CharityAK

I thought I'd provide an update on this issue.

I received a call last week from a national scouter in charge of creating and maintaining the "do not register" list (forgot what he called it exactly). A very nice person who sensitively handled a difficult issue. For some reason he had only just received the case that I had reported almost 2 years ago! Since the scout in question had been flagged as extremely dangerous he was following up with further research.

He was able to assure me that his young man would NEVER again be involved in scouting in any way, shape or form. I feel very relieved and am so grateful that BSA takes these precautions. I'm sure this national scouter's job must be very unpleasant at times but I am so glad that he is there doing it.

Charity

You go, rooster.

And I thought chivalry was dead right along with acknowledging the value of feminine contribution in the home....

Charity

Forgot to say...

I also really liked the advice to have son put his plans in writing. This would go a long way towards reassuring leadership that the boys have indeed thought things through and made plans. And it's just a good skill for the boys to develop as well. SM must have felt some confidence in son's planning because he asked him to consider running for SPL - which son has decided to do.

Charity

Thanks for your great insight and helpful comments! The boys had a blast with their biking weekend. Everything went well for them. No evidence of any hard feelings on anybody's part. You are right...we have a good SM, lots of experience, very committed and selfless. That's why I was concerned about my son needing to be open to hearing his input. He has years and years of experience in scouting and I know he sees things the boys don't. Since SM can be a bit gruff on occasion, sometimes the boys think he's just being a pain and miss the point he's trying to help them see. The fact that the weekend went so well should build confidence on both sides - both in themselves and in each other.

Charity

FOG - ROFL! You're right! That's probably an even more likely scenario in today's culture.

Charity

>A friend's wife suffers from asthma and asked a >man smoking near her to not smoke because it was >aggrevating her condition. He blew smoke in her >face. She kicked him in the crotch

And the scenario ends like this in today's litigious climate...He sued her and won a ridiculous claim which put her family in bankruptcy court.

Charity

Just to throw a clinker in the discussion...*BWG* how far does the expectations of being a good role-model go? Do we throw out a scoutmaster who has been unfaithful to his wife? Is a screamer? Uses minor profanity? Has a twinkie addiction? Do we throw out a scoutmaster whose son is on drugs and daughter is pregnant out of wedlock (if he can't manage his own household, how is he fit to lead my kids?)? Makes remarks like "Whoa! Now there's a hot babe!" Makes derogatory remarks about minorities? Buys the occasional pull-tabs? Our SMs are good men. We're not dealing with these issues. But on the smoking issue, I am more concerned about the poor example of non-adherence to policy than the issue of a poor health habit.

I do think that a scoutmaster should be a good role model to a certain degree. I also expect this to some degree of our family's karate instructor. BUT...at the end of the day, it is OUR obligation as parents to instill values in OUR sons. I don't appreciate a scoutmaster who blatantly disregards the rules, but if my son makes poor choices it's not the SM who failed but his father and I. We should be raising a son strong enough to withstand the failure of others to be all they should be. And even after we've done our job to the very best of our ability, our son's poor choices, in the end, will be no one's fault but his own.

Charity

According to the clip from p. 19 of the Guide to Safe Scouting (assuming the individual providing the clip in the earlier post did so correctly)

"Adult leaders should support the attitude that young adults are better off without tobacco and may not allow the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants."

To me, "may not allow" means that even if a leader didn't have a problem with smoking and didn't care whether or not smoking was present, he does not have the liberty to allow it at a BSA event with scouts present. It would be okay to allow smoking at an adults only event.

I agree that the anti-smoking movement has reached Nazi proportions. I agree that character and integrity are internal issues that cannot be deemed missing in someone's life because they smoke. BUT...disregard of the rules is a character issue. Once policy is understood (doesn't sound like it was made clear at the event you attended), then there should be compliance or it does become an issue of poor role-modeling.

Charity

Adults smoking in front of my son would be sufficient reason for me to leave the troop for a couple of reasons.

One, I do not wish my son to be exposed to secondhand smoke. He has asthma and chronic bronchitis. He doesn't need to be breathing that crap. I do not see this as being the same as having an overweight SM. Our SM being overweight does not pose a health risk for others.

Secondly, the real point, however, is not my opinion or the opinion of others, but what is policy? All adults should follow policy whether they agree with it or not. The Guide of Safe Scouting disallows the use of tobacco at scouting events. Disrespect and disobedience of the rules shown by adults IS a far more serious role-modeling issue than smoking. Doesn't a scout promise to be "obedient"? How can we justify adult flaunting the rules in a scout's face and then expect them to play by the rules?

