39 minutes ago, yknot said:

That's my point. From the comments on this board, its clear we were all raised that way. I was free range. I roamed the neighborhood and local woods with a large pod of kids. We had drama, crises, fights, danger, you name it. We worked it out among ourselves. No parent involved. No parent even knew unless someone squawked. We learned how to interact with each other. We had bigger families and learned how to handle sibling relationships and responsibilities. Kids are not growing up with those opportunities and skills anymore and that's why I think it might be useful to look at whether scouts needs to look at ways to teach those skills. The current patrol method kind of assumes kids come to us already having some of those skills but from what I've seen, they do not. Simply throwing them into the fire or the deep end of the pool without any kind of road map and hoping they figure it out is possibly one reason why we lose so many 10 and 11 year olds. It might be worth looking at.  

I set out the experience from the 80’s that seems a little different than what I’ve been reading.

5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Is it possible? I have said many times over the years on this forum that adult run programs are usually advancement programs because they are so easy to follow. They don't require much personal guidance or coaching because the results of the scouts actions are obvious to everyone, especially the scout. The uniform is the same, most Eagle Mills are the best dressed programs because a uniform is basically a check list. Patrol method program are more ambiguous because counseling is deeper into how to make right decisions based on the Scout Law. Uniforming a patrol method troops is less tidy because the dictates making right decisions based on his growth and maturity. By  the end of my Scoutmastering, I could identify a boys level of maturity or general attitude of life just by how he wore the uniform.

Allowing a scouts to grow in the decision making process requires a lot of patience because that process takes years. And maybe that style of adult guidance isn't piratical in this culture.

But I wonder what growth comes from following instructions to Eagle. The largest Troop in our district is a bragging 200 scouts strong program that promises Eagle by age 14 if they follow the Troop advancement map. The troop sets a goal of at least 80 new scouts a year, and usually reaches that goal. I used to wonder why the troop wasn't bigger. 80 new scouts a year is a lot. 80 new scouts a year every year and only 200 scouts total. I learned the troop also looses at least 80 scouts a year by age 14. Scouts aren't asked to leave at age 14, but the program is so structured to reach Eagle by age 14, that there is nothing much for those who stay. I can go on and on, but the troop is truly an adult run program. Walk in and follow an adult to the next stop on the map to Eagle. Finish that step and follow an adult to the next stop to Eagle. 

I once had an Eagle Scout from that troop lead our NYLT course. He was impressive and I asked him how he manage to stay in the program so long after age 14. He said, a few of us actually liked other parts of scouting. I realized he is one of those special rare scouts that is a natural leader and can't get enough of it. He loved our NYLT because it truely was the first time he was the leader of the program. No adult telling him what to do.

I don't know what to say Matt. Our troop was half the size of that troop and had the 2nd most Eagles in the district. We were the opposite of an adult run troop. We were certainly not an advancement program. The difference between our programs was our average Eagle was almost 17 years old. Almost half of our scouts where 14 and older, and we had the largest group of older scouts in the council. That includes all the Venture Crews and whatever else.

I believe there are two paths being discussed here: one is your suggestion of a planned out step by step program where the scouts check a box and move to the next step. Same as the Eagle Mill I described. The other is plan of personal development by putting a patrol in situations where they have to decide how to go forward. I agree the Eagle Mill is easier for the adults. The Patrol Method route develops more personal growth. I've seen it and understand the two paths. But, the future of scouting appears to require inexperienced adults who need a step by step plan to know when the scouts actions are successful, so they know when their own actions of managing the program are successful. 

I believe adults have a role, but their role in the traditional program was limited with the intention to guide young adults to grow in adult skills. That requires the adults to grow as much as the scouts to be successful, and maybe that is asking too much of adults anymore. 

As I've claimed before, the changes folks in this forum seem to want for scouting leads to a more after school type program where the adults know exactly where the scouts are in location and can measure where they are in the program at all times. Maybe that is all this culture will allow now. I'm settled with that, but it's not scouting for me. 

Barry

The two pronged approach you discuss came  after me In ‘87 or I have no memory of it.  Historically, Scouts drew directly from and was formed around military traditions and structure. The merit badges frequently had either direct correlation or applicable though that has softened somewhat.   There is a reason there is a wide range of commands, formations and activities that echo this. Likewise, the traditional development attributes from scouting up to very recently if not still so allowed enlisting members to have one upgrade rank on coming in.

it seems modern parents may not be cognizant of these facts and in some cases bitterly refute or resent it.  Be that as it may, the program ought to be a hybrid...in my view.  In the service, the leadership development is fairly well developed through enlisted, NCO and Officer.  All these steps have training to advance and that include skills and competency with instruction and evaluation.  Appropriately, new members observe and learn what to do, each grade learns by example from senior and do on.  They have to prove their merit and competency.  
 

None of this is new or surprising.  The adult military is not a perfect fit but has been an excellent one.  While scouts doesn’t have NCO schools or basic training, they do offer the echo of a successful formula.  The structure, instruction, incentives, duty, respect and advancement are wildly beneficial to boys...I simply don’t know about how girls respond so I can’t speak to that.  
 

When I came through, we loved the summer camp, marching, formations, bivouacs, long hikes, attention to uniform and so forth.  Being from the south, marksmanship was especially liked and many of the troops played guerrilla warfare on camping trips with great relish. Many, if not most, of the fathers and adult leaders were prior service.  (It’s no coincidence the south has traditionally supplied large numbers of military personnel to the armed services).  Perhaps many current adults might find this repellent and not why they signed up...it’s been said already on this forum except in a far worse delivery.  But, that’s how it was in the Chickasaw Council and kids loved it and didn’t turn out as war mongering autocratic adults.  
 

The platoon part of what you describe s intriguing because I don’t know how it works.  Adults don’t do the work for the scouts but guide, set limits, arbitrate, set examples and take on the responsibilities that are not for minors.  They exercised experience and wisdom where youth lacked and made sure the environment was a fun and learning one.
 

The scouts take the instructions when given and pass them down to their patrol members.  The patrol leaders are responsible for organizing, delegating, monitoring and being held accountable for a variety of tasks.  That’s how our troop worked.  The hierarchy and rank, like the armed services, worked.  
 

I’m at a loss to understand what could be done differently, but clearly, a lot has changed since ‘87.

19 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

WASHINGTON – The National Park Service (NPS) today announced 330,882,751 recreation visits in 2017 – almost identical to the record-setting 330,971,689 recreation visits in 2016. While numbers were steady, visitors actually spent more time in parks during their 2017 visits compared to 2016.

Increased attendance at parks, 1.5 billion visits in the last five years, also means aging park facilities are incurring further wear and tear. President Trump has proposed legislation to establish a Public Lands Infrastructure Fund that would help address the $11.6 billion maintenance backlog in the National Park System. The fund would take new revenue from federal energy leasing and development and provide up to $18 billion to help pay for repairs and improvements in national parks, national wildlife refuges and Bureau of Indian Education funded schools.

