SiouxRanger

22 hours ago, fred8033 said:

We can only hope. 

My comment was directed at my concern that program would not look like what it was-and negatively so.

But, I think you may be suggesting that the failed administrative aspects of Scouting will be gone. One can only hope.

Either way, my friend, it is a hideous mess.

War, and litigation, are like that, civilities and pleasantries, the grist of diplomacy, devolve into slaughter, cruelty, devastation, and death. The tempest settles and clears, and the survivors pick up the pieces, and build anew.

I've quoted Churchill before, and this quote specifically, but I will repeat it here.

How the Great Democracies

Triumphed,

and so,

Were able to Resume

the Follies

Which Had so Nearly

Cost Them Their

Life

Winston S. Churchill

The Second World War, Vol. VI

And, to put meat on the bone:

National exits bankruptcy (Triumphed), and went back to business as usual (Follies-concealing abuse claims, not reporting claims to its insurers, insurers being duped into believing that there are no claims, and thereby not raising premiums nor alerted that there should be an independent measure of effective oversight and management of claims), and resuming National's "business as usual" model which will carry National right back to today, just 30 years from now. Not having learned a whit from its near-death experience.

As one poster commented, paraphrasing, "I see nothing in the Plan that actually reorganizes National." ("Resume the follies which had so nearly cost them their life.")

Apparently, National resists any meaningful oversight of abuse claims.

And why would that be?  (Carson-Downton Abbey. "Well let's move on." Same Carson.)

NO, with National, we cannot and will not "move on."

We should NOT merely "move on."

We should Stand And Demand.

If National is unwilling to take reasonable measures to protect children, then reasonable measures should be imposed upon it.

The "Youth Protection" program is a huge step forward.  BUT if there is no independent monitoring of claims and independent evaluation of the effectiveness of the BSA Youth Protection Program, and a mechanism to suggest refinements, the fox is again in charge of the hen house.

And, frankly, the "hen house" is a bankruptcy courtroom. Nice work, if you can keep your job.

If no abuse claim reform with independent monitoring, all us are just back in the same fog National enjoyed for nearly a century.  Which brought National, and thousands of children, now adults, to a reckoning, of sorts, in Bankruptcy Court.

Just reflect on the hundreds of old newspaper photos showing a troop marching down Main Street, flags waving, scouts smiling.  And imagine that in the shadows of the crowd, if the abused scout even attended, or several them , wishing they could march with their friends and enjoy the moment but who shrunk back, compelled to contrive forced explanations to their parents on why they lost interest in scouting, though craving to "belong," and denied that experience for reasons they could not tell anyone.

Trustworthy.

54 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

Clearly, open state claimants are going to get a large portion of the pool, which I continue to believe is criminal (not in the legal sense, rather the moral). 

I can's say as I understand you.  Could you explain? Thanks.

On 2/9/2022 at 7:48 PM, Eagle1993 said:

I was at Klondike this past weekend and am extremely pessimistic about our future.  The energy I see across Troops and patrols is dying.  The number of participants down ... Flat to our Covid one.  Our Troop had 3 patrols, most had 2 or 1. Girls seem to be on the decline... only 1 full girl patrol and they are all getting old.  

I know recruiting went well vs Covid, but many Troops seem to be barely holding on.  

My Troop of 44 only had 2 scouts camp overnight.   More were signed up but had adults present drive them home for various reasons.  3 years ago we had 35 camp out. 3 years ago we had 360 scouts/scouters at Klondike... This year 220.

Kids have seemed to get used to playing with friends, having down time and enjoying the non scouting aspects of life.  

It would be one thing if it was only my Troop, but camp was empty everywhere. 

These are far more important indicators than number of online MBs earned or cub scouts recruited.  

Very concerning weekend.  I need to help fix my Troop but I am very worried about what I saw this weekend. 

 

Yeah.  Things measurable by physical count, attendees, easy.

But how does measure commitment of soul-loyalty?

It will not be anything like we are accustomed to recognize.

