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ramanous

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Posts posted by ramanous

  1. TLC: Troop Leadership Committee - the adult committee that oversees the program consisting of the Chair, Treasurer, Secretary and various other positions. Or, the adults that sit around a table occasionally chatting about the scout program. I think when I was in scouts the TLC was the term used for the PLC now, but that was a long time ago. 

    Who sets the PLC targets? JTE and/or troop specific targets, I assume.

  2. I'm an Eagle from a troop that did practice the patrol method, so I get it but the other parents don't really understand. The involved parents see the problem, but so far I haven't been able to find a succinct, convincing way to explain why the patrol method is the solution; coupled with the fact that the SM & CC have the podium.

    The response from other parents is usually something like, "OK, but what if we did this other thing"

    I've pointed them to the aims & method; quoted Baden-Powell; tried to explain how a SPL learns to lead by being a PL. One thing I haven't gotten across is that the PL learns from practicing, especially at the outings. Maybe I need a patrol method brief... here what it is, and why it works (and other "methods" don't.)

    However, I don't think it matters even if the concerned parents demanded change. SM has dug his claws in & the CC supports him. Most of the parents aren't engaged, so I expect don't care & would probably get upset at the rabble-rousers. The primary reason we're in this troop is that my son's friends are in it. That's making in tough to leave, but I think we've got to go.

    "Patrols make a Troop" is a great line (in your other post).

     

  3. Forking off this post about parent communications

    I've read the Troop Committee Guidebook, so I know whats supposed to happen...

    In practice... what methods and level of information detail does your SM and TLC / Scouter Reserves discuss? What responsibilities does your TLC have, especially in how it affects troop plans and implementation?

    For context in our particular case, the SM tells the TLC about the status of a few upcoming events, the treasure reports financial status, and the meeting is done. Several of the active, trained parents are frustrated they are basically sidelined at the TLC meetings, while the SM complains about lack of parental involvement.

    EDIT: TL;DNR: What signs should a parent look for that the troop has healthy culture?

    I realized after I hit submit that some of you might ask if this is about the youth or the parent. And, is this a case of parents trying to run the troop (rather than the youth.) There is more going on than described above. I am trying to understand a specific matter regarding troop culture. I've further edited to be more concise

     

  4. So I think one suggestion you're making is to let the patrols self-organize naturally as much as possible?

    We actually have the opposite problem than you, which is our SM refuses to use the patrol method in favor of the SPL running the troop directly (the PLs have no responsibility.) He's been a scouter for a long time, including woodbadge, so its confounding to me (I asked him privately to explain it; that was big mistake.) I'm speculating the Key3 want the troop to be an Eagle Scout factory so they see PL, SPL, etc as just requirements for rank advancement.

  5. That's great to hear and I appreciate your observations! Can my family join your troop😉?

    Do you have any advice regarding how to explain the patrol method and its benefits to both adults and scouts?

    I've actually found a reasonably close troop that does implement the patrol method. I hate the thought of transferring my boy to a new troop but we're basically a SM lead troop as the SPLs struggle to control the scouts. Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that the SM is fine with this (politically he is not in any danger of being replaced) so I really don't think it matters what I say at this point. But, I'd appreciate your thoughts anyway.

  6. Sorry to reopen a old post, but I'm curious how your "Return to Patrol Method" is going? What lessons have your learned?

    I have found it VERY difficult to convince the scouters in our troop about the importance of the patrol method. For the scouter parents, some have recognized that we're not developing leadership within the troop but still don't get why mixing up patrols every outing is a bad idea.  And the veteran scouters, well I've been an actively involved scouter for several years now and still don't understand their "methods."

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  7. I definitely get what you're saying, including the struggle of keeping a troop from losing membership. To me, that's a double edge sword: for every kids that says it boring, there another that's looking for a proper Scouting experience. Who wins? You can't please everyone.

    Boring meetings? Are these Scout led patrols? What Scouting things does the PLC plan for these meetings? If they aren't planning meetings, then that's the primary problem. If they are, then they need be "guided" towards fun activities with positive outcomes. If your patrols and troop aren't planning meetings, then the clique in charge (Scouts or Scouters) is winging it which can result in the appearance of favoritism and alienation... hardly the outcomes we want reinforced. 

    Treat the meetings like short outings. Every outing needs some structure, preferably Scout led (meal times, activities, and that doesn't mean an outing can't have unstructured down-time.)

    Reflect on the meaning of each individual word in Scouting Program. A youth group without the scouting methods is not scouting. Program is not free time.

     

     

  8. Quote

    The problem with the methods is that they don't include what youth are really looking for.

    Well, I think it depends on how the methods are implemented which I think is the point you're making in the second part of the statement...

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    All scouts want fun with friends and older scouts want a unique challenge (high adventure, working with younger scouts, service, it depends on the scout). To make scouting work they also need to learn how to create this on their own. That's not simple. It's more than organizing a camp-out every month.

