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acco40

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Posts posted by acco40

  1. Another issue/question: Private online communications (texting, phone calls, chat, IM, etc.) must include another registered leader or parent.

    So when a Scoutmaster, alone at home, receives a telephone call from the SPL, with his younger PL brother, the Scoutmaster can't take the call?

    Obviously, these "rules" appear to be written by lawyers and not driven by common sense.

  2. That's hazy to me.  "There are careers" - does that imply a paid position?  Does that imply a full-time position?  Does that imply a paid position for significant period of time?

    At one time, Boy Scouts could go on overnight camping trips with no adult supervision present (if a patrol outing and approved by the Scoutmaster to make sure it was a well planned out event).  That's no longer allowed.  Partly due to lowering expectations of our youth and more due to the allowing of female scouts.  

    I'll admit, I haven't been actively involved with Scouting for a decade or more but I always told Scouters to look at youth protection rules as something to protect them (it was an easier sell and made them less defensive). 

    Look at this from an extreme.  You're home alone and a couple of girl scouts ring your doorbell in an attempt to sell you cookies.  Are you saying the BSA doesn't allow you to answer the door? 

  3. Slow down everyone.  Youth protection rules, per the Guide to Safe Scouting, only apply to Scouting activities.  For example, if your 18 year old son is a phenomenal guitar play and wants to to give guitar lessons to a 15 year old - no issue.  One on one contact is allowed.  If however, your same son wants to be a merit badge counselor for the music merit badge, Guide to Safe Scouting rules apply - no one on one contact with minors (unless it is your own son or daughter).

    Now I'm not saying it's a good idea to ignore those rules outside of Scouting events but they don't apply outside of scouting events.

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  4. Let me be very plain - were the adults in question "Scoutmasters" or "Assistant Scoutmasters" and were they Scouters in your son's troop?  

    Assuming they were either SM or ASM and a member of your son's troop, I'd talk with the COR, CC and/or the SM about your concerns one on one if possible.

  5. On 5/5/2021 at 1:38 PM, seguru said:

    Sorry, but before I identify as a Scouter, I first identify as an American... and anytime someone says they're going to "block" or "delete" or "censor" free speech, I say NO, and offer the warning that you don't "get it" when it comes to Free Speech.

    The proper response to "offensive" speech is MORE SPEECH, not less... especially in a forum specifically categorized as "politics" where there are deeply-held and fundamental beliefs.     The "sanitizing" of opinions is not healthy, despite your good intentions.

    I'm allowed to censor. Terry is allowed to censor.  Twitter is allowed to censor.   Facebook is allowed to censor.  The USG is not allowed to censor.  It's a really simple concept.

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  6. FWIW, I don't see anything at all wrong with the shirt.  It brings to mind a hike we had at Double H (New Mexico/Backpacking) a couple of decades ago.  One of the adult Scouters had on a pair of hot pink shorts (and I mean really short shorts).    He wasn't in our trek but our boys couldn't resist teasing me (their Scoutmaster) and insisting I get a pair to match!   It was all in good fun and out of earshot of the other group.

  7. YPT issues are shared with the Scout Executive  and all reports should be held in confidence.  However, maybe I'm old fashioned but I would not characterize this incident as a youth protection issue.  Was the Scoutmaster wrong in his behavior?  Quite possibly.  When you state your son was bullied by "two Scoutmasters" - did you mean the Scoutmaster from two different troops (quite possibly none of which belongs to your son's troop)?  Or more probably, by two Scouters that were either the SM and/or an ASM of your son's troop?  If that was the case (all parties were members of the same troop), I'd try to handle it internally and approach the COR and CC (Charter Organization Representative and Committee Chair) if you or your son don't want to deal with the SM/ASM directly.

    I can see a determination that is a judgment call on what is or what is not a "class b" (not really a scout term but widely used) but the predominant color of the short shouldn't be an issue.

