forward the help and advice that was given to me here.

Well, follow up... all I can say is OMG! The CoR refused to return phonecalls. We started the new troop, the CoR got wind from the scoutmaster and went BALLISTIC. They waited for us to recharter the pack (needing me to charter as the trained cubmaster), then after that called me the day after Christmas and fired me. I sent a letter to all the parents... I was fired for a conflict of interest, my wife was fired for being married to me, and if she was a committee member even the committee couldn't say things (slander me) around her. My younger son should also find a new pack. They will take care of the other commitments we have going for us.

Well... we start getting calls from parents and leaders... parents explain that their son was NEVER going to troop 200 after what they had personally seen, it was just nice that I had made a new troop to continue on. They ask if they can join the pack we are taking our son to. I have found out since then the principle parties in this, and the scoutmaster was given a transcript of the phonecall between me and CoR (excuse me?!?). Hmm... one of our leaders was suckered into helping, and was spreading all kinds of lies... too bad she got caught by every person involved, but some were so off and they had seen them with their own eyes. There were so many lies being told it wasn't even possible to get to the bottom of them all... the call was an interview, but they had called the 'new' leaders and informed them of our dismissal three days before that? The decision hadn't been made, but your telling a leader to remove the CC from the checking account?... wow.

A call to the excectutive revealled that the CoR was NOT the CoR and was not speaking on behalf of the CO. Opps, she had no authority to fire me. I was asked 'do you want your job back'... my only response was... "I cannot work with the current troop leadership, and I will not be in a position where I am constantly getting calls from council about lies, so no, you need to remove the leadership of the troop, and I won't make you make that choice, I am going to go where I don't have this kind of drama, I am a volunteer, and this is not what I did that for"

So... the good and the bad..

1. We are in a new troop with a single small patrol... and the boys love the fact they are getting all the say in what is going on, as long as it is within scouts.

2. My leaders and cubs are now coming to the new troop with our son, to quote the boys 'scouting is scouting without those two'.

3. The old pack is down to 4 leaders and maybe 8 cubs

4. Several parents have dropped their kids from scouting, the dismissal of myself and my wife being a slap in the face and they have said if this is what scouting is they don't want to be part of it.

5. The CO will be becoming active with whatever remains of the pack, most likely they will ask the boys to move to their other pack (the CO has two packs) and fold that one.

6. The troop will still not get fed and will die off, as now they have no feeder pack at all, instead of getting at least a few boys.

Talk about chomping on the hand that feeds ya!

But hey, thanks for all your advise, I wish things could have gone better, but, even with hindsight there is nothing different I could have done... they made their choices. We look forward to a few more years of stress free scouting with people who are much into scouting and less into drama.

and sorry i haven't posted anything else, I have been dealing with this for the past month, it is amazing how much energy it has taken up.

one thought, you might find out when your district roundtables are. If your just calling CMs blind you are not going to have any idea who you are dealing with, and everybody thinks their way is the right way. At the roundtables you will meet seasoned scouters who have roots in the local packs and can really point you in the right directions... you'll all meet CMs and know they are involved, because they are at the roundtable. That is really the sniff test... if they are attending training they are trying to do the right thing. Also, you might find out who is coordinating special needs packs/troops in the area. Some larger areas have packs that have parents with lots of experience with that kind of thing (I speak from experience there, we are one of those packs in our area).

It's just a thought, when we started looking for a new troop the first thing I did was talk to the roundtable staff and find out the top troops in the area, and they had lots of great ideas.

Would you believe that I was told NOT to do any skills with him at all? Last troop meeting I brought up that something was signed off that wasn't done... Then he was asked when he would be ready for his board of review. I have gone back over everything with him, to make sure he has what he needs to succeed, because he hasn't gotten that where he was. Actually, it wasn't our idea to do the new troop... District asked us to. There are plenty in the area, but as I look at it... I only have one chance to fix this for my son, after this experience he has lost faith in scouts, and so I have asked him for a chance to fix things before he quits altogether. I have met many older scouts, and am amazed at what these boys learn.

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate your comments, knew I wasn't nuts. As my pack will have a good alternative to the broken troop, I hope the boys will follow my son, and he helps in the pack, so the boys have contact with him.