    These are the Methods of Scouting, and to reemphasize @Tron point, this is a Scouting program. If we're only concerned with getting highest rank and-or going camping or socializing, then that alone is not Scouting. There's other watered down youth programs for that

     

     

  9. Outdoor Program is one of the eight official Methods of Scouting, which are derived from the Vision & Mission of Scouting.  Other methods include Patrol, Advancement, Leadership, Uniform.

    https://troopleader.scouting.org/scoutings-aims-and-methods/

    Now, how do you get other Scouters to care about implementing all eight methods? Should they be implemented with equal weight, or based on troop priority?

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  10. Quote

    Amen. It would be sad, but I think I wouldn't want my kids in a poorly run troop even if it was the only one in town.

    Well, I don't want to give-up on Scouting. It was a great experience for me as a youth, and my boy does like it in general. I keep telling myself that there's a reason we're with the troop, and I just need to stick it out and keep trying to improve things. But, its obvious that the core Scouters have a different idea about what the Aims and Methods of Scouting should be. I'm just not sure what their idea is (I get the impression its  making sure the kids of the CO parents get Eagle.)

  11. There's certainly a multiple competing forces directing the subjective priorities of any troop.

    My impression is that emphasis on Rank Advancement above all else, from parents (many of whom are active in the CO), and from older Scouters who are trying to keep the program from folding (recruit and retain, whatever it takes.) Hence, you have Eagle Scout factories producing Eagles that can barely tie their own shoes, let alone knots and hitches.

    At the same time, we've lost families frustrated that the troop appears to emulate Lord of the Flies more than the Scouting for Boys.

    We have Eagle Scouts that can't start a fire, have no idea how to lead a patrol let alone a troop. What I hear from the older Scouters is: the boys are resistant to putting in the effort and we don't want to run them off by expecting them to meet every requirement or be trained. Just in the last 3 months, I've seen two boys get rank advancement without meeting some requirements (yes, I'm sure about that.) The SM seems to think the boys will figure it out without any training. I wish that were the case, but as some point someone has to explain it (whether the boys implement is another matter.)

    Our council is a mess, and there are hardly any troops left in our district so switching troops isn't really an option. There's an argument to be made that any troop is better than no troop. However, I'm seeing a lot of bad habits being passed along so sometime I wonder if my boy would be better off not being in Scouting (I hate that thought.)

     

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  12. The leaders are only running the program National is pushing

    Its one thing when a Scout advances quickly using thier own ambition, but pushing for 1st class in a year, and Eagle by 16 waters down the brand. The fact that there's are competing interests, and not enough "bandwidth", just means a Scout has to make tough decisions about what they think is important. Hence, why some Scoutd will earn Eagle and other won't. If all Scouts earned Eagle, then its just another particpation trophy.

     

     

     

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  13. Quote

    I purposely left out one of the Aims, "Leadership Development". How can leadership development be tool for developing character habits and goal of developing moral and ethical decision makers at the same time?

    I concur with your previous statement about the Aims & Methods. As an Aim, perhaps its better worded or "Ethical Leadership" or "Servient Leadership".  And, your idea about setting goals for the PLC is great. Now, just to convince our SM to try it.

    Above discussion wasn't exactly what I had in mind when I posted, but nonetheless all good comments related to my concerns. I'm a newer, but not new, scouter, and 80s era Eagle Scout. I've definitely been troubled by the same things mentioned in these posts....

    ... requirements being relaxed or ignored outright. SM/BOR/TLC seem to pay no mind. I know the SM/BOR are NOT to test/retest the Scout on the requirement, but they should at least question themselves about how it happens.

    ... emphasis on earning Eagle more than achieving the Aims of scouting

    ... lack of Leadership Development, Patrol methods, and more about individual achievements

    Now, I wonder if this is at least partially the result of unreasonable expectations. The idea that a scout should make First Class in a year? I question how many 11 year olds are mature enough to complete the laundry list of requirements to the letter (I've read guide to advancement, so I know to look at the wording of the requirement carefully.) Then, there are issues like First Class cooking requirement, where you have to break the patrol method in order to get enough opportunities for upcoming scouts to meet the requirement (not to mention the similar cooking & camping mb requirement)

    And Eagle Coaches? That position exists for one reason: Troop priority placed on Advancement above any other Scouting method.  

    On the other hand, there's little emphasis placed on Leadership Development. I think ILST and NYLT should be a requirement to get Eagle, along with a meaningful leadership role like Patrol Leader and probably some requirement to participating in creating a troop program. We have a couple Eagles who have NEVER been Patrol Leaders, let along served as SPL or in the PLC. And, that sets an example. Librarian, Historian, etc are not taken seriously by the scouts; they are patches to get easy "leadership" credit to meet rank requirements.

    I don't blame the scouts for this, or even think its an issue with "today's kids". Maybe its the parents that don't know or don't care that Scouting is more than just "getting an Eagle" rank. Channeling Ed Demming, is it the people or the process (program)? I mean, we really weren't that much different in the 80's then now. I had plenty of distractions, including video games, exhaust fumes and perfume. Of course, the program changed in '89 but I don't know how much that had to do with any of this. One thing that is different: we have a lot more adults involved now than then, and most of them are not parents and have no interest in scouting skills beyond frontcounty camping. I suspect most are there for the fellowship with other adults.