“Our National Parks are being loved to death," said U.S. Secretary of the Interior Ryan Zinke. "As visitor rates continue at a high level, we must prioritize much-needed deferred maintenance including aging facilities, roads and other critical infrastructure. President Trump's proposal to establish a Public Lands Infrastructure Fund is a step in the right direction. This is not a Republican or Democrat issue, this is an American issue, and the President and I remain ready to work with anyone in Congress who is willing to get the job done.”

National Park System 2017 visitation highlights include:

• More than 1.44 billion recreation hours in 2017, an increase of 19 million hours over 2016
• Most – 385 of 417 parks in the National Park System – count park visitors
• 61 of the 385 reporting parks set new visitation records (about 16 percent of reporting parks)
• 42 parks broke a record they set in 2016
• 3 parks had more than 10 million recreation visits – Blue Ridge Parkway, Golden Gate National Recreation Area, and Great Smoky Mountains National Park
• 10 parks had more than 5 million recreation visits
• 81 parks had more than 1 million recreation visits – one more million-visitor park than 2016
• Half of national park visitation occurred in 27 parks
• The total solar eclipse last August brought visitors in record numbers to several parks

Parks that passed notable recreational visit milestones for the first time:

• Grand Canyon National Park 6 million
• Zion National Park 4.5 million
• Glen Canyon National Recreation Area 4 million
• Boston National Historical Park 3 million
• Glacier National Park 3 million
• Bryce Canyon National Park 2.5 million
• Kennesaw Mountain National Battlefield Park 2.5 million
• Big Bend National Park 400,000
• Great Sand Dunes National Park & Preserve 400,000
• Mississippi National Recreation and River Area 400,000
• Allegheny Portage Railroad National Historic Site 200,000
• Congaree National Park 150,000
• Great Basin National Park 150,000
• Little Rock Central High School National Historic Site 150,000
• Monocacy National Battlefield 100,000
• Waco Mammoth National Monument 100,000
• Gila Cliff Dwellings National Monument 75,000
• Palo Alto Battlefield National Historical Park 75,000
• James A. Garfield National Historic Site 50,000
• National Park of American Samoa 50,000
• Ulysses S. Grant National Historic Site 50,000
• Agate Fossil Beds National Monument 30,000
• Hagerman Fossil Beds National Monument 30,000
• Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve 30,000

It’s good to appreciate our own country.  I’m not sure where the money is going to come from for a lot of needs on the National wish list.  This year hasn’t helped for an already runaway spending habit.  But let’s hope for the best

1 hour ago, sst3rd said:

Everything has become so complicated. Complicated. But through all of the changes that I have witnessed over the 53 years (youth/adult), the following is still possible.

1) You can still have patrols and use them appropriately to the betterment of the scouts.

2) You can still have fun and challenging weekly meetings.

3) You can still plan and go on camping trips, service projects, summer camps, high adventures, backpacking, and lots more.

4) Fund raise to pay for these activities also can happen.

All scouting is local. It doesn't have to be that complicated.

YIS

sst3rd

I agree with your statements.  There are complications to it however with the last 4 upheavals (sex abuse aside) and how content and changes are made and enforced.  Once bureaucracies get involved with changes a lot can happen that isn’t good.  This is especially worrisome In determining policing young scouts in their attitudes, comments and behaviors among themselves.  The scope of prohibitions and sensitivity has ballooned and will be subjective based on any one adult or child’s sentiments.  The scope and breadth of potential proof of determined training and content may well mushroom to having audits from a larger bureaucracy to be certain all goals regarding politically charged content is being instilled and retained before advancement.  If it sounds far fetched, maybe it is, but when an institution or organization is hauled before the court of public opinion and can be judged on the basis of a few cases rather than the whole, it becomes more real.  
 

people record each other all the time now with phones and PC culture is intolerant and subjective beyond measure.  A camping trip where kids are goofing around and say things in jest or act in ways that might upset one person suddenly gets beamed around the world and becomes an indictment of the whole.  Kids are not allowed to learn by making mistakes.  They are not allowed to relax and be themselves in such an environment.  So what is an organization to do?  Rely on local parents and leaders?  Probably not.  Have a rigid system constantly monitored by national because it’s been stung over and over?  I would think more likely.  Be nice and respectful, the golden rule, teaching negotiation and problem solving no longer are smiled on.  We see the common sign of “zero tolerance” for a long list of actions, behaviors, words, phrases, and implied  thoughts that make people so paranoid it’s no longer fun.  Today, unlike previous generations, the environment is not the same.  It is knee jerk reaction, potentially global and much more punitive.  That’s why the traditional enjoyment CAN end up so badly and with drastically reduced positivity. 

46 minutes ago, yknot said:

 

 

Whoa. I think you misinterpreted what I said. There is no issue in my mind with having LDS Chartering Organizations and units. LDS units, as any other religious or community contact, should be completely welcome in scouting, and I have often said I hope many of them come back in time. The issue is how the core scouting program was adapted over the years to fit specific LDS needs. The program, with perhaps minor tweaks to fit local circumstances, should be largely the same for all.

I disagree about the structure. I have my own theories about why the Catholic Church and Scouting have both been particularly vulnerable to infiltration and then enabling of child predators. The franchise like structure of both often leaves no one really in charge and does not foster communication or collaboration. Both organizations are bureaucratic, hierarchal, insular, and prone to allowing their most local manifestations to operate in a silo that can become almost a personal fiefdom for a few individuals. Problems result. Most other youth organizations are not run this way. 

"When children choose" is perhaps your key comment and one that I appreciate most. I think that's what we need to focus on, and not on what parents will choose. In another post, I talked about how many scouts we lose within the first year or two after crossover. Most love cubs, but the focus on Eagle and aggressive advancement, that appeals greatly to parents, and the weakening focus on outdoor adventures, at least in my opinion, is why we are not appealing as much to children. I hope as we go through this process that BSA does focus on want children want. 

 

I appreciate your feedback.  I understand your idea better.  I was, instead, addressing the theoretical and thorny issue of how to balance any group’s influence and dominance over a system and how to manage that.  From that particular perspective, it is a balancing act and can take sinister turns either way.  But I get that isn’t really what you were addressing.  It was really the description of “allowing a single religious group to run a shadow program,’ that motivated my response.  There was no real criticism of your observations but rather an expansion of one area that struck a cord with me. 
 

There can be a great deal of truth to what you say and it is an inherent problem with a relatively democratic system.  I was focused on a big picture scenario of just how a balance could be achieved.  My description of somehow controlling composition was a concern in the abstract that any group could face.  Likewise, the real problem of when too few people step up to lead guide and assist with time, resources and people and by circumstance or default end up with disproportionate control.  One could argue that by virtue of their influence, the organization survived...or could equally fall depending on circumstances.  
 

I have a pretty big libertarian streak so I tend to have a robust skepticism of centralized control, especially across the breadth of a nation. I realize that one could make the counter argument that without reasonable control and guidance you end up with a mixed bag.  It can be a tough call and requires a great brain trust of balanced thinking and dedication to maneuver. 
 