@platypus

Thank you for your comments, they dissolved the new boy patrol(and is not first class so cannot run a regular patrol). so he is no longer a PL. Adults who stand up are told to shut up or get out, and the spl (the new one) is never there... Nor was the old one. Yes, I have other parents among the leadership, but the ones who are not trained think this is how things should be run...

Again, thank you, those avenues have been exhausted though.

No, not holding a grudge... The five year ago thing was I questioned moving for so long. These events are the last 9 months. My son is fed up with failing.

Yes, it was a BSA ropes course on council property, instructors were certified

Okay, this will be a long one. Understand I am going to outline everything, and eveything I have found wrong I have addressed in committee, and the responses I have gotten are 'it ain't broke we aren't going to fix it' ... and the like.

5 years ago, we started with one pack, my son got his bobcat, but they failed to recognize him or give him his patch over the course of 3 pack meetings. Finally the patch was given to me at Scouting for food to give to him, and he was never formally recognized. We switched packs (the second time he was passed over he was in tears).

The pack we moved to was a little short on leadership, and with the problem we had had I took over advancement chair (not another boy got missed). Everything appeared to be okay, my wife took over as CC and I was ACM. Well, the current CM who was also the SM of the troop we feed would not tell the CC what was going on, would not plan for meetings, we had no clue what was going on. Three years ago he approached me the first time to take over as CM, then decided to stay on for another year. BUT, he rarely showed up to meetings, neither did his boy, I was dual registered as ACM and DL of the Webelos den (did I mention attendance was really down, in a district that has over 150 cubs, we had 50 of them). I would take his word on his boys achievements in webelos, which may have been a big mistake, but I knew he was working with him (he was also going thru a divorce at the time). Anyway, Blue and gold two years ago he dropped the whole thing in my lap 1 hour before the event (he was sick)... seriously? you didn't know you were sick before that? A little bit of a heads up should be in order. But I was a little miffed. Everything after that point was coordinated by me.

Something has to be mentioned, the CM father is the UC. Of course, we can't go to him with problems, and for some reason our UC thought his job was to act as the CC and keep my wife there as a figure head. A couple emails and a phonecall to the DUC resolved that fairly quickly. But now because of that our UC refuses to deal with any issue in the pack or troop.

I have been in place as CM for 2 years now, and my boy has moved up to the troop. The troop was definately running a troop method adult lead program, and several times we had issues. Let me start from the begining there....

For starters, we paid the OA team $200 to come out and do our Arrow of Light/crossover ceremony. Again, still getting my feet wet, never had I been told that is NOT really the way it works, friendly service. But, our pack does some pretty intense fundraisers, so we have extra money that we spend on the boys and they pay very little out of pocket.

The night of our crossover the current SM (which changes in a little bit, but this guy was all about his son getting eagle and having scoutmaster on his resume) pulls me aside and tells me that he has just had a talk with the older boys talking about sex in the tent (we use bakers, and they have all the boys sleep in one tent together, which I might add my son HATES). Then he tells me it was a bit over the top, talking about, in his exact words, some 'boy on boy action'... my initial reactions was 'what the hell!', and to take my boy and the new boys home, but he was convinced he had the situation under control, so we stuck it out (with a convo with my son in the morning to make sure none of that went on). It was a campout, but with the adults taking care of everything. No SPL or ASPL was there, the only boy that was there was a PL who thought screaming 'get your hands out of your pockets and DO something' is how you lead. The adults did the majority of the teardown and direction that morning.

Troop meetings consist of dodgeball. Opening, announcements, dodgeball... next meeting, Opening, announcements, dodgeball (did I mention the SPL and ASPL are not there, and maybe one older boy or two). We start raising questions... this can't be scouts... there is NO guidance for the boys... and from one quote I saw here, boy led does not mean boy led into the ditch... they were definately playing in the ditch.

Next campout with the troop... well... troop method... they call it 'gang style' cooking.. reality.. its the adults cooking and the scouts running errands under their direction... like 'go get some water', no patrols, all adult lead. SPL was there, but seperates himself completely from the new boys. The campout is all about ropes challenge course. more than half is new boys, ages 11-12... and SHORT. Well, my son gets up on the platform and tries his hardest, but is not tall enough to reach the saftey lines and transfer his carebeeners. After half an hour he comes down, not defeated, but just can't physically do it. After that the instructors send up a tall boy with a short boy... two of the 8 younger scouts complete the course... my son is PISSED that others got help and he was left to his own devices, period. Breaking of camp and everything else went the same way... all adult lead.