Charity

My son, a patrol leader, came home from scouts a bit frustrated (I'm the Advancement Chair, but was at karate class). They have Fall Jamboree this weekend. His patrol had planned to do some "extreme biking". They had discussed this for several weeks, planned it, etc. I wasn't there so I'm assuming, based on what he told me, that they did an adequate job planning. There was some resistance from the scout leaders who seemed to prefer that the boys go hiking instead. Not sure what their concerns were as I wasn't there, but I'm assuming the leaders concerns were valid as these are reasonable men who I trust. The boys, citing the leaders oft-quoted philosophy that the boys should show initiative, leadership..the whole boy-ran-troop thing, held their ground on the biking and thought the issue was settled. Last night going over the last minute checking for the weekend, the leaders again resisted the biking and tried to axe it. Son said he and the SM had a bit of a "battle of the wills" regarding the issue with him pointing out that they had already planned, discussed it and thought it was settled. The boys prevailed, but I guess the leaders aren't happy about it. The boys also mentioned their concerns about the "boy ran troop" thing being mouthed but not feeling supported in it with the Committee Chair.

My concern:

*Was my son respectful in holding his ground? He says he was. Should he have just done what the SM wanted? Should I follow up with SM to see if there was a problem? Or should I just butt out and let the SM and son work this out between the two of them? The SM and I are on good terms. I trust him and consider him a friend of the family. I would hope he would tell me if son copped an attitude as I'd want to address it as a point of character instruction at home. Son is usually a person of integrity, but can be tactless at times.

And for general discussion...

The scout leader has the benefit of experience and wisdom in foreseeing problems boys may not when they are selecting and planning events. When it comes down to a disagreement regarding preferences for an event whose desires win out? The leadership? The boys? What if the leadership really dislikes a patrol's decision? How far do boys go in holding their ground in order to be a boy-ran troop? Or should they recognize the experience of their elders and go with their guidance?

Charity - Trying to help son be balanced. Be a leader and be strong when he thinks he's right but meeting resistance WHILE also be willing to consider that he might be wrong and others know better.....

DSteele - Forgive my ignorance...only been in scouting for about 2 years. By "Scout Executive" you mean the guy at the very top? Are you advising that I send a copy of this young man's conviction to national headquarters? I have already given a copy to our district executive.

Charity

I don't want to get into all the details on a public forum. Let me just say that our family has complete legal right to those records. They were given to me by legal counsel.

As far as the nature of the assault, again, a sensitive issue. I don't want to describe the nasty details. But the young man was guilty of first degree sexual assault against preschool children. This was way beyond kissing.

He is a serious threat to the community despite his young age.

Charity

This abuse happened BY a scout, but not TO a scout. The abuse occurred in the context of private homes with the scout acting as a friend or babysitter. Since he is a juvenile, many of the child protection laws do not apply to him. It was very unusual for him to have served anytime at all. Usually a juvenile offender just gets "counseling". The sentencing only happened through the very hard work of one set of parents. The other parents didn't want to get involved.

As far as defamation...I thought that could only be charged if the statements made are untrue. I am in possession of all of the police records and the court transcripts so I'm not sure how we could be accused of making false statements as long as we stick to the facts?? I wouldn't act publicly unless I felt it was necessary to protect children and we would consult a lawyer first.

My biggest concern is that he will appear "clean" if he ever tries to become a SM or ASM once he becomes an adult. He is 17 now and getting out of detention this month - which is why it's on my mind now after 2 years. I'm concerned that he will apply for a scouting position or in a day care or something and his juvenile record won't follow him.

Charity

The scout who recruited my older son to our troop lived in our neighborhood, was a close friend of our family (we had no idea of his predilections and made the erroneous assumption that he was a great kid - after all he was a high-ranking scout!) but was convicted and sentenced to two years for sexual assault of four children in our neighborhood. There were other victims starting back when he was as young as 11. Our family had to be witnesses in the trial and were the only ones in the troop who knew of the conviction. The mom spun a web of lies as to her son's absence and continues to lie about his whereabouts. We did not "out" him to the troop as we were protecting a victim who wanted his identity protected.

I did, however, report him to the district council. I am concerned, however, that because he is a minor, no criminal record of this will follow him into adulthood. He could register as a scout leader when he becomes an adult and his background check would be clean.

