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Posts posted by ThenNow

  1. 2 minutes ago, yknot said:

    For most who are pointing towards a better college, it's an "And?" credential. Meaning, "So, you're 4.0 and you're a National Merit Scholar and you're an elite athlete and you're president of XYZ and you've gotten 5s on al your AP exams and you volunteer for Unified and you're an Eagle Scout...  and?"  

    ...and you might need a lifetime of therapy after all that high achievement and pressure. 

    • Haha 1
  2. 50 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

    For those in the non revival states it's a lot more complicated.  There are several hundred claims attributable to my council (I forget the exact number), but my understanding is none of them are current, and for what may be within the current SOL we're insured and have reserves.  So any contribution we make is for the purposes of a) hedging against a future change in the law, b) a desire to do the right thing for folks who were injured, and c) a contribution to the well being of scouting nationwide because we believe scouting should be available to all American youth not just parochially.

    I appreciate the commitment to be part of compensating  survivors through a global solution. As I've droned on about, I was surprised at the fractured position and voice from the Councils and BSA. Parochial is the perfect word. I know I was naive, but as a Scout I thought it was all for one, one for all. Top to bottom. Side to side. In retrospect, I mixed us up with the Mousekateers, I suppose. 

  3. 1 minute ago, HICO_Eagle said:

    My point is that the value of the Eagle brand has -- in my experience -- diminished with elite universities and corporations.

    Just for gee whiz, I was selecting between two schools of note. One highly valued Eagle. The other, even decades ago, quite the opposite. I had to steer around it with the second one. First was a private school, the second a state school. 

    • Upvote 1
  4. 21 minutes ago, elitts said:

    Regardless of whether or not they thought they were going to be included in the lawsuits, it should have been a heads up to get their ducks in a row. 

    From my knowledge of Scouting back when and up to today, I'm also baffled by the lack of strategic organizational, financial and risk management planning. With the number or high-level attorneys and professionals associated with the organization, what were they thinking? Also, what were they doing? This goes to YPT, too. (DavidCO - please don't get your waterboard.) This is personal and corporate tax, estate and legacy planning 101. Maybe 201. Put stuff in trust. Create holding companies. Install distance and buffer entities. Protect and sequester assets. Don't commingle. It sounds complicated, but it's not so much so that an organization like the BSA couldn't have a poop sheet to tell LCs how to do what...years ago. Just sayin'. They brought this on themselves with denial and a good deal of arrogance, imho. That relates to the asset scramble and the abuse cases. Fast and loose.

    • Upvote 1
  5. 7 minutes ago, David CO said:

    Not entirely.  It is relevant to the extent that some people feel that the "eagle brand" might have some marketable value that could be calculated in the settlement.  I disagree.  Separated from scouting, the eagle rank isn't worth a plug nickel.

    The eagle is already used as a symbol or logo for many businesses and clubs.  I can't imagine that anyone would pay to use it when they can already use it for free.

    Say what? Is that for me? (I won't say anything about pithy retorts or raisin torts or animated shorts or full-bodied ports.)

  6. 8 minutes ago, HICO_Eagle said:

    I felt like National was diminishing the program for many years.

    This is off topic, but perhaps someone would give me a brief recap. I received my Eagle in 1975. It was not easy and there weren't many of us, or so it seemed. In the past 15+ (?) years has there been an escalation of "win the prize" orientation, driven by Units and parents? I had no particular push or encouragement from my parents, though our SM was keen to have his "first Eagle." As I said back there somewhere, it seems like it's become part of the, "Thou shalt build the college resume at all cost!" culture to me. I both understand and marginally despise it.

    • Upvote 4
  7. 44 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

    So, if LCs started to protect assets in 2018 they knew they were going to be included in the lawsuits.  In a full 180 contradiction to the line we have all been told that they are totally separate and 100% have no danger of being part of the bankruptcy?  That would look pretty sketchy.  

    Precisely why the judge told them they can't do it and that she would look back to see if they had. I don't recall the detail or timeframe on the second component. I seem to recall something to that effect during the August 2020 to January 2021 scuttlebutt over the Tennessee shake-n-bake activities. This was the filing initiated it, as far as I know. Some stipulation was reached back in January.


