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Posts posted by Navybone

  1. 18 minutes ago, David CO said:

    No.  Listening is not too much to ask.  But yes, sitting idly by while they riot, loot, and desecrate monuments is a bit too much to ask.  At its core, BLM is an anarchist group.

    There is a huge difference between whose who loot/riot and those who protest.  And why are the riots occurring?   And for the monuments, specifically the ones honoring confederate leaders or soldiers, do you not understand why they want them removed?  Is it too much to ask they they want a statue of a person or representation that honors, or remembers, or celebrates the subjugation is a single person due to the color of their skin removed.  

  2. 12 hours ago, David CO said:

    I think that may be exactly what the executives at BSA have in mind.  They want to turn their remaining boy scout camps into commercial camp grounds.  They'll sell the ones they can and commercialize the rest..  

    This is why we rarely use BSA campsite anyway.  Would rather use a state park - other than summer camp. 

  3. 17 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

    Lastly, I have spent the last few weeks listening to my Black friends about their experiences. I have always known racism still exists, but thought it was relegated to the few extreme nut jobs. I am learning that there still exist residual effects of the overt racism which still are an obstacle to my Black friends; obstacles and other situations to which I am immune due to my pigmentation. At its core, BLM first asks that we just listen and not get so defensive. I ask everyone, is listening too much to ask?

    I have done the same and I am astonished at what is still occurring in the Navy, a microcosm of society. As a senior in the navy, talking to other senior black officers and sailors about the racism they encounter.  To hear their sides of the story of an event I was actually involved in. Totally unaware of some of the behind the scenes actions of others.   I too assumed the best of people.  Totally agree, is listening too much to ask?  Is it too hard to try to understand what others have gone through, what they are currently still experiencing.  Don’t make it political, make it personal.  We cannot wish is away, with vague stereotypes or cherry-picking of statistics.   It’s hard, it’s an uncomfortable conversation to have.  But it’s time to get comfortable being uncomfortable.  DuctTApe, you put it more eloquently than I can.  





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  4. Just now, InquisitiveScouter said:

    Your own words convict you.

    If you are accusing me of being intolerant about people who refuse to admit that there are race issues in this nation and staying the course, doing what we have always been doing is enough - guilty as charged. 

    I support the BSA's effort to shape the minds and develop today's youth to lead tomorrow.  Tolerance, diversity, and inclusions are concepts that I wholeheartedly support.  I also wholeheartedly support an organization that is willing to take an honest look at itself and admit it can do better.  That is part of an organization I want to be part of.   I'll leave this last note because I feel as if I am trying to push back against the wind.  I find the comments of others to be very revealing, but I am not going to try to change anyone's mind.  We get from our scouts what we put in, what we teach and show by example.   

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  5. 4 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

    Remove the log from your own eye before you concentrate on the speck of sawdust in mine.

    I did not imply anything.    I am not black, never have been.   But what I did do was try to understand the challenges my peers have undergone.  Men and women who I know well and respect.   It was eye opening what they have gone through.    Is there something wrong with that concept, something we don’t want to teach our scouts about understanding and empathy?   It’s far easier to just think there are no problems,  to think there is nothing more you can learn, to say “don’t have that problem here”.   

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  6. 22 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

    And as you know, and should be in your experience, the military is the most egalitarian institution in our society.  Of all organizations I have been involved with in my life, the US military is the purest meritocracy I (and you?) have experienced.

    it is a meritocracy.  However, as every service chief has clearly stated, there is still racism in the military, and an order or regulation cannot erase it.  And much like the statement and purpose of the BSA statement, there is much that needs to be done, and that everyone need to take a look, have a conversation with those experiencing racism to better understand it, and be brave confront it when you see it.  there is no room for intolerance - be it due to color of skin, religion or political belief.

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  7. 2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:


    As a 26 year veteran of the armed forces, I spent more of my career supporting humanitarian missions around the world than I did supporting combat operations under the orders of my civilian governments, which you (we) elected.

    Your comment shows an incredible level of ignorance, and is downright unscoutlike.  I recommend you delete it yourself before the moderators do.

    I too am a military member with as many years in the service (and still serving) and completely disagree with you.   The US is decidedly not a military state.   There are reasons that military wear (camp pants) are frowned on to be worn at account events.   BSA is not about training youth for military, but for developing leadership, resilience, confidence, and Overall contribute to society as adults.   While this is much like that military offers, BSA is not a military organization.   What Liz says is fine, and I have concern with your lack of tolerance with people who disagree with you.   