Oh, and I didn't mention... we had 7 ASMs along, and three new parents, and every time I turned around I had an ASM **** ing about another ASM or the SM. It was horrible, really, did I need to hear all that crap? Do you think the boys do not pick up on your tensions?

Mad rush before court of honor is at one meeting to get the new boys to tenderfoot. They fail my son in his board of review, although he has been to every meeting and has learned every skill they taught. First comment, 'your not in class A, we cannot do your board'... well, no boy was told this and they were ALL in class B. Then he is failed for not knowing his knots. Before his board of review they were supposed to teach the knots. Another issue, no scoutmaster conference first, this troop does a board of review with a re-exam of skills (better bring some rope to show your knots!) first, then scoutmaster conference. I knew at least four eagle scouts and a bunch of youth, and they all look at me strange when I say he has failed... wait for it ... 3 boards of review. All boards of review are done by the ASMs, and it is only two of them at that. The reason, all the males in the troop are ASM (about 9 of them) and all the females are MC (about 5).... exact quote 'the women don't know enough to re-exam the boys, they don't know the material to ask the questions'. BTW, his board of review was 45 minutes, for tenderfoot. A comment made by a member of the board 'I can't believe these boys are coming up thinking they just deserve the ranks, they have to earn them, they will appreciate it more then'... I don't know, I think we are adding to the requirements there with an ASM saying that in his eyes the boys have to earn them, I don't recall that being in the requirements 'impress the ASM on your board so he things you will appreciate the rank you have already been tested on'...

At roundtable a week later he was passed by two ASMs who happened to be there... how? Show me a square knot. Okay, you passed. 2 minutes... but wait.. it won't stick...

Scoutquest (well, that really gives it away, but so be it), the pack is the guest of the troop. I have a meeting with my parents on Wed (leaving Friday) scheduled for 6:30... I call the troop representative to find out it we need to do anything... yeah, well... NOTHING is done, nobody contacted the boys, the leaders of the troop are doing all of this and nobody has done anything. They have one of their two leaders that were going in the hospital. They have no menu and don't have time to go shopping... The scoutmaster is out of the country for a month.

Pack parents take over... no real choice if we are going to make this work for the pack. I am not willing to cut off my nose to spite my face, I have been told that boy scouts is about letting the boys fail, but cub scouts who are here is not, I have to make this a good experience for them, besides, its not the boys who are failing, they aren't leading, they are not involved, just the troop adults. We handle menu and food, they bring equipment (well, some, they decide not to bring the trailer, and two bakers for 15 boys, thank god the pack brought extra tentage... a baker holds 5 boys, 4 in the heat of summer). When they get there, no SPL, no troop leadership (boy) and the one adult sets up his tent, opens his chair and sits down and reads his book. Well, we go into cub pack family camp mode, directing our boys... leaving the troop alone... 3 hours later we have everything set up... and the boys are still fussing with their tent... two boys are fighting about who is the most senior scout and is in charge. I walk over and ask the most senior scout 'how do you set this up'... pull him aside and tell him 'you need to stop doing, and start directing so you can see what is going on and you can lead'... he does that... bakers are up in 15 minutes, without me saying another word. It ain't rocket science... troop leader, still reading his book.

Everything goes fine that night... but the next morning, when more troop leaders arrive, all hell breaks loose between me and them... first remarks to my wife 'where's the old goat box and my coffee!'... what the $$$$? We tell him troop did not bring all the equipment, then he goes off on the menu... your kidding me? I LEAVE camp for an hour to cool off... boys were off doing other things... they were eating breakfast, left CC and a ACM in charge... I just couldn't take anymore without completely blowing a gasket.

After the days events we had back to camp, and again I get grief from this ASM. Telling me we don't have enough time... I say.. 'fire up three firepits, and we will be fine'... more arguments... I walk away and go find a friend of mine in another troop.. troop is in charge at this point and their boys are cooking. Pizza is 5 minutes away if needed and I can get food for the pack if they fail. When I come back only 2 firepits are fired up, and we finish in PLENTY of time. The ASM comes over and apologized to me, saying he understands it is my first time planning something like this (opps, wrong, do family camping with the pack all the time, which without support from the troop is all this turned into anyway, the troop was there to help, when they should have been the ones leading, and they KNEW this as this was supposed to have been in planning months before).