The child advocates we worked with said he was one of the worst offenders they had ever seen. They said his methods of seduction were as advanced and sophisticated as a lifetime offender and that he would be an extreme threat to the community upon his release. Even more so because his juvenile record will not be available to the public.

Have we done everything we can to protect scouts from this boy? Should we send out a letter to all the troops in our area? To national headquarters?

Charity

FOG - I agree with you. True scout spirit means being resourceful, showing initiative and a can-do spirit. I also think that a kid needs the support of his parents. And I think it is the obligation of a parent to help their kid be successful - not do it for them, but make sure the child is enabled and supported in their own efforts. I see parents as enablers (I mean that in the healthy sense of the word). Hate to invoke Bette Midler tripe...but that whole "wind beneath my wings" thing. Now, as your post implies, that doesn't excuse a kid who really wants to advance and doesn't have parental support. He can and should still find a way to secure the tools, resources, etc. he needs. But there aren't that many kids that motivated to fight against the odds and find ways around the many obstacles. The kid who succeeds despite parental indifference is an exceptional person and has my admiration and respect.

The kids I know who are not advancing in our troop (or being successful elsewhere for that matter) are kids whose parents aren't involved in the troop, involved at school, or have their heads in their kids lives in general. They are self-centeredly doing their own thing and the kids are left to fend for themselves. At the other extreme, pushy parents feeding their own egos at the expense of their children are just as selfish. It should be about the kids. At the extremes it's all about the parent.

Charity

I don't know any "pushed" Eagles, but my husband has often observed to me that not many kids make it in their chosen endeavors without parental support. I realize that isn't necessarily the same thing as being "pushed."

When I reflect back on the Eagles, valedictorians, black belts, MVPs, etc. I have known, almost all of them had involved supportive parents. My DH told me he used to think that was "cheating" (he did not have helpful parents) when he was a boy. That it wasn't fair that some parents helped their kids. Now, as a parent, he says he realizes that it's very difficult for a kid to make it without the cooperation of their parents.

Our troop currently has an Eagle candidate awaiting his BOR. It was very difficult for him to make it because he had so little parental support. If a kid doesn't have access to funds, how does he buy some of the supplies needed for the various merit badges? If he doesn't have a car, how does he drive to the bait shop to get worms for his Envi-Sci work? If his parents don't make his getting to scouts a priority, how does he attend regularly enough to rise to leadership?

I know many adults, now highly successful, who credit involved parents with one of the reasons they are where they are today. I know few people who had indifferent parents who are happy with where they are today.

Where that line is that separates being involved, supportive and appropriately nag-gy from being "pushy" and obnoxious... that's a bit of a gray area.

Charity

I keep getting the same questions over and over from parents - especially those crossing over from Webelos. I've encouraged them to read the Handbook, but they don't seem satisfied with that. I'm glad they are interested! The guide is just a 12 page brochure that explains how the ranks work, how badges are earned, what the Advancement Chair does, what parents do, what scoutmasters do, etc. There is a section on FAQ and a bibliography that lists websites and other materials that may be of interest. We had some problem with parents getting irate because their boys weren't advancing. These parents expected the boys to be spoonfed their badges and advancements. I'm hoping that a guide specifically designed for parents can help cut back on misunderstandings and give me something to hand them when I keep getting the same questions over and over.

Just a tool to assist understanding...

Charity

In the posts here I occasionally see references to the advancement policy book. I need one of these as I often have questions regarding advancement policy and hate to keeping asking questions here or of our scoutmaster. I usually know the obvious answers but have occasional detailed questions that need more than an opinion survey of our adult leaders. *g* Is this something I could buy at our council office? I don't think I've seen anything like that there. Perhaps I have to order it from BSA?

I'm developing an advancement guide for parents and I want to ascertain that everything in there is correct before I hand it out to them.

Charity(This message has been edited by CharityAK)(This message has been edited by CharityAK)

Thank you all for your input. This helps tremendously. I know this young man is not the only young man in our troop who does not have a regular church home. This is only our second Eagle and the other young man was quite religious and a regular church attender so this is the first time we've faced this issue. I think I know how to best help him now should the reference letter not show up here soon.

Thanks!

Charity

I was checking at our district office on the status of our current Eagle-to-be. Seems the only thing hanging up his BOR is that his religious reference letter hasn't yet come in. I then talked to the young man about it.