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  8. 1 hour ago, Troop75Eagle said:


    Hmm...the point being that action-reaction with increasing fervor is not scouting.  Isolating the events of the video is hardly the point.  The escalation of explosive politics and injecting that into BSA as has been occurring and ripping it asunder.  That is the point.

    BSA is not saying they will teach intolerance or rioting, the exact opposite.  Rioter are going to riot, for what ever reason, same with looters.  But protesting an injustice, and continuing to portent is as American as apple pie.  And it’s not diversity first, it’s in addition to.   Nothing is binary here.   

  9. 4 hours ago, Troop75Eagle said:

    with regard to scouts being in danger, I will hasten to add this, if you go and google search for Albuquerque man chased down, you will see protesters chasing a solitary man, laying hands on and threatening to kill.  As a last resort, the man pulls his own weapon and shoots.  The circumstances are definitely a mixed bag of cause and effect but the point is the growing volatility, reaction and counter reaction.

    That is not scouting. 

    That the guy they have also attacking women on video, before he uses mace and then shoots a guy during a protest.  You are right, that is not scouting.  

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  10. 2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

    Hear, hear. 

    When you look at the empirical data and studies done, you cannot reasonably reach the conclusion there is "systemic" racism, nor is there a police bias.  It is perceived...

    There are, however, far too many cases of excessive use of force...but race is not a statistically significant causal factor in these.


    See the bottom of the splash page for "proven solutions"

    None of those have anything to do with race...

    When we disguise our feelings as thought, we make all nonsense possible.

    Two thoughts,

      First based on your website -  "Police killed 1004 people in 2019. Black people were 24% of those killed despite being only 13% of the population"

    Second, and the most important in my mind - this is not about systematic racism or police bias.  That is what some of the protest are about, but it is really about stopping racism in the entire country.  This is not a new problem, it has been part of this nation since its start.  It did not end after the civil war, it did not end with civil rights legislation, it still exist.   That is what the MB and the scouts can help stop.  And if we can, why would we not do that?  I am not saying it has to be a MB, but is should be part of the program.   BSA has the ability to influence young minds in so many positive ways.  

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  11. 2 hours ago, PACAN said:

    The question  on the pamphlet vs a MB is making it Eagle required is where do you want the BSA to inject itself in this area?   My point is early.  This will overtime become another last minute MB done to check the block.  Also believe it or not we are not the primary influence on a boys life.   We see then an hour and a half a week and once a month on an outdoor event if we are lucky.  Just as in Family Life MB family meeting requirement there are sensitive topics that are discussed and we are not going to inject ourselves in these.

    Two thoughts, First - MBs are only a check in the block is the scouts leadership lets it be.  If you teach scouts standards and the need to meet them early, you can instill in them the same outlook on standards throughout their lives.  You let them pencil whip it or ignore it, what is the lesson they learn.  And you can control this.  Second - if this is what you see in the value of scouting and the ability to impact a scouts life, why are you doing this?  For some, we are the primary influence.  For some, we may be the only opposing view of that they learn or hear at home.  And I firmly think we should be there for those "some" scouts.  Otherwise, why is Eagle Scout held in such regard?  Why do people spend their hard earned cash and time on scouts?

  12. 13 minutes ago, PACAN said:

    IMHO....this is a family discussion issue just like the YPT pamphlets for Scout Ranks and Cubs.   This is not just a BLM issue, it spans across all ethnic and other groups who experience racism possibly including groups we don't agree with?   

    With an almost 600,000 loss of membership in the last year. The BSA needs to focus on their current issues that could put them out of business. 

    Adding an Eagle Required MB is unnecessary.    If you want to inculcate this into scouts you make American Cultures a required MB for Tenderfoot.  Doing it as the last MB the night before a scout turns 18 does nothing for the scout or the younger guys.  Will this be a required line of questioning for the Eagle BOR?  All BORs?  How do you show diversity and inclusion diversity in your scouting actions?

    Will the BSA eliminate the OA?   Indian Lore MB? 

    Will they remove all references to Baden Powell from the history of the BSA?  Does the term Brownsea get axed?

    Regarding Baden-Powell, to quote Bear Grylls  “Baden-Powell may have taken the first step in creating Scouting, but the journey continues today without him. We know where we came from but we are not going back." (I added emphasis).  The organization and the leadership can, must be stronger than one man. It does not mean tossing out all his ideas, it means keeping and strengthening the right ones. 