  8. Around 15 or so years ago, our Boy Scout Troop attended the Dorchester International Brotherhood Camporee in Ontario, Canada.  At the time of course, the BSA youth was all male but Scouts Canada was co-ed.   When we attended I had some interesting conversations with Scouts Canada adult leaders about what they thought the plusses and minuses of "going co-ed" were for them.  About the only negative they sited was the difficulty in finding female Scouters to attend camping trips.   

    An intended benefit I saw from the boys in my troop were that the younger Scouts (not yet really interested in girls) didn't really care about the girls one way or the other but the older boys, not wanting to appear "uncool" in the presence of their female peers, curtailed some of their more undesirable shenanigans that can occur when a bunch of male teen get together.  

    Those experiences were enlightening. 

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  9. The best way to get involved is to talk to the Committee Chair and ask what areas the troop may need assistance from wrt a Scouter.  If the response is "we're covered", well that could be a possible red flag.   If the response is "we need help in the xyz area", determine if that is something you want to get involved in.  

    What you don't want to do is go in being demonstrative about a bunch of changes needed (even if they are) right from the get go.   

    IMHO, as a Scouter, do you want to work with the Committee behind the scenes or do you want to work with the youth in concert with the Scoutmaster?   That is the first decision a prospective Scouter should ask themselves.

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  10. Summary of comments

    Troopmaster ≡ Scoutmaster (correct term).   The Scoutmaster is in charge of Advancement in the troop.  FYI, Troopmaster is a software program.

    Merit Badge Counselors are not allowed to have one-on-one contact with Scouts (unless they are the legal guardian of that Scout) therefore the "at least two Scouts" rule which you may have conflated with "two merit badges."

    One does not need two adults to counsel merit badges.   There does need to be two-deep leadership for outings.   So if an outing is used to meet a merit badge requirement, two-deep leadership is required. 

     

     

     

  11. A few decades ago the "Issues & Politics" thread was created for the specific purpose to house many of the controversial areas of Scouting.   Therefore, as a moderator, it was my belief to be slightly more tolerant of behavior that I thought was questionable - that is, something I may take an issue with in "Advancement" would get more of a pass in "Issues & Politics."

    But just like I tried to discuss in a Scout like manner on  this forum why I thought the decision to ban avowed homosexuals was incorrect before the policy was changed (we could debate if it really ever was an official policy - IMHO it was not) we should be able to debate the policy now.   But we should take great care and err on the side of caution not to disparage youth for their sexual identity regardless of what it is.  That really falls out of our purview and should be up to the Scout's family and others.   I treat religion in the same way - I've been a member of a Roman Catholic charter organization and an Episcopal charter organization and am a member of neither.   I could answer questions about religion wrt the BSA but I made no attempt to "teach" the Scouts about certain denominations.   That was a task for others.

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  12. Scouting events shouldn't be used to promote gear.  I've taught certain Scout courses, to adults mostly, where we bring samples of what we own and give "pros" and "cons" to certain equipment but we don't have a vested monetary interest in what others will decide to buy.   I'm not aware of any vendors at scouting events that I've attended other than those having a general store at summer camp and vending machines with logos.

    We don't want to go "Mar-a-Lago" like or "Bedmister" like and mix scouting with for personal profit motive in our actions.   We already have enough of that in our country today (sorry for getting on my soapbox).

  13. On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 12:11 PM, Eagledad said:

    Since I'm just used to how our district performs EBORs, explain to me the difference between council members and volunteers? All our EBOR members are volunteers, but they are trained and that is their responsibility. Is that the same?

    Barry

    Who may sit on a BoR (for a troop)?  A board of three and no more than six troop committee members, all of whom must be at least 21 years of age. Unit leaders (Scoutmasters for a troop) and assistants shall not serve on a board of review for a Scout in their own unit. Parents, guardians, or relatives shall not serve on a board for their son. The candidate or his parent(s) or guardian(s) shall have no part in selecting any board of review members. 