7 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

“Do you walk to school or carry your lunch?”

Exactly. "Lunch at school is great!"

11 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

Are we sure LC got off not contributing one additional cent? That would seem weird as TCC was adamant that they can pay more into the fund.

I figured the LC contributions would need to double. Maybe a bad bet on my part. The LC  contribution is pathetic.

1 hour ago, RobertCalifornia said:

I thought the Hartford and Century contributions would increase substantially. They are sickeningly low.

Yep.  A third to a tenth of their actual liability?  My guess as to the range of their exposure.  Save your company $3.2 billion, get a designated parking space.

2 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

Surely this objection initially raised nearly two years ago will not halt this deal.

It depends entirely on whether this objection has been subject to a hearing on the merits.  If no hearing on the merits of the objection for 2 years, it is still live.  Passage of time does not weaken legal arguments or the significance of legal truths.

If it did, our Constitution may well have been supplanted by a limited warranty from Montgomery Wards.

13 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Contributing Chartered Organization Settlement Contribution shall no longer result in the Other Chartered Organizations becoming Contributing Chartered Organizations under the Plan. The $15 million cash component of the Supplemental LC Contribution and the $25 million increase in the DST Note shall both be reallocated and become the consideration given for the extension of the preliminary injunction. The $100 million Settlement Growth Payment from the BSA and Local Councils shall facilitate the protections to certain Chartered Organizations under the Plan but shall not be reduced or credited.

This is English?

"Tom gets 6 marbles, Al, and his brother Art, if the wind is from the Northwest, on the third Tuesday of July, get 5 marbles going to the brother who has the best of three Rock-Paper-Scissors match..., otherwise, those marbles go to..."

9 minutes ago, PACAN said:

Keep us posted.

Does this possibly mean that each CO will get a bill?  Lots will leave the program.

I don't think that the financial carnage is over.

The judge may end up having to choose which organization the judge leaves hanging-BSA or Catholic Church, or...???

I also suspect that even if the LC's get a third party discharge, if any major defendant is left facing state court suits, the LC's and BSA, though no longer liable for damages due to discharge, will still have to respond to subpoenas in state court cases as occurrence witnesses, endure discovery, etc.  All the while incurring defense costs. "Death by a thousand cuts." I think that BSA and the LC's only avoid the role of witnesses if all the major potential defendant groups are discharged.

I also wonder if the LC contributions are going to be increased.  Per the TCC council analyses, though some councils are barely hanging on as it is (and likely facing death by merger) others are flush.

It will be interesting to learn who blinked first.

Just some thoughts and questions. No answers here, sadly.

Having 3 sons and having attended at least half their summer camps for the full week, and the rest for half a week, and 4 Philmont treks, Scouting is not inexpensive. It is a very expensive program and requiring a huge weekly time commitment certainly if one gets drawn into District or Council level work.

I grew up in the program having an older brother who earned Eagle and went on a Philmont trek.  Scouting was all I wanted to be involved in, and wanted my sons to participate in, and I participated with them-virtually every campout but 2 or 3.

I did not watch them from the stands for an hour as a spectator, I sat on a stump in the rain and shared their experiences and taught them how to cope as a participant and mentor.

It was clear that the time allotted to me, as a parent, to "pour myself into them" was limited and that the best place to do that was by involving them in Scouting and by me participating fully in their activities.  And I did. Not hovering, but there, mostly at a distance, but there were many "Teachable Moments" which I used.  Perhaps annoyingly so, but not burdensomely so.

One Eagle Scout in his speech at his Eagle Court of Honor mentioned that "Mr. SiouxRanger would always talk to us about history, scout skills, nature-birds, plants, and knots...during our rides to campouts, and such, and how it was tiring.

Well, perhaps.

