clemlaw

>>>>>So hay how about that new knot! (Lol)

>>>>>IMHO - the BSA's directive towards specific recruiting of hispantics is flat out racist and runs counter to what the BSA stands for.

>>>>>We need to offer a product the hispanic community wants.

I'm not familiar enough with it to know how well it works, but our council has a non-geographic district specifically targeted to the Hispanic community:

http://elsol.nsbsa.org/

(There are similar districts for the Asian and African-American communities.)

If I were in charge, that's not necessarily the way I would do things. But I'm not in charge. And again, I don't really have any personal knowledge about how well it's working.

I do know of one Asian troop in our Council that is fabulously successful, and has really made a huge difference for a lot of kids. I suspect most of that success comes from the leadership of that particular troop, although I'm sure the Council also had something to do with it.

I've also wondered about those ads. I could be wrong, but I assumed their intended message is, "if this whole Scouting thing isn't having the desired effect on Junior, send him to us and we'll take care of him."

But again, I could be wrong.

>>>>I understand where you're coming from with thinking that these issues won't hold back individuals from joining. That's the absolute truth.

---but shouldn't our focus be on teaching those people ENGLISH to live in an english speaking country---

The mission of the BSA has never been to teach adults anything. The mission of Cub Scouts is to provide fun activities for kids. Kids are sponges, and they will soak it up in whatever language it's presented, as long as it is fun.

But to get those kids in the door, we need to communicate to the parents that we're going to provide a worthwhile activity, that we're going to provide a safe activity, and that their kids are going to have fun.

If we need to find someone who speaks Klingon in order to make sure they know those things, then we should find someone who can explain it to them in Klingon.

It sounds like you're taking a good approach. I'm by no means an expert, but my wife is Mexican, so I guess my son is one of those kids you want to recruit.

First of all, I'm not familiar with the program your council has (mine has something similar, though), but I have my doubts about the wisdom of having some kind of special program that targets one particular group. Maybe I'm wrong, and every single Hispanic kid loves soccer, and Anglo kids hate soccer. But I suspect that the kids, whether their families stepped off the Mayflower, whether they're from Mexico, or whether they're from the Planet Zontar, are mostly just interested in having fun.

And the kids will do just fine and have fun, whether or not the program is targeted to their particular culture. It seems to me that the main thing is to make sure that the _parents_ find a convenient and welcoming environment.

And it sounds like you're thinking along the same lines. Having someone available at meetings (especially recruiting nights, etc.) who can explain things in Spanish (or any other language in the area) would be critical. For the kids, it probably doesn't matter what language the book is in. If Spanish is the main language spoken at home, then for Tigers and Wolves especially, I would recommend that they get the Spanish edition, because it will be the parents who do most of the reading. For Webelos, I might lean toward the English version, if that's the language the kid uses mostly at school, since it's mostly him who is going to be using it.

The Pack we were with last year was very multicultural. We had to move because of meeting night issues, and the one we're in this year is a typical suburban pack. On the other hand, within a couple of blocks of our CO, there are apartment buildings full of kids of various colors, languages, and cultures, all of whom would probably love being in Cub Scouts. The Pack doesn't know it yet (I don't want to rock the boat too much as a newbie) but within a couple of years, we're going to start doing some serious recruiting of those kids. So I look forward to seeing your ideas!

The more I think about this, there is only one logical conclusion. The entire Pack needs to be disbanded!

As everyone has dutifully quoted, the rules demand that the beads be awarded. But the rules do not state that the Den Leader must be the person to hand them out. So we have this Den Leader who isn't doing the job, but apparently, nobody else in the Pack is stepping up to the plate to help out and do this job.

They're apparently aware of this refusal, yet they do nothing about it! I bet they also allow smoking, drinking, swearing, and stealing at the Pack meetings.

Personally, I think that would be rather drastic. But that's the logical conclusion. Apparently, _nobody_ is handing out the beads. We have a volunteer den leader who is, as far as we know, doing his job completely, with the exception of the beads. Apparently, nobody else is willing to take on that part of the job, either. Why should his head be the only one to roll?

They obviously already approached him. If they hadn't approached him, he couldn't have refused.

Since he is refusing, all they can do is remove him or threaten to remove him.

If I'm wrong, what else can they do?

-----There probably isn't a troop around with the kind of program where scouts practice every skill in the Boy Scout Handbook.----

But I think if the troop has a good program, they should be doing things to practice most of them. They've changed a little bit since my time in Scouts, but not too much. As I look through them, I would say that most of them are things that Scouts will do routinely, if they're engaged in a halfway decent program.