    For an EBoR (Eagle Board of Review), the Council may make additional rules - via their advancement committee.  At the troop level, at least one district or council representative, who is not affiliated with the unit, must serve as a member (kind of a quality control person).  The EBoR is unique in that the board members (some) may be non-Scouters.

    We are all volunteers (we don't get paid).  But only some are Scouters (registered in the BSA as adults).  Usually, the term "Volunteer" is not used.  There are Scouters, non-Scouters and Scouters that are council representatives (silver shoulder loops represent district and council). 

  14. On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 11:39 AM, FireStone said:

    I think the intent of re-testing is all fine and good, but it's just not consistent with the current BSA advancement model. We're not a proficiency program anymore, although as I understand it we were, once. But that was also back before there were so many merit badges, and the idea of proficiency testing was more feasible.

    Keep in mind the folks that say you can't "retest" are sometimes misleading.  If a Scout rank has a requirement to tie a clove hitch, a BoR can and probably should ask the Scout to tie a clove hitch.   That's perfectly allowable.  The key is why?  They should do it not to test the Scout, he has already demonstrated proficiency to his "leader" if the requirement has been signed off.  The purpose is to test the Scoutmaster, who is in charge of the advancement program within the troop and see if he (or she) is doing a good job.   Heck, I don't remember if I can still tie a clove hitch knot anymore (it's been a few years) so a single Scout's success or failure to do so should be the end all or be all of the program but if the boys never seem to be able to tie knots or answer first aid questions properly during the BoR - that's a warning sign.  

    Of course, that requiremes BoR members to be knowledgeable about the requirements too - a topic for another thread.

  15. Folks, go back and see what the responsibilities are of the BoR members.  One is to make sure all of the requirements are met.  How do they do that?   They look to see if the requirements are properly signed off.   If the Scoutmaster has signed off on requirement 5 (While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community.), then by definition the requirement has been met.  Also, before a Life Scout begins his project ... Your Scoutmaster, troop Advancement Chairman, and a representative of your District  Advancement Committee, as well as the benefiting organization, must approve your project before you begin carrying it out.  So, to then go back at a BoR and say the project or Scout didn't show leadership if unfair.  Forget appealing, the adults need an education.

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  16. "We" don't show leadership.   The Eagle candidate should show leadership.  If the Scoutmaster signed off on his requirements - to the Scoutmaster your son has shown leadership in his POR (Position of Responsibility) and has give leadership to others in a service project according to his Scoutmaster.

    You may suggest to your son to confer with the BOR and Scoutmaster and see why there appears to be a disagreement on his "leadership."

    I've seen issues when a Troop Committee has issues with a Scoutmaster and Scouts get caught in the middle.  I have no idea if your son's case falls into this category but the remedy is to find a new Scoutmaster or Troop Committee or both, not to have a Scout get stuck in the middle.

    How old is your Scout?   It he has some distance between today and aging out, I'd ask for a little more clarity from the BoR members other than "do another project" about the leadership component.  Ask you son if he feels he demonstrated leadership and if he feels he has, articulate how to the BoR.  If he feels he did not, investigate further.  It sounds to me, from what little I know, the Scoutmaster (who may or may not have been his Eagle advisor) and the BoR team are not on the same page.   Sometimes that is an issue.   Per chance was the Scoutmaster the father of the Scout?

    Keep in mind the Scoutmaster is in control of advancement in a Troop.   Maybe he (or she) should have a heart to heart with the committee?

     

  17. I think it matters more what the position the Scouter holds than what are the activities of the troop.   If a Scouter is the advancement chair and really only interfaces with the boys at BORs and COHs - the level of physical activity is not high.  Keep in mind "personal fitness" is what is the priority in Scouts.  Physical fitness is just one component of personal fitness.

  18. I usually only wore my OA sash at Trooping meetings when the boys voted on new members and during OA events - ordeals for new members.   As an adult OA member but not an OA advisor, I really didn't attend more than one or two OA meetings.   It was the one "honor" I was glad my older son received before his dad.   He still remembers a year later when his dad forgot the OA "password" during his Brotherhood ceremony - okay, I've said too much already.

