Callooh! Callay!1428010939

-So, once there's an Eagle rank on his shirt, there's nothing left for him to learn in Scouts?-

That's beside the point. There is always something left to learn, at age 8 and at age 80.

The point is there are also other things to learn elsewhere. Whose input matters the most in deciding if and when it's appropriate for the Scout to move on to other pursuits?

When the Scout leaves, is it an unjust injury to the troop? Has he committed some wrong?

The fact that he could learn more by staying is immaterial... he could also learn more by selecting one of many other paths that can't all pursued simultaneously.

->If not buy a tube of chalk

->it fails to retain the very scouts who respond best to it.

->Not sure why da family is botherin' with Boy Scouts, though.

-Age, maturity, responsibility and doing what's right is about parents.-

Probably so. Usually.

Write everything in post on this forum. Post it and e-mail everyone the link.

Plus one to infoscouter's recommendation of OpenOffice.

It's free and is an excellent suite of tools with wide ranging compatibility with similar tools.

-Scout Law, physical fitness, alert and informed mind, moral propriety

-Situational awareness and effective time management

-Formulate and follow plans to achieve goals beyond short range.

-Mental and manual dexterity to acquire and apply new skills expeditiously

-Popcorn?

"Cabin" isn't very descriptive. Some are luxurious, others not.

Tent, hammock, bivy bag, tarp, or blanket and clear sky are preferable to some cabins.

Hantavirus, et al come to mind on seeing some cabins.

If Scout wants it to "count" for something and "tent" or "outside" isn't part of the requirement, I'd lean toward "counting" it, within reason.

How about a sailboat? Camping?

Harumph!

Bead mills... easy tickets, churning out paper woodbadgers, carried over any rough spots by helicopter chartered org reps.

(This message has been edited by Callooh! Callay!)

--For the average lad, who hasn't cooked before?--

Average lad? ...but that troop is from Lake Wobegon.

Bragging takes on different forms.

-Forthright braying like a jackass about each scout earned more MB than the other at summer camp and how they all did T21 in their first meeting after crossover.

-Oblique sniping at how bragging jackasses' brags advertise their inferiority as SMs (with the implicit suggestion that the snipers are superior).

-Lampooning the brag styles of jackasses and snipers, implicitly suggesting that somehow the lampoonist is above all that.

One might imagine ways in which Scouts associated with braggarts of all stripes get much of the good Scouting has to offer.

No.

But around 83.5% of folks have become about 9.58% less active lately.

Overall that's just seven millionths of a percentage point less than the 8% drop in participation you've observed.

Could it just be coincidence?

"the values and experience are what truly matter."

Yes.

>

Indeed. And it is as true as "Once a Pinewood Derby Winner, always a Pinewood Derby Winner," "Once an Arrow of Light recipient, Always and Arrow of Light recipient," "Once a First Class Scout, always a First Class Scout," or "Once a high school football star, always a high school football star," "Once a graduate of Big U, always a grad..." and so on.

For brand loyalty and brand recognition, BSA may even tout a "Once an Eagle always an Eagle" ethos. And you'll always be an alumnus of where you went to college and grad school (and they'll find you, tell you how special you are for being an alumnus and what august company your alumni status places you in... and ask you to donate money). Organizations do that.

BSA is not a religion. A scout is loyal but boys do not swear loyalty to BSA. BSA does good things but the good embodied in the Oath and Law exist independently of the club. BSA does not require a boy to swear any new oaths or obey any new laws as a requirement for awarding him the rank of Eagle Scout... just the same Scout Oath and Law he has followed for years. Special Eagle Scout Oaths and Pledges are superfluous.

There is a kernel of truth to "Once an Eagle always an Eagle" but taking this phrase too seriously contributes to pathological Eagle idolatry that drives several negative trends in BSA.

Eagle is not an end all be all status, and while it's an impressive achievement for a boy, it's not THAT impressive. It's not time to tattoo yourself and pinkie swear that you'll always consider yourself first and foremost, an Eagle Scout. Elaborate ECOHs and pathetically over dramatized presentations are unbecoming. As is taking too seriously this "once an Eagle always an Eagle business."

As a man grows older, it becomes less and less seemly for him to make much publicly of boyhood laurels. (Some men don't even make much publicly of their adult earned laurels) Within scouting, it can be appropriate to wear the Eagle knot and "wear" one's Eagle status to motivate Scouts. But it's foolish for a man to believe that other men should be deferential to him or he to them according to whether or not they or he earned such a boyhood a achievement. And as for grown men pretending to have earned Eagle? That is, as remarked previously, odd.

"I have met a large number of Adult men in scouting who claim to be eagles..... "

That's odd.

Eagle Scout is a Boy Scout rank.

Are these Adult men also Boy Scouts?

and "on how many pass through Scouts," do not "reach their Eagles, and become successful businessmen,soldiers, civic leaders, lawyers, ect, ect.