If a Scout forgot how to tie a taut line hitch, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Maybe he did use a bungee cord to put up his tent. So I wouldn't flunk him out of his BOR for that.

On the other hand, if he doesn't have a clue about how to put up the tent that he supposedly put up to pass a rank requirement, then I would start to think that maybe the program had failed him. Most of the requirements aren't exactly rocket science. If a Scout can't consistently do most of them, then I wonder whether the program is giving him enough opportunities to do these fun things.

In short, it probably means that there is too much emphasis on the requirements being requirements. They're not really requirements--they're the things you learn by doing a lot of fun stuff. It seems to me that if everyone viewed them that way, then the BOR would revert to being what it was when I was a Scout--a mere formality, and a chance for a pat on the back.(This message has been edited by clemlaw)

IMHO, if it's even an issue about whether or not a Scout will "pass" his BOR, then there's a big problem with the program.

Yes, I suppose that even in the best program, one or two Scouts might show up occasionally having forgotten how to tie a bowline.

But if large numbers of scouts have forgotten basic skills, then the BOR should indeed give out a failing grade. But the program, and not the Scout, has obviously earned it.

If a troop is worried about "re-testing", then I think they're looking in the wrong place. There shouldn't be any "testing" in the first place, for the vast majority of the requirements. If the requirement is "tie a taut line hitch", then the way to sign it off is to look at the tent that the scout put up and have him show you where he used that knot. There is absolutely no need to have any "testing".

I suppose there are a few requirements where a "test" is the best or only way to do it, (e.g., pass the BSA swimmer test). But most of the requirements are best met without the Scout knowing that a "test" is taking place.

If no test is necessary, then no re-testing will be necessary.

As I noted above, I don't even remember my boards of review, so they must not have been nearly as traumatic as the ones that are apparently taking place today. I can only conclude that in a well-run program (such as the one I think I was in), the BOR is a mere formality. If it's not a mere formality, then I suggest the problem lies somewhere else.(This message has been edited by clemlaw)

If some cartoonist draws a set of cartoons about various faith traditions and knocks on the door of BL and tries to sell them, they might actually be pretty good, and BL might buy them.

On the other hand, if someone at the top makes a decision that BL needs to have cartoons about various faith traditions, then the resulting comic is guaranteed to be something that will bore the readers to tears.

Complaining about it might possibly result in someone at the top making a decision, but I doubt if it will result in any additional interesting content.

Incidentally, I found it interesting that someone chose to bump this thread in order to link to a website for disgruntled Mormons. I'm not LDS, but I found that site quite amusing. Basically, it's a place for people to post stories, most of which amounted to the following:

"My estranged spouse is Mormon and wants our son to be in the Mormon Boy Scout troop. I don't want our son to be in the Mormon Boy Scout troop. Therefore, I have decided that I will be rude to the leaders of the Mormon Boy Scout troop. That'll show 'em."

Occasionally, these stories are augmented with interesting details such as the kid who got a fish hook stuck in his finger.

Maybe the website could be turned into a comic strip and sold to BL.

Incidentally, I don't think I ever read the "Bible Stories" cartoon as a youth. (I guess I just assumed that it had been placed there because of some edict from the top, and it would probably bore me to tears.) I was always more interested in "Scouts in Action".

Anyone can get a square knot. I'm still trying to figure out what I have to do to get a granny knot!

>>>>>>A Den Leader should follow the Cub Scout program as closely as possible as given

>>>>>When I took Atomic Energy, it WAS a district-wide thing

>>>>>>I guess my biggest problem is that I have doubts that his parents would even try to make an attempt at trying to schedule this event as a family activity. The boy seems genuinely interested in the program but his parents lack the same enthusiasm.

I have another horrible confession to make. I'm sure it's partially my fuzzy memory after almost 40 years. But I don't remember any of my Boards of Review for Tenderfoot through Life! I have a vague recollection of my Eagle Board of Review, but I don't remember it as being anything particularly traumatic or even memorable.

I know I must have had them, but it apparently wasn't as big a deal back in the day. It certainly wasn't an inquisition. If anything, it was probably more of a pat on the back for getting everything done.

And I only have one recollection of anyone failing a Board of Review. One of the members of the board was a crumudgeon type, and I remember that one poor kid apparently didn't remember one of his first aid requirements, probably for First Class. The crumudgeon proclaimed that first aid was important, and the kid was sent packing from the Board of Review. He went and brushed up on his skills, and he passed his Board the next week or whatever.

That was almost scandalous, and as far as anyone knew, it had never happened in the history of the BSA.