There is an excellent book called, “The Starfish and the Spider: The Unstoppable Power of Leaderless Organizations.”  It is worth reading.  Scouts may well take some of the examples of AA.  It’s chapters are ubiquitous and all run the same with the same content and program. Yet, there is no central authority.  When the internet started, investors could not get through their heads the idea of a leaderless entity that makes money.  The Apaches could never be conquered or exterminated by the Spanish because they did not have central authority.  In a more ugly and unfortunate example, Isis and Al Qaeda have proved maddeningly difficult to stamp out precisely because they are a decentralized franchise.  Yet they more or less do the same things.  

The idea of decentralized control is neither foreign nor inherently flawed and doomed to failure.  
 

As a hybrid example, Churches present a classic example of both sides of the picture.  Centralized control is good for towing the party lines and consistency in a particular interpretation, doctrine, ritual and practice of theology.  One of the biggest enemies of the church is schism,  that happens over and over and we have such a wide range of results and content as to be dizzying.  
 

Schism in scouts, I think, would be worse since the organization is put on the chopping block and sub groups spend more time invalidating the others than getting things done.  
 

So part of the job of any group of leaders, be they local, regional or national, is to convince the members and public that they have legitimacy.  That is no easy task at this point for all the reasons everyone has mentioned.  This is something, I think, the do not have for the majority gor all sorts of reasons.  At its heart, legitimacy comes from individuals.  No one can mandate it, force its acceptance, force people to like or respect it nor honor its actions.  This attribute is beyond the control of outside forces, hierarchy of leaders and interested parties.  This no doubt will enrage those trying to force change with colorful metaphors to describe those not giving their consent to legitimacy.  But such is the cost and burden of change.

25 minutes ago, yknot said:

Yes. The prime reason scouting is in such a dire place is because of deep rooted, long term internal problems. BSA should never have allowed a single religion to run a shadow program within a program the way it did with LDS. BSA should never have limited its managerial talent pool largely to people within the organization. BSA should never have shifted its focus to marketing and membership instead of remembering that it is a movement focused on service, citizenship and character first. And the out of doors. BSA should have never allowed its organizational components -- national, council, unit -- to become so distinct from each other so incapable of collaboration on a common mission.  Stuff like that.  

What you say is in some respects true but there are factors that cannot be overlooked that make the problems difficult to overcome.  

It seems to me, that when bringing up the Dominance of a religious group, you get into really hot water.  Protected class from discrimination aside, the scouts would be in the unsavory position of having to convene committees or Star chambers to adjudicate persons on these sorts Of beliefs and undertaking purges to maintain some desired effect.  The idea that one or more people could decide state by state, region by region or nationally on this basis sends a chill down the spine...or it should.  That sort of practice and message sent to scouts, parents, volunteers and sponsors would be alarming and dangerous.  If it could happen to the Mormons, then any group could be picked on.Eagle is open to all, God and country to each in his belief system.  What does it say about an institution that selects and purges or partly purges a belief system they recognize as important?

I understand the disproportionate representation and power effect.  This portion is supposed to be checked by laws and bylaws that members agree to uphold.   Yes, the in group at any given time can change the rules to suit them and remake the organization into some different one. The last 4 major upheavals  due to external PC bitterly prove that point. 
 

You are correct about what the focal points have traditionally been.  But somewhere that broke down and became an ongoing tool for activism and change in the larger society rather than the development of character, leadership, service, brotherhood and skills particular to scouting.   I disagree about the region and councils being too separate.  The scout book lays down the purpose and particulars among other things.  People sign up for that content and local fellowship and activities.  At its core, scouting is local and joined at the hip with local family, community and interests.  Those common threads and traits are in every community across the US.  Local culture, history, tradition, concerns and so forth are what scouts deal with as an anchor to a larger world.  This is one reason a national organization can be do pernicious and insulting. It feels it knows what is best for locals.  How much more do when outside pressures force change they feel is right when often they have no connection.  
 

Ultimately, I would suggest, Scouting is in a bind like all organizations of its type or service groups.  Who steps up to the plate to lead?  Are the policy hawks, religious, dedicated, educated or even competent? One unfortunate reality is that stewardship of an organization in part or whole is dependent on these human factors.  If nobody or fee step up to the plate to lead, then it can fold in part or whole.  This happens all the time.  If locals aren’t interested, it folds.  I happen not to be Mormon, but I can’t help but admire them for bringing hundreds of thousands of enthusiastic people into scouting that set a stellar example for the traditions of scouting.  They stepped up, volunteered time, skill and resources to make it happen.  For generations of scouts, these participants seem to have not only kept the traditional spirit going but made it respectable and honorable despite the larger decline of service organizations.
 

 Is it any wonder that they finally threw in the towel when the institution they helped lead, support and nurture became more twisted from its original character?  Is it any wonder that Non Mormons are equally put off and might just feel the same?  Why give time, talent, support and new blood to something that no longer exists?  Is it bigotry, racism, fanaticism or just plain mean spirited?  Some might hasten to say so, but I disagree.  Forced change from above is an anathema to many.  Forced political and ideological indoctrination robs people of intellectual space and freedom.  Let kids learn in the schools and at home.  Scouts should be a neutral ground for local kids.  
 

now, we’re forced to ask, what will count leaders learn?  Do people learn what went wrong and why? Do they find a way to bring back millions of interested people who believed in scouting and what it has done?  Do they dismiss and waive off dissenters as good riddance?  Who are the leaders and how will they respond?  From the ground up? Or from on high with edicts?  Do they become pawns of social activism of the day or stick to principles?

those are questions that need answering.  The proof will come in the future when children choose.
 

16 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

Change is inevitable.  Change is not necessarily improvement, even when the change is returning to what previously worked.

Indeed that is correct.  A slightly different approach is that progress is not always forward.  Sometimes lateral and indeed backtracking to an effective format.  
 

Another one of those bitter ironies of history that people have trouble accepting is that the more people are equal, the less free they become.  It’s inverse is true.  These objectives do not work in tendency with what people seek to achieve.  Communism.  That,  of course, goes to the lowest possible common denominator  where everyone socially is officially equal but only has the freedom to do what they are told and even then hope it turns out correctly.  Those societies are, perhaps, the most shocking examples of where everyone is supposed to be equal because it is progress for all.  It took the irony fist of government intervention to be sure everyone never bucked the system.   We have seen how those societies worked out.  Freedom, as it’s been correctly observed, once gone is very very difficult to regain on a societal level.  
 

The ideas go further though in distinguishing equality of opportunity versus equality of outcome.  The latter is where contention arises so fiercely and wherein the danger seems to be the greatest.  The latter, it seems, forces the loss of freedom on a colossal scale and presumably bars choice since those not like long the outcome could leave and go elsewhere.  That would thwart the desired outcome.  It would bar freedom of expression since, again, expression contrary to a specific outcome of equality would block that.
 

 Extreme? maybe, but these observations make the point that isn’t publicly discussed.  Freedom, equality and equality of outcome are not honestly addressed when overtures and demands for progress ‘forward’ are being made.  

Scouts has obviously changed.  It has gone through convulsion after convulsion with no end in sight.  It has seen two world wars, Korean, Vietnam, Cold War and modern wars. It has rumbled through boom and bust with dignity, pride, bearing, respect and a vital element in the social fabric.  
 

it’s ranks have produced many leaders and men of character and its programs instrumental in shaping countless lives in positive ways.  My father, uncle and I got our eagles and supported others in our troop.  The men I knew were of good caliber, respected, ethical and had a genuine interest in seeing young men succeed (and presumably not just getting out of the house for a few hours).  
 