Seems this was a church that he rarely (read holidays, maybe) attended in Texas quite a few years ago. He's not even sure this pastor is still at this church. His family does not attend church anywhere here in Alaska.

I know that a scout swears to do "duty to God" and "to be reverent", but does he have to have a home church and be in regular enough attendance to be known by a spiritual leader? What do I do with a scout who is not attending church? Where do they get a religious reference?

What should this young man do if no reference letter returns from this church in Texas? He says he went to a youth group a handful of times on a military base but doesn't even know the youth leader's name to use him for a reference.

What do I do to assist this young man? Or is this simply between the young man and the district office at this point?

Charity

Advancement Chair(This message has been edited by CharityAK)

ROFL!!! I couldn't figure out what you were talking about with the tools. I forgot that I had made something else with a canoe theme. The item on the cutting mat is a double-handed potholder with machine embroidered state motif. Tennessee on one end and Alaska on the other. I made that for the wife of the man who ran the BSA camp this summer. My son was on staff and the this wonderful woman was "staff Mom". It was a thank you present for taking such good care of my boy. The couple was from TN but love Alaska and that's why I did the state motifs on the hands of the oven mitt.

The Scoutmaster's quilt is the last set of pics. IT's laid out on the floor and has the homespun blocks with the signature strips. It has a fishing print border and hte back features the quilt label in the center with a statement of thanks, the dates of his service, the name of the quilt and the name of hte quilt makers.

Charity

The quilt turned out great! I'm still tacking the binding in place but other than that it's done. We give it to him on Thursday. I have pics at

http://www.ofoto.com

You'll have to type in

lovelace@mtaonline.net

And t0by for the password (that's a zero not the letter o)

It's in the file called "Sewing Projects"

Charity

Something about this boy's behavior really concerns me. Hate to be guilty of psychobabble, but he doesn't seem to have a normal understanding of appropriate personal boundaries (asking for money for a personal item from a minor acquaintance). That combined with what appears to be the lack of parental involvement makes him an easy target for predators. I think I'd try to learn more about him and try to initiate an acquaintance with his parents. Something doesn't sound right.

Charity

As Advancement Chair of our troop, I've created BOR guides for BOR members to use during the review. It lists questions that would be appropriate for each rank level. It also briefly explains the purpose of the review.

Before calling the boy in I always explain to the team that we are not retesting the boy. I usually give them some examples in how the questions should/or should not be phrased. For example

ACCEPTABLE - Have you used any of your First Aid training yet? If so, how did it go for you?

NOT ACCEPTABLE- Show us how to wrap a sprained ankle.

After a handful of examples like these, most members have the idea. If I have a hard head that is determined to drill the boy, I go ahead and interrupt with a "I'd like to remind that board that the scout has already proven his mastery of the requirements. We are here to review the candidates scouting experience to date."

I may make a team member a little angry, but I'd rather tweak an adult nose than bully a scout.

Charity

We did that this summer too. My (then) 15yo son was cinematographer for 9 weeks. Fortunately, camp is only about 30 minute from our home. I managed to find something to do for the camp that kept me visiting about 2x a week (providing saddles for the Leatherwork merit badge class) I baked goodies on a regular basis and brought them with me for son to share with his friends. This helped his social status immensely. I soon had a steady line of staffers willing to haul my saddles for me and putting in their orders for the next goodie delivery. A neat bunch of kids. I enjoyed getting to know them and if I didn't have a younger child still at home would be signing up to be a commissioner in a heartbeat.

As far as food and rest...as you've probably found out by now...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!! My son lived on junk food and stayed up all hours playing games. It was like a summer-long slumber party. I didn't mind. I figured it wasn't going to kill him on a short-term basis. He was able to come home on Saturday nights and we let him sleep in and fed him extra healthy on the weekends.

The only safety issue that came up...While at camp he developed a small tumor on his scalp. When he got home we noticed it and scheduled surgery to remove it. There was some concern that it might have compromised a major artery (it turned out okay). Because of the size and location on the artery, he had to be under full anesthesia, intubated, the works. He developed some complications after surgery. Sometimes I wonder if he had been home if we wouldn't have caught the tumor earlier when it was smaller and surgery would have been less complicated.

However....He enjoyed the experience tremendously and can't wait to go back next year. He was thought well of by the other staffers and his "bosses". This was his first real job and I was delighted his experience was such a pleasant one for him.

Charity