Let the record reflect that that Eagle Scout got to about 7 months before 18 showing no interest in attaining Eagle, and was missing a number of merit badges not having made progress for half a year. At one troop meeting he announced that he wanted to earn Eagle. "Well, you need to call me and make an appointment and we will work through the merit badges, but I am not calling you to push or cajole. And he did call, and he worked diligently and he earned his Eagle. Every Sunday for months we worked for 3 or 4 hours. A scout of a single parent family of mixed race.  No one was in his corner but me.

I don't regret a cent of cost or a minute not spent anywhere else where I would not be with my sons and mentoring them and their friends.

Isn't this what Scouting is about?

On 1/3/2022 at 10:57 PM, Eagle1993 said:

our Troop does not charge adult leaders to attend summer camp.

I have always paid full price for my attendance at summer camp not being interested in scouts and their families paying my way.  And I am self-employed, and the sole income producer in my business, and it costs me not only the camp fee, but also all my office overhead, and loss of all billable time for a week. About $5,000 a week.

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

TCC was granted an extension until Feb 9th.

Ah ha!

That explains a lot.

I cannot imagine any attorney, at any time, under any conditions, recommending that a client not file an objection by the due date unless the "deal is inked."

For if the perceived deal falls through, the time to object has passed and client has lost its right to object.

I can not imagine that any attorney in this particular case would consider the "deal inked" unless it is the Judge's ink on an Order confirming the Plan, or whatever Plan comes out of mediation.

I would expect the TCC to file an objection simply to preserve its ability to object if things fall through. The TCC can always withdraw its objection if things work out to its satisfaction.

3 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

the upcoming plan details

The Plan as put to a vote, or as changed so far to date, or are additional Plan changes anticipated?

And why no objection by the TCC? Also relying on a prior objection, or does this signal an agreement of some sort?

On 2/4/2022 at 8:53 PM, Muttsy said:

Handwriting on the wall.

And the meaning is?

2 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

Since the local councils are independent,

Councils appear to be independently, state-chartered not for profit corporations.

I do not believe that they operate totally independently from National.  I believe that National dictates major decisions to the Scout Executives and they advise the council president and executive committee of the executive board, and the Council moves in lock-step with National.

Apparently, ALL of the local councils agreed to pay the settlement contribution determined by National.

Maybe there were battles behind the scene, but 100% agreement?  In an organization with so many moving parts?

1 hour ago, gpurlee said:

And this will also change the nature of councils as we shift from locally controlled, Scouter dominated boards to regional boards comprised of a greater number of large donors and prominent corporate leaders.

My small council is already large donor, prominent corporate leader controlled.  And they have not a clue.

One cannot appreciate the importance of tradition unless one is part of that tradition.

Are Council financial statements prepared in compliance with GAAP?

Anybody seen council financial statements prepared in compliance with GAAP?

I have not. 

On 1/26/2022 at 10:46 AM, 1980Scouter said:

I wonder if they would not ask LC's to contribute funds to keep BSA operating.  If National goes away, LC's are in a difficult situation. 

If they need another year to get through this, have LC's kick in just enough to keep them going. LC's (most) have the money.

Well, the local councils are in a horrible situation, just now with National STILL HERE, so if National goes away...?

And National DECREES to local councils, does not "ask."

On 1/26/2022 at 8:59 AM, Eagle1993 said:

One point that keeps coming up in the bankruptcy is BSA's financial situation.  BSA lawyers have recently stated they may need to start selling assets (oil leases, art work, etc.) to keep going.  These threats have been made from time to time.

So, you challenge someone in an adult beverage facility to "Step out into the alley," and get the worst of it.

Mulligans are for golf courses, not alleys.

Bankruptcies are alleys.

On 1/26/2022 at 10:52 AM, T2Eagle said:

We may differ about what PR problem BSA had

I do not understand your comment.  BSA has no PR problem over child sexual abuse? Or something else?

BSA filed a bankruptcy over child sexual abuse cases. That is a PR problem to me of monumental significance.

On 1/26/2022 at 10:52 AM, T2Eagle said:

In the years leading up to the change in SOL laws that led to the bankruptcy, Youth Protection wasn't really the image problem BSA had.  The three "G"s: God, Gays, and Girls, were the issues scouting was getting hammered on in public opinion.