I cannot summon the dead to testify but I feel certain few of them would recognize the institution they worked for all those years.  In one sense (sex abuse cases aside) the many changes that have taken place are a repudiation of the time and effort they put in for their beliefs.  The culture, the lingo, traditions, images and symbolism with their meanings, the bonding and the sense of adventure and purpose.  These have been pulled down at every turn with the implicit statement that ‘your and your understanding and thoughts of the world are and always have been wrong.  We are reshaping everything from the top down and will continue to do so.’  Why not? One political change deserves as much attention and respect as the next so keep reshaping it.  
 

It’s become clear, that for many people, it’s over.  They’ve moved on.  The Mormons did and others did.  In the future, many more will fall away too.  Yet there will be newer people to come in I suppose.  They will no doubt accept whatever they are told to do or quit.   In this sense, scouting as some sort of entity will persist.  The new national  chapter will plug in whatever new policies need to take place and force the councils to comply.  That’s the true reality. They might clearly say, you know the changes we are making are the right ones, moral, ethical and so on (again, sex abuse aside).  
 

What that organization will be is another matter entirely.   There are plenty who see the changes as a glorious new day in scouting with a sort of revolutionary ardor to make over an institution and bring it current with what they want it to be.  They will win.  They already have. A crippled organization racked with scandal and cultural reshaping can’t really cling to anything.  People Now demanding changes could easily eliminate or add just about whatever they want and insist it go in a totally different direction.  Well, it’s apparently their day.

But it’s a pyrrhic one.  From an adult perspective, Scouts, among many organizations,  is having a hard time competing against social media.  Kids want to spend time with their friends,Now, it’s often virtual.  When they go to become active, it’s competition against sports, clubs, music and other activities.  The pool of eligible kids shrinks drastically.  

Parents are being worked very hard and driving across town town to a troop with people you don’t know it go to school with is daunting to say the least.  Church membership us often a direct feeder into scouts but attendance there has been down for years.  
 

So the changes that have been made have already resulted in consequences of alienation and departure.  The sense of betrayal on so many matters (abuse included) is so profound that overcoming that plus suspicion of more is going to unquestionably continue.  So the changes that are sought will be or have been achieved and those who will be proud of the changes will have their crowning glory.  
 

But Scouts...it is and will be something different and with a reward of being an even further diminished institution in the US.  Those who clamor for radical  and ongoing change can get what they want.  But they get it with everything that comes with it or departs at its coming.  There are many who realize that boy scouts has had its day and maybe it has.  But at its passing, it’s not so clear what part in history it will play.  In any event, it will have to basically reinvent itself to determine what it stands for.  Scouts will have to appeal to many people to earn respect and compete against forces that have a life of their own.  It will have to earn the respect of those (many)  who would like to help and participate but feel so alienated that their time and commitments elsewhere make it easy to ignore an organization that no longer maintains its historical credibility (to them).  
 

there will be those who say something to the effect of, ‘well, if you don’t like what we are changing to, find something else.’  Fair enough, but that shows a degree of hubris that is hardly inviting.  So what can be done about scouts survival?  At the moment and after reading posts for months...I don’t have much to say on that. Scouts may have to be re-invented altogether in order to avoid political culture.  Some of that exists.  
 

1 hour ago, awanatech said:

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2020/06/24/answering-common-questions-about-the-bsas-commitment-to-act-against-racial-injustice/

Just as a reminder, the BSA stands with and supports Black Lives Matters. Despite the BLM speakers declaring that (law enforcement) officers should have been strangled by their umbilical cords as babies and that the speakers are ready to shoot the officers. Despite the BLM organizers endorsing the rioting and looting, since businesses have insurance to cover their loss.  Despite BLM organizers justifying the looting, by calling it reparations.  In the Bryan on Scouting article linked above, it mentions the Scout Oath & Law.  I guess we are to overlook the Oath & Law when we look at the words and actions of these Black Lives Matters activists?

https://nypost.com/2020/08/13/blm-organizer-who-called-looting-reparations-doubles-down/

You validate what should be obvious.  But there will be apologists for groups that have become  a masquerade for every conceivable action imaginable.  The apologists will never concede the reality.  You’re wasting your time.  As you can see and has been the case, no amount of evidence will ever shake loose the narratives that must be maintained at all costs no matter how ridiculous to the contrary.  Nothing would shaken the scales from their eyes and if thousands burned businesses and looted the acts would be conceded as wrong, but the organization still valid.  
 

The forum has outlived its purpose.  The apologists will go on to say the means justify the ends no matter what the cost.  There is no threshold of civility or morality that can be crossed, no price to bloody or twisted.  History has plenty of these examples.
 

 People can  read the news from various centrist and reliable agencies like Reuter’s, Assoc Press, and others and see the facts and figures.  They can hear the expressly given intent and justifications and rationalizations and vine to the obvious conclusions regarding a subject.  
 

There are also those who might do the same thing and simply waive away the obvious conclusions and fumble out a half baked acknowledgement that some of the acts are wrong.  The reality, however, is that the latter, like the apologist, engage in willful blindness and will let no reality come between them and what their chosen narrative is.  They may as well click the heels of their ruby slippers three times and transport themselves to a different reality.  I’ve come to the conclusion that some of those types I’ve seen on this forum have not, do not and will not ever have the true interests of scouting in their heart.  
 

Sadly, it seems that like their position, it must be that they prefer the whole system burn to ground in chaotic ashes before ever considering their conclusions grossly  in error.  I hope the rest of you carry on the interest here, because I’ve grown weary of such people.  
 

1 hour ago, TAHAWK said:

 

That video says a lot.  Actions taken leave zero question for intent.  Fortunately, they were not particularly skilled and no doubt will come up with all sorts of mitigating ideas.  I really can’t think of any reason to take those particular steps except to burn human beings alive.  Police aside, burning law abiding parents, civil servants and Individuals to an agonizing death.  
 

I’m so weary of apologists excising these people and claiming it’s outsiders and a few radicals not sanctioned.  There is a point when making such arguments moves beyond embarrassing but insulting.  
 

I’m also weary of politicizing the events for political purposes.  Using federal power for political advantage is hardly surprising or new but it is a gross slap to state sovereignty and using law enforcement as pawns.  In Seattle, it’s had the added effect of flushing the extreme right anti government militias out.  None of that is good and needs to be left to state officials, in my opinion.  Their leaders have the tools to deal with this if they choose.  They have not chosen to, so that is definitely a problem.

Kyle Rittenhouse is newer example.  There are details not published yet that seem to indicate a conspiracy among extreme right wing elements recruiting, energizing and equipping young men to go out and give them what for.  If such is the case, then that adds a wrinkle to the equation that shows more inexcusable conduct is taking place.  It in no way lessens or ameliorates the looting and burning that is a confirmed pattern but does demonstrate the additional problem of other extremists having a grand time.  Law abiding citizens AND law enforcement are the victims.  Neither side should get a pass because neither side has any decent restraint or moral fiber.  We’re long past a civil rights movement and into a criminal enterprise that is a two headed snake of hate, malice, common thievery and chaos.  Lest I forget, BOTH these extremes have reached parity on increasing homicidal actions.  
 