    Here is the Stipulation. 

    WHEREAS, on July 30, 2020, the BSA sent an update to the Responsive Letter describing the initial results of its ongoing investigation of the Properties Trust based on its discussions with counsel for MTC regarding the Properties Trust.

    Among other things, BSA advised the Tort Claimants’ Committee that “MTC does not take the position that any contingent interest of BSA in MTC’s property was extinguished by the transfer of property to the Properties Trust.” WHEREAS, on August 7, 2020, the Tort Claimants’ Committee filed the Stay Enforcement Motion, which seeks entry of an order enforcing the automatic stay against MTC and voiding MTC’s transfers to the Properties Trust.

    WHEREAS, the Creditors’ Committee identified additional concerns beyond those specifically addressed in the Stay Enforcement Motion with respect to the transfers to the Properties Trust, the manner in which it was formed, and the execution of the Qualified Affidavit.

    WHEREAS, MTC asserts that the creation of the Properties Trust and transfer of assets thereto and the statements in the Qualified Affidavit were proper and in compliance with applicable law, and the Creditors’ Committee and the Tort Claimants’ Committee each disagree with this assertion.

    WHEREAS, in connection with certain mediated discussions between the Tort Claimants’ Committee and MTC regarding the Stay Enforcement Motion, MTC appointed the Honorable John Bryant as Trust Protector and, on November 2, 2020, the Trust Protector executed that certain Amendment to the Properties Trust (the “Amendment”), which includes, among other things, an amendment to include the following in the Properties Trust:

    To the extent that BSA National has an interest in the assets of the Properties Trust by way of the Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws referenced in paragraph F of Article II of the Trust Agreement or BSA National’s articles, bylaws and regulations, MTC and the Trust Protector, on behalf of the Properties Trust, agree that any such interest was not extinguished or otherwise impacted by the transfer of assets by MTC to the Properties Trust.”

                                        * * *

    To the extent that BSA National has an interest in the assets of the Properties Trust, the Properties Trust shall not been amended in a way that alters and impairs such interest. Amendment ¶¶ 1(a), (d).

    A copy of the Agreement as amended subsequently has been recorded with the Register of Deeds in the five Tennessee counties in which the four camps and MTC’s offices are located. The Agreement, as amended by the Amendment, and as recorded, is attached hereto as Exhibit A.


  8. 18 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

    I think it's still better for everyone, especially the majority of claimants if some universal settlement is achieved.  If settlement talks collapse, that really shuts out claimants from any state other than the current states with revival or extended SOL periods, which I believe is somewhere between six and twelves states depending on how you count things.

    I don't disagree at all. The process so far has been hopeful in moments and more often terrible, at least for me.

    19 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

    I'm dismayed by the time and especially money that's been spent without some agreement on basic facts, like how much of national's assets are restricted vs. non restricted, but I think that too many claimants may end up shut out of any compensation if a settlement isn't reached.

    Also, agree. I guess National is beyond any reach of accountability, but it's mind numbing to watch them spend money and spin the wheels on the bus. Fee requests (volume and dollar signs) from their experts and professionals far exceed those from the claimants'. I assumed the judge was chastising both parties when she gasped at the $100M nut, but it would've been more accurately directed at the BSA. They didn't expect all these claims, true, but they sure could've had their ducks in a row on assets and representation of the LCs. My take, anyway.

    The TCC has a very difficult task. A group of 85,000ish child sexual abuse survivors is technically and psychologically daunting. From all I've heard and read, I'm confident they are trying to move the ball and have been since the outset. Everyone I've spoken to since March of last year says there's no way LCs are getting a release without contributing. I am daily flabbergasted to hear you guys say you were and are told the opposite. Doesn't sound like the BSA is dealing in either good faith or reality.


  9. 36 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

    Most councils could face 10s if not hundreds of cases.  I doubt they can handle the legal fees let alone 1 or 2 losses of this magnitude.  

    From the claims data analysis done by the TCC, and CynicalScouter's rundown of the LCs, all have claims against them. 

  10. 3 minutes ago, elitts said:

    Between having to file and litigate the case in the state/district the abuse took place in and it being easier to actually argue against vague/unreliable allegations from decades ago with a smaller number of cases; I think most of the cases wouldn't stand a chance in actual litigation.