And that is likely true, but does not take into account that BSA actively accumulated and sequestered all documents pertaining to alleged child sexual abuse.

So, that the 3 G's were public issues, it is clear that BSA worked actively to conceal the biggest, existential threat to BSA; child sexual abuse.

Had BSA not concealed the child sexual abuse claims, it would have likely been THE TOPIC OF DISCUSSION and the 3 G's would have faded into the mists.

On 1/26/2022 at 11:34 AM, MattR said:

(BTW, there will be no banishing of forum members.)

I checked-National Supply does not offer Scarlet Letters.  Not uniform approved.

On 1/26/2022 at 8:59 AM, Eagle1993 said:

BSA lawyers have recently stated they may need to start selling assets (oil leases, art work, etc.) to keep going. 

Nobody  cares.  Sell.

On 1/26/2022 at 8:59 AM, Eagle1993 said:

These threats have been made from time to time.

They ARE threats.

I do not know anyone who responds with sympathy to threats.  Threats raise hackles.

BSA National, before filing bankruptcy, had the absolute BEST data on the number of abuse cases alleged against unit leaders, scout youth, local councils, chartering organizations, and so on.  And all the details thereof-National insisted that all council files on abuse cases were sent to National.  And BSA National, in light of, or in reliance on, that knowledge, filed a Chapter 11 reorganization in bankruptcy.  BSA National lit the fuse on the bankruptcy rocket.

On 1/26/2022 at 10:46 AM, 1980Scouter said:

I wonder if they would not ask LC's to contribute funds to keep BSA operating.

"They" being National?  Well, my understanding is that National does not "ask" Scout Executives.  National "directs." Probably subtly, but if a Scout Executive does not follow National's "company line" that Scout Executive does not get promoted-his/her career stagnates or crashes.

Consider, that 238 councils, more or less, all fell in line to contribute to the Settlement Trust the amount that National set as the local councils' contributions. And why was that so?

"Local Councils are independent corporations," says National.  Who believes that?  If local councils are truly "volunteer run" and independent, in order to obtain a 100% council compliance with National's Settlement Trust contribution "request," a majority of the board members on each and every council board would have to vote to approve the "contribution."

I do not know the specifics, but I know the process and can make reasonable assumptions and inferences from the limited information available.

So, what likely happened, is that the Scout Executive advised the Council President that National had set their council's contribution and the Executive Committee (a subset of the Executive Board-much smaller) approved the contribution amount.  The full Council Board, many there for resume building, just went along, or perhaps were only told after the event. Or never told.

National abhors nothing more that its lack of control.

Like the lead bird in a flock of starlings, when National turns, the whole flock turns in unison. 

10 hours ago, Muttsy said:

Moderator, why do you allow this BSA troll self-named skeptic to continue here. He should be banished. He exists here only to suppress open honest expression. You are allowing him to destroy this forum. Last post from me if he remains. 

I don't quite know if this fits in here, an important lesson to me back then, so, nevertheless..

During a very stressful scouting time, we had a committee and during meetings, a scouter I considered very astute, upon hearing a comment (likely that he did not agree with) would say:

"Could you say that again?  I'd like to understand you."

A gentle way to suggest a moderation or even an intensification of the speaker's view. Or, at least to elicit specifics with which to take issue.

With respect to your post, quoting the post you take issue with would be helpful to those of us who don't follow day-to-day.

I'd really like to understand your post.

8 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Dang it! TK colors outside the lines, so that may be tough to curtail. (Anyone else grow up calling them Jarts?)

Yes, Jarts. Loved them.  I'd play my dad just about every time I stopped out to his house. Every week or two. He had phenomenal eye-hand coordination.  Phenomenal. The typical score was 21-4 or 21-6. I am an accomplished percussionist-I am not uncoordinated. I can play my drum set in complete darkness and hit every note on any part of my drum set that I want.  Dad whooped me every time.