We are way beyond Boy Scouts in this forum but the leaders and supporters of scouting have a lot to chew on regarding guidance and leadership.  Impressionable minds are being manipulated on the streets, scouts need balance and perspective with all this and how to reason through the hype.  They need context, history and restraint to critically think rather than be swept away in an emotional hurricane of reckless behavior.  Unfortunately, public ally displayed leadership is lacking and the polarization of politics grips adults and youth alike.  Responsible adults Ive seen over the decades tone down the hype and teach meditation in thinking and action.  It’s normal for youth to be passionate and ready to fly into a cause.  But that can lead to radicalism of the worst sort and a desire to rip up the system which is decidedly NOT a patriotic stance not in the nature of grooming responsible adults and the next generation of leaders that scouts has produced.

I allege change is more thorough when it is slow, reasoned and embraced by the majority.  Each generation wants change fast and within their lifetime and in short order.  People seem to forget that such rapid change is more often a disaster when it’s forced, especially by social disorder.  Let’s hope responsible people step up and blunt the extremes and move forward in a sane way.

25 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

Maybe.  Or maybe not. 

Unlike you (" The answer to all of this is no."),   I have no ready access to information about how BLM Chicago conducts its enterprises.

BLM Chicago has a website, as you say, but the "contact" page lists no street address.  https://www.blacklivesmatterchicago.com/

This website list ten "demands":

1. CLOSE HOMAN SQUARE   - We demand the immediate closing of Homan Square (and all other unknown “black sites”) where over 7,000 people were “disappeared.”

2. CPAC NOW - We demand the immediate implementation of an elected Civilian Police Accountability Council (CPAC) with mandated inclusion of survivors and families of victims of police torture and violence – voted in by each neighborhood. We reject appointees and bourgeois election proposals, which expand the reach of the state to prevent the power of the people.

3. NO COPS IN SCHOOL - Cancel CPD contract with CPS. Fund restorative practices in all schools. Additional social workers and student support personnel in our schools.
Make all schools Sustainable Community Schools.

4. ACCOUNTABILITY FOR POLICE MURDER & TORTURE - We demand immediate firing & prosecution of all police officers & government officials involved in torture, killing and the cover ups of the murders of Pierre Loury & Ronald Johnson. We demand revoking Dante Servin’s pension for the murder of Rekia Boyd & revoking of pensions of all CPD officers who committed torture.

5. JUSTICE FOR ALL KILLED BY POLICE - We demand the name of officers involved in killing anyone in the City of Chicago for the duration of the Chicago Police force. We demand the reopening of all closed cases. We need to know the full breadth of brutality.

6. FIRE MURDEROUS AND ABUSIVE COPS - We demand the immediate firing of CPD officers: Kevin Fry, George Hernandez and Robert Rialmo for the murders of Cedric Chatman, Ronald Johnson, Bettie Jones and Quintonio LeGrier – and we demand criminal charges of murder for each. We demand immediate firing of Officers Murphy and Lopez for brutally beating and tasing Pastor Catherine Brown.

7. END YOUTH INCARCERATION - We demand the immediate closing of the Cook County Juvenile Detention Center, the largest juvenile prison in the country.

8. DEFUND THE POLICE - We demand immediate disinvestment in CPD and a reallocation of the operating funds currently allocated toward policing, which represent 40% of the City’s operating budget and result in $4 million a day spent on policing.

9. INVEST IN COMMUNITY RESOURCES - We demand policing funds be re-invested in our communities through the reopening of the 50 schools closed, reopening of the mental health centers that were closed, housing for the homeless or nearly homeless, funding for crisis centers, free drug treatment and recovery centers, and a jobs program for all who are unemployed or underemployed.

10. RELEASE IMPRISONED JON BURGE TORTURE SURVIVORS - We demand the immediate release of all torture survivors still in prison. Former CPD Commander Jon Burge & his henchmen tortured over 100 Black & Latinos (the youngest known was 13). Some still remain in prison despite the City admitting that they were tortured. Free them now!

Again, Black Lives Matter, Chicago identifies her on its Facebook page ( Facebook.com/BLMChi/videos/our-own-ariel-atkins-speaking-to-the-need-to-freeze-police-budget-with-chicago-t/2583926691653475/ ) as "Our own Ariel Atkins."  the Communist Party, Newsweek, NBC, PBS, Insight Into Diversity , The Daily Northwestern, Parole Illinois, and numerous  media outlets, identified her as speaking for Black lives matter, Chicago.  I merely state facts.  How you react to facts is up to you.    BLM Chicago is free to disown its "own," but I cannot find that they have.  

 

"The Chicago Black Lives Matter organizer who justified looting as “reparation” has doubled down — insisting this week that even calling someone a criminal is 'based on racism.' [Except cops?]

Ariel Atkins told WBEZ that her group '100 percent' supports the violent looters who trashed chunks of the Windy City Monday, again repeating her claim that it is 'reparations.'

'The whole idea of criminality is based on racism anyway,' she told the NPR station.

“Because criminality is punishing people for things that they have needed to do to survive or just the way that society has affected them with white supremacist BS,” she said.

Ariel Atkins, a lead organizer for Black Lives Matter Chicago, leading a protest Monday outside the Chicago Police Department’s District 1 station.
(AP Photo/Charles Rex Arbogast)

At least 13 cops were injured and 100 people arrested in violent clashes that led to a mostly black community in the troubled South Side to kick out a BLM march the next day.

Atkins attacked Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot — who is black — for calling the looting “straight-up felony, criminal conduct.”

“'t’s like her deciding what is criminal and what isn’t,' Atkins said as she suggested that calling the thieves criminals was itself a form of racism.

“I will support the looters till the end of the day. If that’s what they need to do in order to eat, then that’s what you’ve got to do to eat,' she said of those who even tried to smash their way into a Ronald McDonald House caring for sick children and their families.

Atkins dismissed the idea that civil rights had 'ever gotten wins' from 'peaceful protests.'

'Winning has come through revolts. Winning has come through riots,' she said."

 

18 U.S. Code 2101. Riots

(a) Whoever travels in interstate or foreign commerce or uses any facility of interstate or foreign commerce, including, but not limited to, the mail, telegraph, telephone, radio, or television, with intent

(1) to incite a riot; or
(2) to organize, promote, encourage, participate in, or carry on a riot; or
(3) to commit any act of violence in furtherance of a riot; or
(4) to aid or abet any person in inciting or participating in or carrying on a riot or committing any act of violence in furtherance of a riot;

and who either during the course of any such travel or use or thereafter performs or attempts to perform any other overt act for any purpose specified in subparagraph (A), (B), (C), or (D) of this paragraph

Shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
 

 

Well, everything you just mentioned describes a tailor made justification for stand your ground laws, expanded castle doctrine and a host of other defense of self and others from agents of unrepentant chaos.
 