    I can't speak to all of your thoughts as well as others certainly can. I do think you may well underestimate the reliability, clarity, corroboration, witness availability and strength inherent in a sufficient number of valid claims to crash the bus. It seems underestimation is somewhat epidemic. (Refer to he responses to the now infamous "chart.") All I can say is, give me a shot in court along with one or two of the other guys victimized by our abuser, and we'll see what's what. Won't be pretty. Team me up with all of them, by the looks of it in the 6-10 range, and it's SHOW TIME. The negligence and reckless endangerment threads are not as thin as you believe, imho. Again, I know my case well. Not so much the other 83,836.

  11. 4 hours ago, fred8033 said:

    I just don't feel this should be an end for BSA.  Perhaps, it is right BSA transforms into a family oriented program.  Teaching values in an outdoor setting with family members often there with their scouts.  Whole families now are disconnected and not comfortable in the outdoors.  I could see this being a good thing.

    I've had a heightened awareness of all things BSA this past year. I try to note and log whatever I hear or read. I've found, purely anecdotally, that many of the most engaged and enthusiastic Scouting advocates are such families. One or both parents are involved with one or more of their children in their Scouting life. Often, all the kids are on a Scouting track. The LDS families I've known had this approach - it was "family" Scouting.

  12. 1 hour ago, David CO said:

    While I do enjoy an occasional pithy retort, it is not required.  We can just have a conversation.  You asked a question and I answered it truthfully.  

    Duly noted. 

  13. 42 minutes ago, SilverPalm said:

    Isn't $102B something like twenty or twenty-five times the entire valuation of the BSA, National and Local Councils included? 

    Don't forget the insurance assets of the BSA and LCs, the Chartering Organizations and the insurance assets of the COs. There are multiple buckets, not just the aggregate assets of the BSA and LCs.

    • Thanks 1
  14. 16 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

    When I try to talk about the lawsuit with other leaders, everyone pretty much knows BSA filed bankruptcy as a result of sex abuse claims.  Sometimes they reply with a "oh yeah, I remember that happening".  Sometimes they reply with yeah, but most of those claims are a really long time ago and probably were probably just making it up.  Had one just the other day say it doesnt matter, people dont wait years to tell someone.  That is just leaders.

    The general public, I am kinda talking parents of current and prospective Scouts may not even know there is any sort of legal "thingy" currently going on.

    I am in the midst of a very elementary national survey to see what people know about the case, their thoughts, on it, whether they think the BSA should continue, if their kids are allowed to be in activities with other adults while they are not with them and several other things. I will report, if anyone would like to know the results. To your point, I was pretty surprised how many people said things like, "I know little or nothing...some leaders took advantage of some boys years ago...they had to file bankruptcy because the LDS church left" and etc. Also, 65% or so know someone who was sexually abused as a child. Not surprised, but notable.


    51 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

    No one is taking what is happening seriously.  Either brushing it off as no big deal or if they believe it will end and everything will just continue as normal.

    This is why I posted the chart and why I have been baffled at the ho-hum approach being taken by the LCs and COs, not to mention the BSA. They and the Ad Hoc Committee (I assume) had the data for months via a settlement demand from the TCC. I guess they weren't in a sharing mood. "Hello? Anyone serious about this?" [insert head shake and befuddled look]

  15. 25 minutes ago, David CO said:

    I was convinced that the idiots at national invented all this nonsense just to give them a ready excuse to target good scouters.  

    I also felt that it was mostly driven by spineless ninnies who simply did not understand the realities of working with boys in a scouting environment.

    Well, okay then, as they say in the northern midwest. I have no pithy retort to either of those sentences.

  16. 1 hour ago, 5thGenTexan said:

    f that chart of offenses goes public, I know its public record but not widely known in the mainstream media, the BSA will be toast in the court of public opinion. 

    Again, this is me throwing question darts at a board in the dark. I ask out of ignorance and not grinding anyone's nose in something.

    Was it truly the assumption that these were minor "offenses" and random, though malicious acts of "touching," and etc.? I am taken aback by the reaction to the data, since we've been talking about sexual abuse. Plus, I have been blathering on about my experience. Did most assume my claim is isolated and/or anomalous?  

