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Posts posted by ThenNow

  1. 16 minutes ago, David CO said:

      Feel free to bloviate.

    I just sent that to my family and told them they have to make their selection now. My baby sister wants to see the daily special or hazard the chef’s choice. 

  2. 1 hour ago, David CO said:

    I still believe in sins of omission.

    Sure, but not ignorance without malice or negligence.

    Hm. I believe there’s a “choose one” menu. It includes a loop of the most sleep-inducing homily you EVER heard complete with a poke in the ribs every time you start to nod, a never ending stint in the closet with the incense censer going full blast, serving 6:15 mass in continual successive rotation or replaying the time you spoke way to loud in the confessional only to discover your classmates overheard every sin you confessed that week. Okay. I’ll stop, but you started it...

    • Haha 1
  3. 12 minutes ago, David CO said:

    When I meet my final accounting, I hope that I don't learn that any of my actions and decisions, or inactions and indecisions, contributed, directly or indirectly, to any instance of child sexual abuse.  

    Oh, gosh. I hope the book doesn't contain all prospects for unintended omissions and/or commissions. If I get there, the unfortunate soul behind me better have fetched along a book, some whittling, lunch and coffee. At least. Maybe a sleeping bag. 

    • Haha 2
  4. 19 minutes ago, David CO said:

    I am not going to quote anyone specifically, since many people have commented about how the lawsuits are unfair to current and future scouts. It is unfair, but no more unfair than the national debt.  They are going to inherit that too.  They will also inherit all of the nation's infrastructure.

    It is important to remember that our kids didn't build any of these camps.  They inherited the camps.  Past generations built them and paid for them.  The generations that built these camps are the same generations that allowed the child sexual abuse.  They are paying for it.

    After the bankruptcy, current and future scouts will be starting anew with a clean slate.  It will now be up to them to build their own futures.  I wish them luck.

    I am sorry that this is the case and I agree. It's terrible, but my wife and sons also paid dearly for destructive things they did not do, deserve or play any part in unleashing. Perhaps even worse than if I caused it, the debt was created by injustices done to me. Nonetheless, they inherited it. Awful on all counts. 

  5. 17 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

    My point is that even the 9 TCC victims care, of  50% of the victims care or 60% of the victims care, it only takes 33% of abuse victims to say "no" and BSA's dead.

    I understand and appreciate that, and don't care to meddle in the projections of how what happens when and by what vote. I'm no good at it. I am merely pointing out, which I know some don't or won't believe, that this is not a "battle" these men entered into with bloodthirsty glee. I realize you are talking about the practical application, as you absolutely should. How someone feels or doesn't is irrelevant to that equation, but the TCC is people, not the Death Star. It's okay to portray them as such, but I've chimed in with my two denarii.  

  6. 26 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

    We totally agree that they don't care, that is not what I am arguing. 

    I'll let you guys have at it with the details and the numbers, but this is patently untrue. You simply can't say that. You can say that it, "appears from this or that statement they have no regard for the future health or vitality of Scouting," but you do not know if they/we care. As I've said before, when I went to Delaware one year ago to stand for the TCC, I made it clear to the US Trustee's Office I do not want to see Scouting eviscerated. He surprised me by saying the sentiment is shared by most applicants.

    The TCC was formed well before 95,000 claims flooded in. Please remember that. Everyone has needed to pivot. Hard. The BSA hasn't pivoted, imho. Also, you're talking about 9 men, not an entity. 9 sexual abuse survivors with valid, vetted claims of sexual abuse against the BSA. I don't know any human who knows another man's heart, much less that of 9 at one time...

  7. 7 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

    that leaves more than is on the table by liquidating the LCs before ever tapping into the chartered organizations (COs).  That is the best financial outcome for the claimants that is what the TCC said was its only concern.

    I’ve not listened twice, but my recollection is that the TCC vice chair said something close to, “From the outset, our concern has not been the continuation of Scouting, but maximizing the recovery to survivors.” That’s their entire purpose for existing and I’m pretty sure Stang, et al., understand the business model and structure. The BSA’s task, along with their best in the business legal crew, is to come up with a plan to meet its two stated objectives: “maintaining the program and equitably compensating victims.” Not discussing the Plan filed with the biggest player in the room was nonsense and arrogance or an act of resignation. The TCC isn’t responsible for either reason they whiffed.

    • Upvote 2
  8. 5 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

    There is no doubt in my mind that the TCC wants the destruction of Scouting.

    How did you arrive at that certainty? Personally, my mind reading has proven iffy of late.