 It’s a fast track to being labeled a domestic terrorist organization and legitimizing repression and even martial  law on an unprecedented scale.  There will be evaporating support and a trail of destroyed businesses and lives that will be brought on by their own choice.  
 

im not sure what such people expect to accomplish by this advocacy but it will not bring about improvement of any kind, only justification of stereotypes and galvanizing law abiding people in pursuit of keeping law and order over a subset of the population.  No matter how these groups shout, the progress and changes gained since 1865 can easily be eclipsed by self inflicted destruction.  There is far more that can be lost than they might allege, as a group.  It’s their choice just as it is the law abiding citizenry’s choice to respond in the most drastic of ways to meet the threat.  Sadly, One can only shrug and say, if that’s you want to play it, so be it.  Two can play at that game.  Overplaying ones hand is a fools errand. 

41 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Well, here it is from NBC Chicago then.  The organizer went on to say:

Black Lives Matter Chicago organized the rally after overnight unrest throughout the city, with police saying that more than 100 individuals were taken into custody for a variety of offenses, including looting.

“That is reparations,” Atkins said. “Anything they wanted to take, they can take it because these businesses have insurance.”

Additional thought: The Sun-Times is strongly biased towards liberal causes....

It should go without saying that any claims left, right or center of an entitlement to ‘redistribute assets’ from any source for any reason without due process is a non-starter.  Do actually do such things is yo invite the grim reaper - always especially delighted to have help -come and settle matters.  As we know, Advocating such positions is inciting violence and chaos which is not tolerated at all.  
 

it is, in my view, incumbent upon those who are associated With , a part of or claiming to be part of an organization  that espouses such views to suppress them, denounce them, expel those who do advocate such views and report them to police.  The same organization should roundly condemn and report and suppress those advocating those actions at least as aggressively as they advocate the true objectives of their cause.

this requires action on their part not just words and statements.  If they don’t, then they are identified with those violent elements by passive assent.  At such a point, it will not matter what they say in protest, the lack of action-real action-will carry the day.  If police are arrested, denounced and prosecuted for their conduct-as they are- then law abiding citizens should expect NO less from those demanding change.  Historical inequality and bad treatment won’t matter in the face of violence and the public call to violence.

A lesson for every young person in scouts and beyond is how to think.  Not what to think, but how to take in information and evaluate it using critical thinking.  Logic, reasoning, careful scrutinizing and weighing a host of factors is a good habit and a lifelong skill.  The older I get, the more I don’t like or agree with some of the conclusions and am forced to reevaluate.  Sometimes I arrive at a new understanding, sometimes I’m not convinced.  But it’s a skill well worth making sure scouts, at least, Have as a basis for coming to well reasoned conclusions and choices. How they choose to apply and reconcile them to their powerful drivers them is another matter entirely. 

18 hours ago, Navybone said:

Interesting - I read the actual Sun-Times article, and it attributes the quote to Ariel Atkins, 29, who is not identified as a BLM organizer   Where it is attributed to a BLM organizer is, The Sun, the Washington Times, the NY Post  which are all "strongly biased toward conservative causes" based on Media Bias/Fact Check. 

And she obviously does not understand how reality works and is a fantasy land about how reparations work. 

I do agree with you squarely on one point you raise despite any disagreements on perspective or history.  And this doesn’t distract or lessen anyone else here for trying to get at the substance of the matter.  Bias does play a role in reporting.  It always has.  The ability of people to play games, cut and paste selectively, and fabricate in a thousand different ways simultaneously.  Information overload and confusion is a problem.  
 

The site Bias check is vital.  It’s vital since they seem to get things right a great majority of the time and it’s important to have people do it.  in a polarized climate, we’re sort of reluctantly reliant on people to clear the smoke better than the average person.  I tend to stick to the Reuter’s, AP, NBC, BBC and PBS.  But there is so much info and stories that they can cover it all.  There is no doubt a reluctance and inability to get Involved in the myriads of local instances individuals bring to the table and that makes it at more difficult to verify the facts.  
 

people gravitate, by nature, to the most exciting and even outrageous stories even if they know the sites are dubious.  Unfortunately, the Verifiable facts of reporting get lost in sensation and it becomes clear that the human desire for a great story Eclipse complex issues and mundane but accurate writing.  There is not enough time in the day to sort through or we’d go insane.  Bias check is definitely a big help.  I’ve had my understandings on a few things clear up because of them and others who took the time to check.  
 

i

5 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

August 10, 2020

Black Lives Matter holds rally in Chicago to support those arrested after looting, unrest

“That is reparations,” a BLM organizer said. “Anything they wanted to take, they can take it because these businesses have insurance"

Black Lives Matter Chicago issued a statement obtained by the Chicago Sun-Times that read, “The mayor clearly has not learned anything since May, and she would be wise to understand that the people will keep rising up until the [Chicago Police Department] is abolished and our Black communities are fully invested in,” the group said in a statement.

This is a repugnant argument on its face as we know.  The very idea that businesses can afford it so I’ll get my share mocks rule of law and a binding social contract against chaos.  Some, of course, will inevitable and smugly point out that the social co tract has not been met.  That may be true in many general instances, but that is why legislative bodies, advocacy and the courts are there.  
 

That is why education, self improvement, focus and cooperative attitudes have enabled so many other groups to rise in the continued face of discrimination and persecution.  Since violence and theft are personal crimes revoked and punished by every society since the dawn of humanity the establishment of laws to preserve the collective whole have a solid and lasting purpose.  Somehow, a vague notion of injustice in various aspects of American life seems to truncate personal crimes on unknown persons...especially if they have something you want.  Lawlessness is part of no social contract anymore than advocating rape, murder and arson.  I’m actually surprised his speech hadn’t landed him in jail.  Not all violent speech is protected.

besides the philosophical part, I am fairly confident that Many insurance policies specifically exclude civil disturbance and riots.  So wiping out life savings and inventory I suppose justifies the vague sense of justice for a few beneficiaries unless they are sharing the loot among hundreds.  Once again, the specific violence rhetoric and actions, such as trying to burn officers trapped in a building, will undoubtedly be denounced and attributed to a few bad apples not representing the group as a whole.  Funny though...the instances keep coming.

On 8/9/2020 at 5:13 PM, TAHAWK said:

Trapping people in a building and setting it on fires sounds like Bosnian war crimes.  But the Muslims being targeted were allowed to shoot back.

Yeah...all the people supporting the movement and it’s collective seem rather quiet on this issue.  Inevitably, I suppose once again it’s the stale, very disingenuous , and quite revolting claim that it was a few bad actors that shouldn’t reflect on the whole.  But maybe we should just refer to those as silly guys who got rambunctious.  Seems to me that war crimes, ethnic cleansing and genocides have similar behaviors.  
 

Clearly I do not and would not mean to even suggest cheapening the seriousness and magnitude those sorts of events.  Yet, when people are herded into barns or churches, the doors barred and the buildings fired...what should we call it?  If the police lined up protesters and executed them or packed them into barns and fired the buildings...well, I have little doubt as to the rhetoric that would echo for another 200 years.  Odd how it only seems to go one way to the same degree.
 

nothing justifies it no matter who they are. The action stands on its own and should be condemned and included in just the same continuous rhetoric no matter who did it.  Those who did it, their enablers and their associates must be branded with it.  To suggest otherwise demonstrates something sinister. 