  17. 4 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

    that Local Councils are independent business entities (as BSA states) and remove them (and their assets) entirely from the BSA bankruptcy case. The bankruptcy case simplifies (?) to Debtor, insurers, and creditors (of which victims who choose? are part).

    This is certain liquidation for open state LCs, since none of the Councils will be released from liability if they don't participate. They are non-parties to the case and only get protection if they "voluntarily" contribute to the Trust. This appears to be the approach the TCC is taking, as I understand it.

    Is your thought to preserve LCs not subject to immediate or highly likely near-terms lawsuits, based on the status of state SoLs? As we've discussed, though not all have look-back windows, many have pending legislation that could very well lead to one. I'm just trying to understand the anticipated outcome of the $.01 suggestions.

  18. 12 hours ago, yknot said:

    what I am taking from all this is that the effort of trying supervise unrelated adults taking unrelated children into the unsupervised out of doors may not, on balance, be a good idea. It just may be beyond the capabilities of the human animal. 

    It may be true. Based on what some of you report, I’m not sure. Many seem to be far removed from abuse or negative experiences. I suppose the issue really is can safety be replicated and, more so, ensured. If it can’t be reliably replicated, that’s quite an indictment on the human animals. No surprise. Sounds like Scouting’s philosophical and practical death knell, if the opinion is widely held among the ranks. Time to fold up the tents and liquidate, then? 

    (Btw, having the “best lawyers” is ultimately meaningless when the Supreme Judge is on the other team.)

  19. 18 minutes ago, David CO said:

    I disagree.  YPT is stupid.  It has little to do with that chart.  

    The part of the recent filings I found most interesting was the paragraph about BSA not revising YPT.  Thousands of kids have been molested since YPT was implemented.  Spot on!  

    But YPT is a different topic.

    I’ve read this three times. I make no sense of it other than to conclude it’s a puzzle of contradictions. 

    • Confused 1
  20. 1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

    Legally aren't these numbers criminal allegations? How many were criminal convictions?

    I’m not sure what you’re looking for here, but yes. State statutes define criminality and level of offense associated with each act, depending on age, force, injury, and, etc. All categories represent criminal acts, statutes depending. In the old days and maybe today, the last category might goes to “contributing to the delinquency of a minor” up to child pornography. 

    Have any been prosecuted? No clue. In my case and many others, the criminal SoL had run by the time I was ready to act. Some of the claims could be prosecuted under newly revised SoL in certain states, if the survivor chooses and prosecutors are willing. As CynicalSouter has said, it’s a tough row to hoe in a criminal case after so much time has elapsed. “Beyond a reasonable doubt” is a high bar of proof/evidence to get a guilty verdict.

    Again, I can refer you to CHILDUSA and their work for details on SoL reform.

  21. 1 hour ago, David CO said:

    These scouters are not being targeted for helping boys apply suntan lotion or boosting kids out of the pool.  These are egregious offenses.  I think we should know that.

    One of the reasons I posted what I did goes to this very point and, by implication, YPT. The data and reality represented is what lies on the other side of whatever effort you put into “firewalling” predators. Failure to enforce or allowing 67% completion of training leads to that chart. It’s dark, stark and ugly. It’s also very real. We survivors have felt it was not being seen for what it truly is. Now it’s unavoidable. Few things are more affirming that to be believed in the face of widespread doubt and aspersions. 

  22. 57 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

    We, the members of scouter.com, include scouts as well as scouters.

    I did not know about the dual membership. I assumed Scouters from “Scouter.com.” The very LAST thing I would ever want to do is cause anyone trauma over this. God forbid. I am very sorry if it occurred in any way.

  23. 1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

    @ThenNow, I deliberately did not post the explicit abuse categories from the Court document on this scout forum.

    Understand and it’s your call. I had no way whatsoever to know your thoughts or predilections. Apologies, nonetheless.

    And, yes, it is explicit. And, yes, I believe not staring it straight in the eye is part of the problem. And, yes, that little chart represents a huge part of my Scouting life. Monetized and sterilized words on a page.

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