    That little speech wasn't meant to diminish the value (which I recognized), but to encourage you guys to fight for whatever it is you think is important specifically by speaking up. I was also jumping off from the comments of many that "their camps" are most precious and critical. That's all. 

  9. 8 hours ago, David CO said:

    How important are non-monetary requirements in this bankruptcy?

    Not sure how to rank or compare, but very. I’d say inextricably linked with the monetary component, given the Chapter 11 aim to see Scouting continue. It’s worth noting, I think, that the TCC/survivors  wouldn’t be “demanding” YPT improvements on a BSA they intend to “force” into liquidation. Just sayin. There are lines between which one must read. :) 




  10. 7 hours ago, swilliams said:

    I do wonder if a petition would do any good, and I would happily sign my name to a statement saying I could care less about keeping Summit. 

    Online petitions are super easy to create, distribute, gather signatures and forward. I think the diversity of voices here, if focused and expressed, could be impactful. 

  11. 6 hours ago, SilverPalm said:

    You know, that's a good point.  I think I will send National a letter, regardless of whether it makes a difference.  

    Any of us who are Eagle Scouts were charged to dedicate our skills and abilities to the common good.  Maybe this is a good place to start.   

    I went to sleep thinking about this last night and don't sleep much as it is. Several things have been reinforced in me since starting to follow this forum and then becoming active. Here are a few:

    1) Boy Scouts National has a bunch of things that create the outline and infrastructure that is Scouting as we know it. Rankings, books, trademarks, Congressional Charter, Eagle "brand," all the IP, and, etc.;

    2) National has four cherry properties with top flight facilities and programs each amazing, compelling and intrinsically and financially valuable. They are not priceless, however;

    3) National is not "Scouting." You guys and the kids are Scouting. Your kids don't know the people at National. They are not the face and heartbeat of Scouting to them. You are. National has stuff and is the conceptual leader. You have experience, wisdom, knowledge, passion and, more than anything, the gift of yourselves in the form of quality time spent. I don't know what percentage of kids have the opportunity to experience HA, but for most of us, our Summer Camp was the prize destination. I spent 7 summers at "camp," which eventually extended into running Camp Crafts at Cup Days several years. That camp was priceless to many of us. It has since been sold.

    4) IMHO, the ideas you have on this case, especially related to BSA stepping up to save Scouting on the ground and being earnest and contrite about these negotiations with thousands of abuse survivors, are worth articulating beyond this forum. You've said the camps matter more than HA. Tell them. You said you believe YPT can and must be better, and have great ideas how it can be done. Tell them. You have ideas about not playing footsie with properties and assets, and getting everyone's butt to the table to make this happen. Tell them. You have stories of kids, even your own children, who will be crushed if Scouting either disappears or is hobbled beyond recognition. Tell them.

    Now is the moment, if ever.

    • Upvote 4
  12. 15 minutes ago, SilverPalm said:

    And as fond as I am of Seabase and of the legendary Philmont Ranch... I'd be a lot harder hit by losing the local camps.  IMO, National needs to recognize the writing on the wall here and do everything in their power to protect Scouting at a local level.  Yes, National owns the Eagle Scout title and the Supply department, but I for one would rather see Summit gone than my local campground. 

    Do you guys consider writing National, leaders, their attorneys, the Ad Hoc Committee...to share your strongly held views and sense of urgency? Your story, SP, is powerful. Many of your are very articulate and effective in presenting this case. All are passionate, which surpasses most finery, in my book. I encourage you to act. Write letters. Take out an ad in the paper. Do an online petition. They’re easy. If you don’t speak now and limit it to this forum and your Units and LC’s, you don’t want to be on the field when the lights go out and realize you didn’t play through the whistle. I’m totally serious. You might not be inside the belly of the beast, but that doesn’t mean you can’t make noise and lend some folks a piece of your individual or collective minds. If it’s for naught and so much chasing after wind, join the club. I’ve been doing that for most of my life.

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  13. 11 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

    If TCC thinks it can maximize its claims for abuse victims by keeping BSA alive, it will do so.

    As I have said, teeing up lawsuits against LC’s, CO’s and individuals is to force the players to the table at risk of losing all. It was clear by their conspicuous absence in the proposed Plan funding that those two groups had not yet taken this seriously. Again, “We are ready to launch. Are you coming in here to work on this or no? You pick. If not, you leave us no choice. It’s not our preferred path, but we will do it if need be.” Hand slap invites throw down, I suppose. 