8 minutes ago, Troop75Eagle said:

I guess I was thinking of the breakup by the church in DC and thought I’d read that had been the case again.  If they are wearing Unit insignia, then that’s a good thing.

This is the reason this forum is good.  Yo clear up disinformation

1 hour ago, TAHAWK said:

"UNITS WITH NO INSIGNIA:

Want dozens of additional pictures?  No trouble.  Happy to.

Continued unapologetic overtures to mob violence and looting  make things finitely worse, as do the pandering to that violence and looting by political "leaders" and "journalists."

"Old men and fanatics playing chess with younger people. "  Sounds about left, and an apt description of the typical "university" in this declining age.

 

 

Left?  I was thinking back to WW1 when politicians and generals were moving people about.  Lol, though I am a libertarian.  Not only that, the word liberal is one I would gladly embrace but from the very specific meaning of classical liberalism as a product of the enlightenment.  That is the basis our founders used and believed.  It wasn’t til recently that ‘liberal and conservative became almost slurs.  Those modern definitions are useless.  But insofar as modern ideals go, fighting fanaticism, bigotry, ignorance are fundamentals along with strong separation of powers and separation of church and state.  There are many other specific qualities of course but classical enlightenment and liberalism is a great position to frame a stable approach.  At least I believe so. 

1 hour ago, TAHAWK said:

"UNITS WITH NO INSIGNIA:

Want dozens of additional pictures?  No trouble.  Happy to.

Continued unapologetic overtures to mob violence and looting  make things finitely worse, as do the pandering to that violence and looting by political "leaders" and "journalists."

"Old men and fanatics playing chess with younger people. "  Sounds about left, and an apt description of the typical "university" in this declining age.

 

 

I guess I was thinking of the breakup by the church in DC and thought I’d read that had been the case again.  If they are wearing Unit insignia, then that’s a good thing.

14 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

Matt, I am sorry I was not clear .  The local news site in Portland that I specifically cited  is quoting a Black man, Mr. Baskin.   It's his point.  "A few blocks away, Carl Baskin sat next to his drive-up car wash station and worried that the message of racial justice was being taken away from the Black community by 'young white children.'”  I have no personal knowledge about Portland.  I only know what I read and see, and what I neither read nor see in the media.

This has happened before, although at a lower level of violence, and it likely will happen again.  

I observed the following, and it was documented in the subsequent Kent State civil litigation,  Scheuer v. Rhodes, in which I participated  in a minor way:

In the 1970 rioting at Ohio State University, the initial demonstrations were started by the Black Student Union, with racial issues, and the LGBT Coalition, with sexual identity issues.  "Anti-War" folks quickly joined  - Nixon had just "incursed" into Cambodia, seeming to escalate our long Vietnam experience.   A few thousand people, mostly students but a few young people from off-campus, were involved for a couple of weeks, and it was speeches, posters, chanting and drums beating, as columns of protesters snaked around Campus.    A few buildings were "occupied," but the University President took it in stride - no arrests - to your  point about the "old scout." Classes went on.  It was an unusually warm and sunny Spring.

Then two State Highway Patrol agents provocateur in long hair and flannel shirts (secretly being filmed by the FBI, as it turned out) got hold of a microphone and  urged the crowd on the University "Oval" to block the one public street that ran thorough campus,  Neil Avenue. The acting head of the University, in the absence of University  President Fawcett,  panicked and called in the police and Auxiliary Deputy Sheriffs, who had no jurisdiction unless invited on Campus.  They rioted, gassing everyone in sight, even as we were ordered by the University to continue to conduct classes.  They even gassed "Fraternity Row."  The gas drifted over are area of miles around Campus.  The behavior of the Columbus police and Auxiliary Deputy Sheriffs provoked tens of  thousands of students to join the demonstrations., but it was still nonviolent, if tense.  A little pushing and shoving might punctuate disagreements, but I saw no blows struck. Peacemakers seemed always at hand.

The trucks of young National Guardsmen arrived to cheers. They were not cops.  They were young - younger than many students.  They were generally understood to be in the Guard to avoid the Draft.

In the midst of the relatively peaceful disorder, radicals from SDS and The "Mobilization" movement started setting fires on campus and pelting any law enforcement they saw, plus the National Guard, with rocks and the bricks used to pave the campus walkways.  Fire hoses were cut and firefighters pelted with rocks and bricks.  Many State Highway Patrolmen were injured - especially by hails of bricks.  Shots were fired by Columbus police, who called on their radios for ammunition resupply.  No one was killed.  A five-state supply of teargas was used up just in time for Kent State (Later, The City and County sought reimbursement from the State for the cost of tens of thousands of rounds of teargas used by local law enforcement alone.).  Cars (and furniture pulled into the streets) on and around campus were set on fire.  Many businesses, especially up and down High Street bordering Campus to the east, were vandalized and  looted - regardless of ownership.  Some shop-owners resisted violently and successfully.

The "vanguard" went on to "occupy" University class buildings buildings and physically prevented students and faculty from leaving by chaining the doors shut - not too cool fire hazard-wise when combined with the arsons.   By then, the National Guard rank-and-file absolutely believed  (incorrectly) that many Guardsmen had been killed at Kent State.  They told me that the students were the "enemy."  When Denny Hall was occupied,  I and the other Faculty "Monitors" were told by radio that a couple thousand very angry Guardsmen were coming double-quick, locked and loaded.  I recall counseling one short, plump, red-haired radical (exhorting his group not to "retreat" with a bullhorn) that they should not all stay to "resist" the approaching Guardsmen, as they vowed to do,  since live witnesses would be required to testify to what would happen.  So they should decide who stayed to "resist" and who would withdraw some distance to be witnesses to the carnage.  They all left before the Guard came thundering up, many with fixed bayonets, frustrated that the "occupiers" had left.  Police arrived with giant bolt-cutters to open the doors for the trapped students, faculty, and staff.  I and the Head of Mathematics were pleased with our work, not realizing that worse was to come.

The Black Student Union had largely "left the building" by then.  Harder to say about the LGBT folks as they did not stand out in the largely White crowds, but their issues were no longer discussed. "Pigs off Campus!" and "Kill the Pigs!" became the overwhelming theme, sprinkled with anti-war slogans.

The radicals whom I observed and with whom I dealt were all White middle and upper class from their speech and dress, and told me the forces of the government would not dare shoot them.  "My dad's a dentist," one young  person in a black SDS T-shirt told me.  They were unbelieving when told about Kent State and Jackson State.  "You're just trying to scare us."  These were the sort who would buy new denim trousers and go to the University craft shop to grind holes in them with wire wheels to prove their "proletarian" bona fides.  They were overwhelmingly male.  They did not seem to contemplate that those pelted with bricks and holding loaded firearms might shoot, even given evidence that they had done so. They had no planning for retreat or casualties. 