    Regarding a pamphlet for family discussion - racism is a learned behavior.  The racism that Blacks in this country have been experiencing is not a new problem, and if we want to be part of the solution to end racism, of all types, than the MB is not a bad idea (be it a stand alone badge or part of American Culture).   Expose the youth to understanding the dangers and inherent inequity of racism, so that they can recognize it and act.  Empower them with the knowledge not to perpetuate.  Just like the CitNation MB makes the scouts learn about the Bill of Rights, this gives them the tools to understand why people protest when the constitution is failing them. After all, is not the mission of BSA: " to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

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  13. 1 minute ago, dkurtenbach said:

    As soon as BSA said, "this is what we're going to do," anything else BSA had say was irrelevant.  All that matters is what BSA is going to do, and what it is going to do is next to nothing:  a merit badge, a class, a review of names.

    I do not agree that merit badges are useless, so I can see why I did not follow your logic earlier. 

  14. 4 hours ago, dkurtenbach said:

    Something much more like this:  https://www.scouts.org.uk/news/2020/june/a-statement-from-chief-scout-bear-grylls/   A statement of support; of the idea that justice, empathy, and peace are part of the very fabric of Scouting; that these events reinforce the necessity for each Scout, each Scouter, each unit, each Council, and every other component of the Boy Scouts of America to ensure that we are living and acting every day in accordance with those principles.  It must be deep, open-ended, and continuing. 

    By responding with steps that are minor -- a merit badge, a sensitivity class, a review of property names -- BSA is saying that the underlying racial issues are minor.  And that is coming from an organization that just a few years ago was seen as one of the biggest advocates of discrimination and exclusion in America.  



    I am not tracking your logic -  BSA also put out a statement and then a decision to take positive action to educate Scouts on racism and discrimination.  The UK put a statement out and that is more proactive?  This is an opportunity to educate scouts on racism and discrimination, to have a difficult conversation about this subject, and hopefully develop young men adn women who can add to the conversation and elimination of this scourge.  Statements alone are no enough.  This is a chance for scouts to be educated and informed, and become the future leaders of this nation this program is designed for.  

  15. 4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

    Agree to that.  But these moves won't address any of that.  Stuff and fluff...

    If there is a merit. Badge which discusses racism, discrimination, and how it is able to perpetuate, and how to see it and react, why is that a bad thing?How does that not help? Racism is learned, not an innate belief.     

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  16. 16 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

    The virus does not distinguish between reasons for people gathering. Either it is safe or it is not safe.  If it is killing grandma to gather for one reason, it's killing grandma for all reasons.  If it's safe to gather for one reason, it's safe to gather for all reasons.

    The Constitution guarantees the right of the people to peaceably assemble. When there are extreme circumstances, that right can be temporarily restricted, but the government does not get to decide based on whether they like or dislike the reason. 

    I think we are both trying to say the same thing.  I agree with everything you say and was not trying to imply otherwise. 

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  17. 1 hour ago, 69RoadRunner said:

    The rules for this pandemic are now Calvinball.  Governors are extending lockdowns while participating in massive events with no social distancing.

    I do not see the restrictions due to COVID on businesses and families and the seemingly disconnection with the protest as related.    Governors are caught in an interesting dilemma- Public health, economic development, and protest due to civil injustice.   All three are pulling at each other and none are necessarily supportive of the other.   

    from a scouting perspective - look at the conversation we can have as part of Cit Nation, Cit Community, and Public health.  How restrictions and wearing masks are helping the greater community. And how protestors are so upset, they are willing to take risks to themselves to protest inequality based on race. Interesting times.   

  18. 31 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

    Tracing is impossible when people are gathering in large numbers at protests.

    Schools reopening in the EU has not resulted in an increase in Covid cases, and that's indoors where it's more likely to spread, unlike Philmont.


    This works for K-12, where all the students are from one area, and the COVID trend is declining.   They are also taking precautions like reduced class sizes, alternating days, and other cautions.  Schools are not opening in the more impacted areas.  all this is accomplished through understanding the health of the students and teachers, and deliberate risk mitigation efforts.  In short, this is not a viable model.

    Unless BSA were to somehow limit Philmont participation to those areas where there was declining or no COVID growth, account for safe travel (?) - maybe only within xx miles driving range.....A better model is seeing how colleges fair when they start back up in person in the fall.  

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