The next morning, we break camp, under the direction of the adults and go home.

Oh, forgot that after arriving there, the leader sitting in the chair tells me that I need to inform my son that the board of review at the roundtable doesn't count and he will have to do it again.

My son schedules a board of review (according to the SHB, the scoutmaster schedules). He meets with an ASM and the CC (2 people again) and an hour and a half later has passed his tenderfoot board of review.

At this point is where relationships between the troop and pack begin to break down, not at all related to my son. We have a joint picnic every summer... and we pay for food and troop pays for location... remember... about 70 people total... My wife and the ASM (who will become the SM again in a couple months, and was the SM for a couple years, and this is the former CM) get into it because he says the boys can wear class b's to this, and during their scoutmaster conferences... the SM disagrees and boys have to run home and get uniforms (misinformed by the ASM). We get the bill... $200 for food. I look up the cost of the venue... $75 bucks... we tell them combine and you will pay for half and we will pay for half. Why? more than half the food was left over, and it all went home with the ASM who did the buying and gave us the bill, all on his own. Not giving someone $100 in meat for their own use out of scout funds.

After the picnic, I talk to the ASM who failed my son on his first board of review. He tells me he doesn't really feel the requirements are right anyway... who is he to hold a boy back who can't swim from the rank of first class.... excuse me? Seriously?

Summercamp... things get worse. We have 15 boys and 9 ASMs at summercamp, no SPL, just a troop guide who thinks screaming is leading. No guidance from the leaders (I am away at ASM training the entire time). Not to mention we stop using patrols, they create new patrols just for summer camp, and tell my son to step down as PL for the duration... it was not explained well to him. My son wants to quit the second day after the guide screams at him... we get that straightened out. Then, on Thursday, it comes up that he and I have to leave a day early... immediately we get told he and I won't be eligble for OA next year... well... camp is 7 days, 6 night, requirement is 6 days, 5 nights... thanks again. The reason we were leaving? I had to take my younger to dad and lad... and after losing a child a couple years ago, we don't let the boys out with people we don't trust.. and the troop after everything else we have seen, we do not trust. So, my wife says she'll come down... at that point the suggestion is we leave at midnight to count the night, because they don't want any women in camp. In particular, not my wife... they don't like her, why? because she says her mind and holds people accountable. I mean the look of fear that came over these mens faces was just plain funny... a woman? in camp? OMG what are we going to do now? the world is going to end!

Before leaving my son ask for a board of review for second class.... he gets one... another hour and a half, another fail. Come back in a week because he didn't know the 3 r's of child abuse. I said "was it checked off?" they said yes, then I am asking why are you re-examing? They say because his book was signed off in under 5 minutes by the troop guide and they saw this, this is why they re-examed him on everything... okay... 'let's get the troop guide over here and find out why he did this' (btw, I have now completed ASM/SM/MC/CC training and have had everything I though validated about this troop)... oh, we'll handle that... hmm... fine. We go home. My son tells me he is done with scouts. I tell him we will find a new troop, he is not allowed to quit scouts as it is the adults that appear to be ruining it for him, we will fix this.

Aftermath.. 1 scouter hospitalized, 1 scout hospitalized, and 4 scouts have to see the doctor for various ailments aquired during summer camp. Mainly from excessive chigger bites and not taking care of blisters that got infected and became very nasty. Did I mention one scout for shoes only brought flip-flops?

I go to the district about all of this. They say 'fix it or find a new troop, they are their way to exploding anyway'... I say we would like to try to fix it... next roundtable... they district puts out a guide on how to conduct a board of review... troops reaction... guideline only, throw it out... I have been throwing a fit about boards of review in the troop, with the advancement chair and an ASM who is trying to do the program, trying to get things to change, walking them thru faulted logic... and all appears to be getting better... but my son is getting more fed up... dodgeball... dodgeball and more dodgeball...

Then my son has his board of review... with just the Advancement chair on it (UC refused to sit because scoutmaster requested him not to). The scoutmaster wanted to change the date so that myself or my wife could not be nearby (school night for scouting)... great... I sit in (not voting, not discussing, purely for 2 deep)... and sure as .... he does a re-exam... but as it is not 10:30pm at night after a day at camp, my son passes with flying colors. The advancement chair made a promise to my boy and kept it, and I do thank him for that.