When vowing to "liberate" the University President's then on-campus brick house, they threw stones, clods of dirt, and bricks at terrified young Guardsmen with loaded semi-automatic M-1 Rifles and a Browning 1919 .30-06 machine gun, (600 high-power rounds a minute)  who were only the thickness of a hedge plus a couple of yards of lawn away, with orders to "hold their position." Specifically, they had been ordered by radio to fire if any of the rioters breached the hedge.  The mob of near 1000 was jammed into the street and packed against a brick wall behind them to the south.  The intimidating sound of thousands of GI boots hitting the pavement in unison sent the crowd running before the massacre could happen.  The column of over 1000 Guardsmen, two lanes wide and with M-1 Rifles at high port and all with fixed bayonets, rounded the corner 100 yards away to the west as the last rioter left the area.  The young 2nd Lieutenant in charge of the dozen Guardsman at the site had wet himself.  A couple more minutes, and no would remember 1970 as the year of Kent State.  The deaths from trampling alone, had that machine gun, opened fire, would have made Kent State and Jackson State combined look like a picnic.

The University shutdown and reopened with a closed, secured campus.  

THIS is what the politicians are playing with.  THIS is what the media, with their political narrative, seem to actually want.  Real harm can occur.

And meanwhile the greater slaughter in our cities, primarily of and by "people of color," goes on as background noise, swallowed up by the contest for power and wealth.

No peace, no justice, no retail services, no government revenue, no welfare services, and no safety.

 

It’s made infinitely worse by deploying units with no insignia and continued Unapologetic overtures to authoritarianism.  I did riot police training in the guard when I was with an MP unit.  Just training in a realistic fashion ;minus bricks, bags of urine, and Molotov cocktails) was bad enough.  People got hurt and reason flew out the window.  And this was all just with fellow soldiers. Things definitely get out of hand very quickly.  How much more so with true anger and violence.  The units rely on each other because there is NO ONE else between them and people would are so riled up that they’d like nothing better than to get their hands on an authority figure. In such situations, the police and guard are pushed to repay that currency in kind.  Who benefits?  Old men and fanatics playing chess with younger people. 

59 minutes ago, MattR said:

@TAHAWK, I read enough news elsewhere. Honestly, what's the point of these posts? It looks like you're saying there is vandalism and violence. I agree. I also read some great comments, of all things, about how "back in the day" peaceful protesters had to be extra vigilant to expel violent protesters because it just takes one bad protester to to completely skew the coverage away from the peaceful protest. Kind of like how a few bad cops might skew the work of many good cops. So where are we now? There are a few violent protesters and a few violent cops making their own news cycles in the middle of a pandemic that is killing a thousand people a day and completely trashing the economy to levels very few still living have seen before while congress is frozen in a quicksand of acrimony and constitutional crisis that has resulted in a political climate that makes everyone walk around on egg shells for fear of setting of huge arguments while we're socially distancing and washing our hands a lot while we discuss the fall of scouting. Have I covered the past few months well enough?

The purpose of these posts includes the opportunity to flesh out background problems in society as a whole as it might indirectly affect scouting, it’s mission, the need to determine an understanding of the parameters the traditional scouting program should take.  
 

people here enjoy a little sparring and weed out provocateurs and trolls to blow off steam in the changes that are taking place.  Expanding understanding and the scope of change and having a forum to respond to it is important.  The forum is a healthy place to do this and needed for the sake of its members who otherwise feel cut off from a meaningful place to air their sentiments.  It is a constructive place along to a coffee shop where people talk.  It’s not meant to be a policy referendum or convention.  
 

There are many threads to chose from and start.  This makes an ideal formula for those wishing to add and comment to do so.  Comments have tapered off recently but keeping the conversation open to any who wish to air grievances and discuss what they will. Nuanced terms like ‘few’ versus ‘many’ or new information can be insightful.  That is the continuing hope of the forum though the desire and patience of members to continue will vary. 

4 hours ago, skeptic said:

Sorry, but I find it foolish to blame ignorance, bad actions, and rude or worse language on a virus.  Covid does not make people do these things.  They make the choice, and use the idea of Covid stress as an excuse.  JMHO of course.

 

I never said it was an excuse. It is an aggravating factor.  Many things manipulate human reason and behavior ranging from inflamed passions, intoxicants, starvation, group rage, fear, etc.  Even climate starts to make a difference, it’s a known observation that the more a place is hot and the more crowded it becomes, the more irritable and hostile people get.  If humans were cyborgs or Vulcans we wouldn’t have these variations in behaviors.  As it is, we recognize a wide range of behaviors for all sorts of situations and have many science, social science, history, art and philosophy  to demonstrate the variations.

the Black Death and fervor over the crusades saw religious hysteria, visions, persecutions.  So call it what you want.  Covid and it’s consequences are aggravating factors on the human psyche and behavior.  Again, I never said it was an excuse, but human rationality and decision making are anything but separate from these realities.

9 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

The raw hate in comments by both extremes is stunning.

Covid is making things 100x worse.  Job uncertainty, spending down savings, rent/mortgage/business collapse/ constant defcon 5 alerts and fb plenty of time to sit around frustrated soaking up social strife.  I can’t even think of a good analogy except a furnace of a kitchen with nowhere to move but crowded with ill tempered people trying to work.  
 

politics was already appalling with its social strife, but Covid makes it intolerable.

2 hours ago, David CO said:

I completely agree.  Parents need to spend time with their kids.  Yes, that should be encouraged.  My comment was about parents spending time with other parents.  

Basically, the answers have the same goal in mind.  Socially, there are changes that are problematic but not insurmountable.  In an example that has an interesting but not squarely applicable idea is what I discovered while in Kenya.  I was really surprised when I was taking selfies with the local kids at a farming community.  One teen girl came up behind me and flung hate arms round me to pose.  It was later explained that this was their habit and those who went to the US had to be admonished  not to do this.  They said that in the local villages, each family looked out for their neighbors families including those without kids.  Anyone suspected of causing trouble with kids, thievery or other crimes of a sinister nature could be driven out of not beaten to death (which wasn’t unheard of).

Community punishment, civil and human rights aside, the idea was that they looked after each other and every persons home was an open welcome place for any and all the kids.  Certainly on a tribal level this is possible.  Farming communities are relatively small and increasingly in survival mode because of climate change there (again, a different topic).  So it’s understandable they could know each other as indeed small town communities in the US often know one another.  To be sure, they have their own hidden problems and I do not paint a rosy picture.  
 

the spirit and idea, however  is a balance between knowing parents who are involved in a joint activity and spending time with kids.  Civil rights and privacy here make that really complex.  Kids being immersed in their alternative social circles in the virtual world double the problem because peers listen and commiserate with each other to the point that it’s hard for parents to compete or have access.  We all know this.  
 

Thinking outside the box and rapport building among interested parties is a major step.  It cuts both ways since a person with bad intentions can be an excellent con artist with a great reputation.  Because the virtual world has really altered social dynamics, parents will have to think more outside the box.  Parents spending time with parents isn’t the sole objective but communication among them regularly can be.  It has often been the case that parents knew the neighborhood kids that came from troubled homes and guided their kids away from too much socialization with them.  Right or wrong, fair or not, the parents were constantly aware of the dangers.  That is the objective