  19. On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2012 at 10:54 AM, desertrat77 said:

    Woapalanne, I've been in the OA since '76...and when it is time to work, my OA sash is hung over the nearest tree branch, or folded up and stowed in my pack. Also, sashes used to be much smaller in length back in the day, there was far less material to slip.

     

    But that's just me. If folks want to wear sashes to work, more power to them. But I don't think that alone justifies adding a useless appendage like loops to the uniform.

    In my council, the youth made fun of OA sash "condoms" "protective plastic sleeves to keep the sash clean while doing service - usually some sort of dirty work".   In my council, a clean sash is the sign of an inactive OA member - one who doesn't provide much service.   There was usually a clash with mothers (they hated to see the white sash get soiled) but I liked the fact that the kids were proud of their service.   A clean sash showed an OA member was a "virgin" wrt service.   ;-)

    FYI, our council (dating myself - about 10 years ago) had probably the best OA lodge in the country.

  20. 9 minutes ago, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

    I am brand new at this leadership stuff.  In my view, people need to be "voluntold".  :)  It's just like when you need someone to call 911 - you don't say, "Somebody call 911!"  Instead, you point at a particular person and say, "You call 911!"  Generic pleas for help often go unanswered because everyone assumes that someone else is going to step up.  Put people on the spot.  When you have your parents sitting there go up to a specific parent and ask them, "Will you take the YPT training this week?"  Make them commit or shirk publicly.  Go right down the row.

    No, blanket announcements of "I need a volunteer to . . ." don't work very well.  Conversely, putting people on the spot is not my favorite technique either.  One has to be a little devious but if you know the adults you should have a good idea of who may or may not be a good candidate for the position you are seeking to fill (or task to be accomplished).   It takes some skill but get with that person one-on-one, talk sincerely about the need and how you think that person would be a great asset and nine times out of ten you close the deal - no public shaming required.

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  21. G2SS May 2018

    All Scouts registered in troops are eligible to participate in troop or patrol overnight campouts, camporees, and resident camps.

    Patrol Activities—A Scout patrol may participate in patrol activities. Two-deep adult leadership is required.

     

    Patrol Leaders Handbook (2010)

    Most patrol activities take place within the framework of the troop.

    However, patrols may also set out on day hikes, service projects, and overnighters independent of the troop and free of adult leadership as long as they follow two rules:

    • The Scoutmaster approves the patrol activity.

    • The patrol activity does not interfere with any troop function.

     

    So yes, the rules have changed (didn't find a 2017 Patrol Leader's Handbook on-line). 

    Now, when I was a Scoutmaster I had the boys ask to do an outing that wasn't necessarily allowed by the G2SS.   No, not rob a bank but things like laser tag or paintball.  What I told the boys was that those activities were not sanctioned by the BSA but if they wanted to plan it out and even invite me, I'd be game but I made it clearly understood to them and their parents that it wasn't a Scout activity.

    Would I do that today for an overnight activity?   Probably not.  But a few years ago, I had one patrol (older boys) do a "patrol outing" of sorts where they camped out of earshot and sight line from the remainder of the troop, we were hosting Webelos Scouts, and the boys absolutely loved it.  I made the mile walk around 9:30 PM to see if everything was kosher and then again around 7:30 AM just as a check.  It really fostered youth leadership and they talked about that outing for years as one of their favorites.

    You have to know your boys and I'm a believer that the more you put trust in them, the more they will reward you for that trust.

    I'm sure it was a liability issue for the BSA but it's sad they took the patrol option away.

     

     

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  22. On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 12:04 PM, Treflienne said:

    A tangential question from an outsider, here:

    How much does the CO influence the understanding of "morally straight" and "clean"?    How much does the CO set the tone for helping the scouts learn how to make ethical choices?

    I'm very direct so . . .

    The Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement in a troop.  The CO is in charge of selecting/approving a Scoutmaster.  So . . .

    It really is that simple. 

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