We attend the court of honor, and my wife and I are in our scouter uniforms, and sit with the leaders. My wife gets told to go sit with the women or go back and help with the food because that's where she belongs.

During this timeframe we are starting a fundraiser... we are getting zero help from the troop, although we asked if they wanted in and they said sure...

Following troop meeting is elections. The SM throws out the votes for SPL and ask the ASMs to pick a new SPL instead. I disagree with this and am told this is the way it is really done (I have been told to sit down and shut up before).

Next troop meeting is about a campout that weekend... we say we have other obligations with the pack... an ASM tells my wife she needs to cut the apron strings (remmeber, dead kid, not like that is going to happen with my 11 year old), he of course then starts to backpeddle and say 'well, hopefully someday you'll trust us with your son'... 6 have to see a doctor after weeklong? not anytime soon.

The next committee meeting gets cancelled... the CC says there will be no more, we are just doing parent meetings as all the parents are part of the committee. The SM steps down.. and...

ALL THE PARENTS VOTE ONE THE NEW SM. Not the committee, all the parents... it is discussed how the troop will be lead... and that when the SPL is not there (because they will not hold an SPL accountable). My wife and the mother of the former SPL get into it... mind you, we have seen the SPL twice in a year at this point, and with the exception of the last two months, we have been at every function.

Given our choices of a adult leader who screams at the boys and a SM who has a track record of never being there, we do a protest vote.

Well, the former CM and SM gets to be SM again... again, no good choices... why didn't myself or my wife go for it? That I can't answer, mostly because this guy is charismatic and the parents love him (the leaders, except the CC which is a close friend can't stand him)... my guess is that it was a parent vote instead of committee vote because the leaders wouldn't have voted him in and the CC wants him as SM.

We stop attending troop meetings... except for the fundraiser stuff... The last tie we have to the troop. I go to district (DD) and ask his opion for a better troop. He tells me to go form my own, there is one that just folded and has money and equipment, get some boys and do it right, like you have with the pack. I am fed up, completely, my son loves the boys, but anytime he comes into contact with the adults it is a disaster. It feels like a good idea, my wife and I talk it over with the leaders of the boys coming up in the cub pack... and we decide to do it.

Scouting for food, DD shows up to talk to me and my wife about the new troop... as soon as he leaves the SM flips out and calls my wife screaming 'do you have a problem with us starting early?'... my wife tells him no, it was about the firehouse vs church thing, and other items with the pack, not the troop.

Fundraiser... pack involvment 75%, troop 25%, just the manpower and resources brought to the fundraiser.... 11:30 at night on Saturday we get done, takes from 2pm till 9pm on Sunday for us to get the breakdown done... nobody from the troop offers to help... they just call every so often and ask how things are going.

9:30 monday morning the district calls me with accusations from the troop that we are stealing their money from the fundraiser. My wife hasn't even been to the bank yet to deposit the checks... nobody called before that. We get a text from the SM saying he wasn't accusing, but some in the troop are asking that question, and what is this about a new troop? Why not stand up instead of just complaining (I did stand up, I am an ASM, my wife is a MC)... We are fixing the problem, the only way we can see... My wife is in tears, she just got accused of stealing money from scouts. I am completely pissed off. Mind you, I am the cubmaster of the feeder pack for this SM. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. Not to mention, we made more in that fundraiser for the troop than they can all year (because they never commit and get anything done, the committee does not support the boys, it gets in the way). We split the fund 50/50, as they stated they wanted for their involvment, and I told them that it is on them about their lack of help. I am done with it.

Now, I have a completely broken relationship with the SM, and district was worried about me burning the bridge with what they did with my son (btw, it was the classic, 'that's the cubmaster's son, he needs to be held to a different standard than regular boys). I am staying with the pack as CM for the next couple years (I have a son in that pack still, and a bunch of boys that look up to me), and I am going to advise the boys to shop around for a troop. I don't think I should tell the parents about the issues we have had, then again, I can't let someone walk into this situation blind... they are not running the BSA program at all.

Any advice? Yes, I know we should have left that troop at the first failed board when they told me they do things their own way, not by the book... and even my son questions now, going 'hey its says this here, why aren't they doing that?'. I think it was because I thought at first it was me, when before we switched packs over advancement being missed for 3 months... but I have found that half the boys don't leave from the pack and go to that troop, they go elsewhere, because of that SM.(This message has been edited by concscouter)