sunshinescout

Thank you very much everyone for your guidance and perspective.

I thought I'd add that my scoutmaster is actually on the Eagle Board of Reviews and project reviews for the district, so I'm hesitant to bring up concerns about the district scouters to him.  I did mention their requirement for fundraising and the contradiction in the GTA, and his advice to me was to save time in getting the project approved and just do a fundraiser.  I think he might either agree with the district or not want to contradict them to a scout, which I can respect.  I ended up (very respectfully and matter of factly) expressly stating to project reviewers that I wasn't going to do a fundraiser.  Some were unhappy, but one ended up approving it.

On 1/4/2021 at 2:13 PM, CynicalScouter said:

OK, there's a ton of issues to go over here, but I want to cut/carve out one.

If there fundraising is not needed, where's the money going? To the units?

We can quibble about whether or not a EBOR is behaving or ignoring GTA, but if there's money involved and being misused, that's a whole other world.

@CynicalScouter I (and my family) ended up paying the nominal costs of the project.  I think everything should be in order.

On 1/4/2021 at 2:00 PM, Owls_are_cool said:

Did you start on your service project before it was approved by the district? Has it been approved by the district? 

@Owls_are_cool I'm sorry I was vague about that.  I filled out the project proposal in the workbook, it was approved by the district, and only then did I start work.

On 1/4/2021 at 2:13 PM, qwazse said:

@Owls_are_cool, the way I read it was that the scouts' proposal was reviewed by the district and got a "good enough."  The scout is now concerned that those dissenting opinions might bleed through however many months from now when he has his BoR.

It's actually a pretty decent life-lesson. You could convert a run-down bowling alley into the Sistine chapel, and someone's not gonna like it. How do you muscle through that opposition when you are up for an award and the opposition is sitting on the board? It's tough to say, "Respectfully, Sir, I got approval from your district on the exact spacing between God's finger and Adam's." You might want to consult your allies before the meeting.

Definitely, I think I will have to have a conversation with the beneficiary and scoutmaster to make sure they are very happy with the project.  I've also done so continually over the past couple of months, and they've said they don't have any concerns.

On 1/4/2021 at 3:45 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

@sunshinescout

You said you were very close to completing your project...

1.  Take all of your concerns to your Scoutmaster and Eagle Project Coach (if you have one.)  They are closest to the fray, and may have dealt with these situations before.

2.  You must use the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook.  If you did, you should have also gotten your proposal approved by your unit, the beneficiary, and some district/council representative.  If you don't have this signature page, then you have a problem.  See #1.

3.  When your project is complete, as long as you did not deviate substantially from your proposal, you will be fine, even if you have to go through some appeals process.  As long as your unit leader and the beneficiary sign the project completion page, you will be fine.  The National office (if it has to go there, which I doubt) always sides with the Scout.  You will notice, there is no Council or District signature line on the Project Approval page  (Project Report Page C)

4.  Fundraising is never required.  If you wanted to pay for Eagle Project entirely out of your own pocket, that is just fine.

As to the leadership question, the requirement says you must "...plan, develop, and give leadership to others..."  It doesn't say anything about fundraising, and it doesn't say anything about how many others, or what their ages must be.  This is where your unit leader comes in, and why they must sign your project approval, stating  "In my opinion, this Eagle Scout service project meets Eagle Scout requirement 5, as stated on page 4 of this workbook."  Hopefully, enough other people (Scouts?) were involved that this will not be an issue.  Again, talk to your Scoutmaster.

I will tell you, as I always tell leaders and parents, "It's not about the project.  It's about the Scout."  If you planned the project, developed it, and led others to complete it, you are fine.  If someone else did any of those for you, then you did not complete your project.  Your Scoutmaster is your adult advocate if any questions do arise. 

Finally, take this advice, "Don't fight dragons that aren't there."  If your proposal is approved, and you work that proposal while leading others, you will be fine, even if someone at District or Council doesn't "like" it.  Work your proposal as approved, and all is well.

Congrats!!
 