    From a scouter preservative, we take various standardized training. But when the Key3 vary from the standard, it makes our roles as adults confusing. I've been called out by the SM a few times for "doing things wrong" when in fact I was going by the book (which is consistent with my experience as a Scout also). I've pointed that out, and at least one instance was told "today's scouts are different", which relates to the above. Hard to volunteer in this environment where isn't clear the actual process being followed. Not following the plan (when there is one), also sets a bad example.

     

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  14. Is a program better of to stick with the BSA program (as trained), or change the program to keep youth interested?

    I realize this is a bit of an open-ended question.  A general example is that National provides training and guidance that tells us the troop should follow certain procedures. When some of the youth in the troop don't want to do those things, they will complain often to parents who then give the SM an earful. In some cases, youth quit because the troop and patrol expects them to meet certain obligations and be responsible. Recently had a parent pull the kid out of the troop because the parent didn't think their boy should be responsible for helping maintain patrol gear. SM didn't bend on this one, but in other cases has. Some of these parents are influential in the CO, so the SM is put into a difficult political situation.

    Part of me thinks that if a youth doesn't want to do scout things, then he shouldn't be in the program. Once we start modifying the program to accommodate, then the program and the scouts suffer. 

     

     

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  15. On 4/22/2022 at 8:13 PM, MattR said:

     It takes a rare leader that can create good teamwork from bad.

    All good points being made. This certainly depends on your patrol/troop culture and condition. Leadership Development is both an Aim & a Method of Scouting, and leadership skills can be learned just as any other skill. The Patrol Method provides the structure to do so, and the other methods the opportunity.

    Certainly a mature patrol can get away with less planning and delegation. Younger scouts, however, don't know where to start and look to the older scouts for guidance. The older patrols aren't providing the guidance, because they are mature/experience enough not to need the formality. This, I think, was the key failure of the Leadership Corp concept.

     

  16. Thank you. "Twiddling thumbs" was more of a catch-all phrase. In my observation, the scouts tend to congregate in the kitchen while cooking then disperse when it comes time to clean-up saying they helped cooked so someone else should do the clean-up (who tend to be younger scouts that then stop coming to outings.) A duty roster is absolutely the traditional way a patrol leader should manage this, but the duty rosters I've seen seem outdated.

    When implementing the scouting methods, certainly there is a balance between youth-led & adult-mentoring.  Its great if your older scouts are properly trained and self-directed, but when they are not an adult leader needs to be able to provide some guidance: here's a relevant duty roster, how and why you use it (or something along those lines depending on the circumstances)

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  17. Whats your patrol Duty Roster look like?

    Fireman was a coveted role back in the day, but national now tells us not to start unnecessary campfires. The standard duty roster still features fireman, waterman which now appear to unnecessary. Our boys certainly don't bother with it. That leaves cook, clean-up and a lot of twiddling thumbs. 

  18. Thank you. Like most things involving people, I think its complicated situation so its hard to put your finger on one thing. To be clear, I don't think there's anything nefarious going on.

    I was not in cubs as a youth or adult, nor was my kid, though other frustrated parents were. I once thought that was maybe were some of the issue was, to be honest (I didn't "do my time" in the den).

    I've been involved with the troop near three years, fully trained, present at the troop events. I'm aware of how a troop is supposed to be organized and run, including systems like JTE. I was also a scout, in a well-run, boy led troop. Eagle, served various leadership positions as a youth including the equivalent of NYLT. Was a MB counselor for several years after I aged out. But I wasn't involved with scouting for a couple decades, until my boy was old enough to join. I get youth led, and happily sit in the back of the room / camp site letting the scouts be scouts while sipping hot coffee.

    I thought it was just me, but a few weeks ago one of the newer (but partially trained) parents "dropped a hint" to me about "things that needed to be addressed", as if he thought I had some inside influence; I'm in the dark as much as he is. (The training maybe highlighting some issues we need to deal with.) Come to find-out, a number of the parents are feeling frustrated. We want to help, but keep getting shut down or redirected (go do this other thing, that we'll ignore.) The only thing I could advise was to come to the TLC meetings.

    I think #5 & #6 hits the mark though, but we're on the other side of the coin (or at least I am.)  I get exactly what you're saying. Our troop is rebuilding, post covid. Our troop is young and needs some guidance. "Lord of the Flies" is not my idea of scouting.

    Quote

    I spent 5 years with one troop, helping to build it up, to the point where the adults could sit back and supervise with out intervening....When my boys and I left, and I almost took 1/2 the troop with me. 

    You clearly state you helped build the troop as a parent. That tells me we're not being unreasonable in expecting to be involved. That's mainly what I wanted to know before we press the issue with the TLC.

  19. Once a parent has been through training (not just ypt), what is a reasonable way to involve these parents in the troop?

    The reason I ask is that the current "senior" Scouters in the troop seem hostile towards having parents involved in the troop regardless of their experience or training. At the same time, I hear complaints about adults not wanting to step up as volunteers (which isn't true.) Most of us have scouting experience and/or training so we are aware of scouting methods and the concept of being youth-lead.

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