Generally, when Scouts were signed off on requirements, they knew the requirement pretty well. And with that one exception, the Board of Review generally agreed.

It seems to me that if the program is working relatively well, that's what the Board of Review should be doing. They engage in a formality, and pat the scout on the back. Perhaps on rare occasions, they need to flunk a scout and have him brush up on something. But with a decent program, that should be pretty rare.

I remember _doing_ lots of things as a Scout, but the Boards of Review weren't very memorable. And it seems to me that's the way they should be--if everything is running smoothly, they shouldn't be a very memorable experience.

There's one thing that I'm very curious about.

Can most Merit Badge counsellors rightfully say that they are an "expert" on the subject that they are counselling?

Maybe I'm wrong (I hope I'm wrong), but I get the distinct impression that these days, a lot of MB's are counseled by parents in the troop who are able to do the requirements, and they are therefore qualified to be a counselor.

But if this is being done, then this is shortchanging the scouts of an opportunity to meet with and interact with people who are experts.

For example, there's a Dentistry MB, right? The requirements are such that any boy aged 11-17 is able to fulfill them, if he sets his mind to it. Therefore, it stands to reason that any parent, if they set their mind to it, is going to have enough minimal skill to understand the requirements and sign them off. So if Junior wants to get Dentistry MB, is there a temptation to send him to Mr. X, the Assistant Scoutmaster, because Mr. X knows how to brush his teeth, and he'll be able to see if Junior meets the requirements?

If any troops are doing this, then please stop it! Junior will get infinitely more out of the program if Mr. X instead uses that time to talk to some dentists and recruit one to counsel the MB, if the Council does not already have one.

One of the MB's I earned as a Scout was Atomic Energy (or some similar name--it's changed over the years). Yes, there was probably someone in the troop who could have figured out the requirements and signed me off. But I got a heckuva lot more out of it by having to call up an adult who worked in that industry.

Now, there are obviously some MB's where many adult leaders are indeed "experts" just by virtue of the fact that they are involved in Scouting--for example, camping, hiking, etc. So those are special cases, and it's probably a good idea to use a "troop counselor" for those. But for merit badges that don't specifically relate to scoutcraft, you're really doing your kids a big disservice if you don't let them find bona-fide experts to counsel the badge.

BSA73,

I'm also a new TDL, but I've only been away from Scouting for about 30 years.

The issue hasn't come up yet, but the Older Person/Museum visit was one of our first meetings, and we had a couple of new Tigers since then. I figure that even though it's supposed to be a Den activity, it's within the spirit of the rule to just have them do it as a family.

We're also having problems arranging the TV/Radio station visit. I've found a few local stations that are willing to give tours, but so far, they're only available during the workday, when we're not. If we can't line anything up, we'll just wing it. In fact, if we can't do anything else, I'm a ham radio operator, so I'll just bring my own station to the meeting. (If others are having the same problem, chances are, there's a local ham radio club that would be happy to give a demo--feel free to PM me if you want help finding one.)

>>>>>I read that paragraph from that parent and no where in it do I see mention that the parent corrected the problem.

Ah, I feel much better.

That must have been the "merit badge" that his "boy scout" was working on.

As Emily Litella would say, "never mind". (This message has been edited by clemlaw)

Just to make sure, I looked through the Communications MB requirements, and I didn't see anything about a crystal set. And I can't think of any other MB where it's a requirement.

So that gives me hope that perhaps his son is a Cub Scout, and instead of a "merit badge", it was actually some elective or something.

If that's the case, other than being a little bit mixed up on the terminology, everything is well.

Well, yes.

My first reaction was to blame the whole BSA, so at least I narrowed it down a little bit more. But you're right--it might not be the troop's fault.

But yes, it might be one parent who hasn't figured out the program. Like I mentioned, perhaps the most troubling part was the fact that the guy felt comfortable telling this story in public.

In the other thread, allangr1024 wrote:

>>>>So we tend to have inexperienced and untrained MBC's who are brought in to troop meetings to teach the badge, and the scouts do not learn the stuff well. As someone has said, it is too much like school. >My son needed to build a crystal diode radio for the Communications Merit Badge in the Boy Scouts. I searched the internet to find a good price and this was it. The instructions were fairly easy to understand and my son built it himself without supervision. But he was unable to get it working. I took a look at it and found that the problems he had were primarily due to incorrectly orienting the kit's chassis to the drawing. Maybe colored springs would make it easier to know what connects where but I can't fault them for that, there needs to be some challenge. The real issue I have with the radio is it doesn't pull in radio stations very well..... However the radio worked just enough for my son to get his merit badge.