Scouts are human beings. So among them we find some seeking MB and rank awards via dishonest quibbling and shortcut cheats. Parents are also human beings and a few may be more inclined to put feathers in their sons' caps than character and knowledge into the heads on which those caps sit.

But when we hear Scouters' complaints about these Scouts and their Parents, it's worth remembering that Scouters are also human beings and they can be wrong, even in numbers. Some Scouts or Parents about whom we may hear complaints, may actually be doing Scouting a good turn. They may be engaging in community level FON Ops.

In Freedom of Navigation Operations, vessels navigate disputed waters to assert the right to do so and to prevent any power from establishing illegal precedent that it controls those waters.

Scrap lumber, good. Treated wood in the scrap lumber, bad.

"I have one question;

What?"

Two answers to that question: Yes. And No. Which fits depends on what what.

Re: testing. If Merit Badge or ranks were tested and those tests were recognized and somehow accredited like CLEP or DANTES, that'd be neat. But it would be costly to maintain test security standards and to maintain tests deserving of accreditation. The skills portions of tests would be even more costly as we'd need a system to train and accredit examiners to high and uniform standards.

Some would be willing to pay for that kind of thing.

Others might prefer that a wide range of unaccredited MBs and Scout rank options remain for those who want to have the experience and character and skill building but are less concerned with earning a marketable credential.

"Scouts know the true leaders........Let them pick the true Eagles."

When we see "true" modifying something, as in "true freedom," "true democracy," or "true Eagles," we ought consider that maybe the source has in mind something other than the "true" meaning of the word they find so insufficient as to require "true" as a modifier. It is often so.

If one can achieve Eagle simply by meeting currently published standards, even if those standards are rigorously met, the field is open for nearly any boy among the hoi polloi to achieve the rank if he applies himself.

That doesn't sit well with folks who want Eagle to be an exclusive and lasting mark of superiority. They're not satisfied for Eagle to be a happy mark of boyhood achievement that many boys can achieve if they apply themselves. They want it to be a noble title that forever marks its wearer as above the common herd.

But if the "true Eagles" are truly "the best of the best." they won't need a boyhood title to carry them on to the great things they'll do as men. And they'll be above petty anxieties over the exclusivity of an achievement they achieved as boys.

Scouting is centered around the Oath and Law. A Tenderfoot Scout can and a First Class Scout should exemplify both as well as an Eagle Scout.

Outdoor skills? A First Class Scout who has earned the Camping Merit Badge has Eagle level outdoor skills.

Before we answer the question, "how could we guarantee Eagles were truly the person the general population expects from these scouts?" Maybe we should first ask: Who is this "general population?" How did we determine what it "truly expects?" Why should we "guarantee" what it "truly expects?"

And if "true Eagles" are the "best of the best."

That leaves a question... best at what? And whatever it is, why would we assume it's evenly distributed such that every troop includes scouts that merit the rank? What if there are no "true Eagles" in the troop? Allowing troops with no "true Eagles" to select Eagles by accident of demographics is no way to guarantee that all Eagles are "true Eagles."

For the sake of "old fashioned northern GOP conservatism," one comes to bury far left wingery, not to praise it. Just as did Shakespeare's Marc Antony, beholden to the Romans "for Brutus sake," speak of Caesar.

Quote: "Troops should have substantial freedom to determine their own standards for what it means to be an Eagle Scout."

The requirements are centrally established, published, and relatively clear. To be irked at someone "only meeting the bare minimum" is to misunderstand "requirements." The "bare minimum" IS the full requirement. Anything less doesn't cut it. Anything more is extra.

Maybe troops that want an award for some extra level of Super Duper Scoutliness could invent their own award and determine what standards are necessary to earn it.

Eagle is a fine goal and achievement. But it's not the end all be all that drives:

-Scouts wrangling in unseemly ways to get it

-Parents wrangling in unseemly ways to get it for their sons

-Scouters wrangling in unseemly ways to protect its supposed sanctity

-Scouters upping the ante to earn it

-Moral exhibitionists "renouncing" it to show their saintly support for gays or athiests

-Elaborate ECOHs

Think of it as a SOF unit with nonstandard uniforms and relaxed grooming standards. One assumes not many maintain regulation haircuts and even fewer shave.

"Get out of da classroom, Callooh Callay. Join da rest of us havin' fun with kids in the woods."

You're preaching to a choir, Pastor. And quoting scripture even. Perhaps the hymns are not your favorites because some of the lines sound heretical in light of the particular verse quoted.

But the central message the choir takes from your sermon is a welcome and positive one.

Physically Strong is not incompatible with Mentally Awake and improvements in one need not come at the expense of the other. And fun should be a component both in the classroom and in the woods.

(This message has been edited by Callooh! Callay!)