@InquisitiveScouter Thank you!  I did get the proposal from the workbook approved and the signature page complete.  I've taken great care to stick to the proposal, and I've engaged younger scouts as my scoutmaster asked, and several older scouts (total about 6 scouts).  My scoutmaster seems happy with this.

I find it reassuring that National is there to help scouts.  I'm just very nervous that despite following my approved proposal, the requirements, Guide to Advancement, and my scoutmaster and beneficiary's requests I still might be denied, but I think I've been reassured that it will be okay.

On 1/4/2021 at 10:03 PM, fred8033 said:

Yep.  It happens.  I cringe every time added hoosp are explained as life lessons or helping them with a future objective.  If a scout comes asking for a proposal approval, scouters should be friendly, courteous, kind and supportive.  A pet pieve is when scouts are forced to face a Eagle project proposal BOR.  It's supposed to be a friendly discussion.  Proposal reviews are NOT a BOR that helps scouts prepare for their EBOR.  

 

Exactly.  Let your SM be  your advocate.  It's not your place to correct misdirected adults.  But if you can, congrats.  It's a valuable skill.  On the other hand, imbalances of power are best left to your SM.

 

They must.  But you will have to appeal up to get tings corrected.

@fred8033 I've only ever had success correcting (or more so getting around) adults by being very respectful and kind and appealing to their superior.  I've met many adults that don't seem to want to follow the rules or be fair, so it's a skill I'd like to develop.  I definitely don't want any dispute with the district, so I think I will just suck it up, hope for the best, and keep an appeal in my back pocket.  Some of the scouters were quite degrading toward my project proposal (making it seem like I was lazy and incompetent about my project), and I think they might have the same take when it comes time for a Board of Review.

I'm a Life Scout working on my Eagle project.  I wanted to get the advice of some experienced Scouters here.

In my council, Eagle BORs and project reviews are done by the district.  In my experience, both personally and talking to other scouts, the district Scouters do not faithfully follow the requirements or the Guide to Advancement.  For example, some of them require fundraising for projects that don't need it (GTA 9.0.2.10 Fundraising Issues says otherwise), routinely reject project proposals that are mostly sound, call scouts back for multiple meetings, and ask for additional information outside of what the project workbook asks (GTA 9.0.2.7 says an effort should be made to have just one meeting and GTA 9.0.21 says "we will not require proposals to include more than described in the" workbook), among other inconsistencies.  Some of the district Scouters also weren't very "helpful, friendly, courteous, kind" to me, or other scouts, by being overly critical and asking overly pointed questions, despite us doing our best to remain respectful.

Several district representatives I spoke with at one of my project reviews didn't like my project (it's a little out of the box, but I've been assured by others that it is a fine project).  My scoutmaster and beneficiary are pleased with the progress being made on the project and have assured me that I am on track to meet their expectations.  I really like my scoutmaster and adults in my troop and have worked very well coordinating with my beneficiary., who's been very helpful.  I'm very close to completing the project.  

However I'm worried that when it comes time for my Eagle board of review they will ask for me to redo the project or make changes, which again isn't consistent with the Guide to Advancement.  (GTA 9.0.2.13 Evaluating the Project After Completion says that

Quote

"At the board of review, if an approved proposal and any subsequent effort represents planning and development that was adequate to the project, and the project was well led and carried out to the satisfaction of the unit leader and project beneficiary, only in a very rare case would rejection result. It would have to be clearly established that Eagle Scout requirement 5—as written— was not completed."

but I've been told that scouts have been sent back to do work to meet some of the district Scouters' arbitrary and varying definitions of "leadership.")

Do you have any advice for me?  Is my district typical of what you've seen in your experience?

Can you provide any insight into appealing to council/national?  Are they good at applying the Guide to Advancement and the requirement as written?

I feel really badly that I have to worry about this as a Scout, and the randomness/arbitrary nature of my district's standards for Eagles seems unfair.  It's added a lot of stress to my Eagle project, which I feel should be an enjoyable milestone of my scouting experience.