    For those who haven’t followed my posts, I’m simply stating the situation at hand, not spewing vitriol toward you, Scouting, Scouts or even the BSA. The messy game is afoot and it’s no use or benefit to decry, deny or look away.

  14. 21 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

    Again, do NOT equate TCC = Kosnoff. They have two very, very different agendas.

    And to this I say, “Yea, verily, and pass the chipped beef!”

    One of the greatest and most damaging “achievements” of the consortium attorneys - Coalition and AIS - is their success at creating the impression they are the voice of all claimants. The media has perpetuated and magnified the charade. (I directly called out reporters on it over the last month. Major publications.) Only the TCC has that role, even if the others forced their way into mediation. Yes, they control a bunch of votes, but they do not speak for me, the 9 men representing me or the overall sexual abuse survivor claimants.

    In part, what you saw and heard at the recent TCC Town Hall was a full-throated reassertion of their role and unequivocal intention to exercise their authority to represent the survivors. I believe they made it crystal.

    • Upvote 2
  15. 9 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

    TCC did not say what that order would entail

    If there is anything that can be shared outside the mediation confidentiality shield, I’ll see if I can tease it out. 

  16. 2 hours ago, MattR said:

    There response should be it's a lot better than the 2000/year we used to have and we'd like to improve it again. Make it part of a settlement proposal.

    Agree 100%. In fact, enhancing and improving YPT is one of the key non-monetary requirements for the TCC to recommend approval of a Plan. The BSA knows that, but utterly blew it off in what they filed. Zippo. This is the sort of nonsensical, arrogant non-negotiating negotiation strategy that infuriates us as survivor claimants. Why was it not addressed...at all? “Thank you, sir. May I have another?” Good grief.

  17. 2 hours ago, SilverPalm said:

    ThenNow: I'm horrified as I read through what you've written of your experiences, and as a fellow Eagle Scout, I offer you my sincerest regret that your Scouting career was not more like mine - more like it should have been.  I don't know what the right answer is as far as compensation goes - I'm not sure any compensation can really ever make you whole - but I hope that this process will offer you some closure at least.  Your posts have greatly saddened me... that's not what Scouting should ever have been about.

    Thank you. Me as well. Your time in Scouting sounds amazing.

    I’m glad to have a place to give voice to my many silent fellows. In a way, it fills my cup. I share here more as a way to put a “face” on the otherwise amorphous group of survivor claimants, which some see as the marauding force storming the Scouting castle. I didn’t want that to be the only perception or allow the screeching voices of certain attorneys to distract from and drown out the deeply human story at hand.

    • Like 2
    • Upvote 1
  18. 57 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

    This is severely punishing youth who had nothing to do with past events.

    Which genuinely hurts my heart.

    I say this only to note the “law” of consequences, whether physical, financial, spiritual or whatever. I’m not making a judgement or saying it gleefully. “Sins of the father...” I’ll add a footnote: I don’t like how this case has been built by aggregators and advertising, assuming funny business, which I can’t confirm. I support survivors, but not abuse, unscrupulous behavior, fraud or greed.

    • Confused 1
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  19. 47 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

    Some councils are financially sound but a fair number (maybe 30?) are insolvent and supported by the National BSA. 

    This goes back to my questions on whether the Ad Hoc Committee of LC’s is representative of the whole. Is there any collegiality between LC’s such that one/some would help the others, whether day to day or contributing to the Trust?I bet not, which is sad. If there has been poor management of the insolvent ones, that’s one thing. Crap luck another. I suppose one LC mostly uses its camps and HA, so others are of little interest or concern.

  20. 30 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

    Has anyone seen a valuation for the Norman Rockwell paintings?

    I wondered, as well, and recalled reading this NYT article. It states the obvious about the subjectivity of valuing fine art, as well as the fact that some of the pieces were constrained by BSA commission guidelines. The result being they cramped his style and therefore don’t represent his “best,” most collectible works. (I’m sure the TCC has that value, at least an appraisers best estimate. Not sure if the plan would be auction to maximize, use a broker or sell at “retail.”


  21. I’m sure the TCC knows, but is there any sense of the average liquid and real property asset value of the LC’s? I realize the Councils will be “called upon” to contribute based on SoL status and claims filed, but it might be informative. Does it range from squeaking by to 100’s of millions, property values included? 

  22. 3 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

    If the judge determines that Arrow WV really is under BSA National's command and control, that argument/mindset could carry over to the LCs and all their assets.

    Yup. My thought exactly.

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