Terasec

4 hours ago, 69RoadRunner said:

 

I don't like how GSUSA troops basically start financially from scratch each year. It's very limiting.

Thats based on non profit status

can put some money aside for reserve and future expenses

but legal and tax issues on how much and for what

think BSA should do background checks on all that register, leaders and parents,

we all check the box authorizing bsa to do so. but no guarantee it is done,

also results of background checks should be forwarded/accessible by the unit. whether cub master or committee has access is negotiable,

this would add an additional barrier in case someone with a record slips through national background check

1 hour ago, Eaglein87 said:

Does anyone know if Chartering Organizations have been named in any of these suits?

lawyers get quite specific on who they sue and why

some factors  they use to decide, funds and insurance policy, higher you go in the org structure generally more funds and insurance liability they have access to,

state of such orgs and their rules for liability issues, some states make it easier to sue than others.

once this case is settled and national does dissolve and lawyers cant as easily sue new org.

they will probably then go after individual councils and CO's where the crimes were committed,

this is similar to church scandals, for churchs, Vatican being foreign cant easily sue the Vatican, so they went after each US based dioceses instead, each dioceses is equivalent to scout local councils

17 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I wonder how much of our annual fee goes to pay insurance premiums.  Is that info available anywhere?

https://scoutingwire.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/2017-Annual-Report-Combined-FINAL-App-Version.pdf

3 hours ago, TuckahoeJoe said:

So, who are the insurance companies that happily billed and collected premiums and are now refusing to pay?  It is quite a kick to the gut for the BSA to institute all these reforms since the 70's and 80's to provide a safer program that we enjoy today and be ripped off by the insurance companies when it come time to compensate victims for the heinous acts of others.

Unless one reads the policy no one  knows if insurance companies are right or wrong

such policies are usually very clear on litigatoon liability clauses

2 minutes ago, Eaglein87 said:

Great response. Showing leadership.

Thats not leadership

thats called damage control

9 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

?!?! Poaching, by definition, is an illegal act.

girl scouts bsa will be coming from other groups

that is not illegal, 

no different than a business targeting competitors customers,

no different than trail life usa targeting boy scouts not happy with scouts usa

your members will be coming from somewhere

with a den of 2 I would say don't stop recruiting,

ask committee or go directly to council and get any promo's you can mini boys life mags, flyers, book marks, etc.

a den is a lot more enjoyable for kids with more friends/kids.

look up recruitment tactics,

ask school if you can place a flyer or put out some magazines,

ask class parent if you can send out an email to other class parents,

have the kids ask their friends and get them to earn recruiter patch

I generally take my old scouter and boys life mags and put address labels over my name/address with pack contact info on it and give those out

18 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Poach: illegally hunt or catch (game or fish) on land that is not one's own.

 

No, girls are not their membership (there again you convey ownership).

Additionally, GSUSA made no such claim. To quote, "[GSUSA] claim the move by the Boy Scouts will “marginalize” the female organization and “erode its core brand identity.”

Further, "Since BSA’s announcement that it would admit girls to its core programs, GSUSA’s fears about the damage that would be caused to its trademarks and the mission those trademarks symbolize have been realized."

No claim of "poaching" members otherwise belonging to GSUSA.

it is poaching,

only reason not mentioned in lawsuit is poaching is not illegal,

4 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

It depends on your particular Pack and CO.  The Pack and Troop I was a leader in (and sons were in from Tiger/Wolf to Eagle) was sponsored by my Parish, a Catholic Church. I see no problems with Catholic specific prayers or Christian specific prayers at Pack/Troop events.  That said, if other Troops/Packs were involved (camporee, etc.), a more vague non-Christian prayer should be used. 

our CO is a Lutheran church, our pack is not religious itself, and members religious beliefs vary, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Asian religions , and some I never heard of.

Grace prayer I use is taken from Council scout camp that is used at summer camp and posted in  council camps dining hall,

being council scout camp, its not specific to any 1 religious preference, but the use of the word Lord, has me curious as if its appropriate for all religions

for duty to God I generally give parents handouts and discuss talking to their children about their religious beliefs, in the hand outs I include  council camps grace prayers as an example, 

am just curious on the use of the word "Lord"

in scouting I try to keep all religious references as generic as possible to appeal to as many religions as possible,

as we have various religious backgrounds in our pack.

for Grace I try to use same grace the scout camp uses at summer camp

as follows:

"father for this noonday meal , we would speak the praise we feel., Health and strength we have from thee. help us Lord to faithful be."

as a catholic "Lord" has a very specific meaning referring to Jesus

curious as to how other religions view the term "Lord"

do other religions use the term "Lord" ? what does it mean to them?

15 minutes ago, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

I am more of the "pick and choose" kind of Scouter.  I like Scouting as a whole, but for me, I'm in it for the scoutcraft.  That's what turned my crank as a Scout, and what I want my son to learn.  Now frankly, I have considered just "leaving it", and we'll just go camping as a family.  I was talking with my brother-in-law over Thanksgiving and that is what they decided to do.  He tried Cub Scouts with his son but found it to "chaotic" and decided they would just go camping as a family.

I think Scouting as a whole is a great organization when it hearkens to its roots in scoutcraft and leadership.  There are many aspects I'd like it to dump, like religion and goofiness.  These things were not a part of my Scouting experience growing up.  It's probably a pack/troop specific thing.  But there are enough positive aspects of Scouting, like scoutcraft and leadership, that make me want my son to continue to enjoy doing those things under the auspices of Scouting while ignoring the parts we don't want to do. 

Even when I was a Scout, I thought Cub Scouts overall did a disservice to Scouting, and now having been in it I believe it even more.  Even 35 years ago kids grew up fast.  Today they grow up even faster.  I think by the time a lot of kids get to age 11 what they think Scouting is about is "wussy", and thus they don't go on to Scouting.  When I was a kid in school you never let on that you were in Scouts.  It was considered XXX (rhymes with "hay").  But our Scout troop was exceptionally hard-core.  Some of the hardest work and activities I ever did I did in Scouting.  I think these kids have their perceptions skewed from Cub Scouting.

Our last pack campout my son and I basically had our own little campout at the pack campout.  We had our own campfire.  We opted out of the pack meal and cooked steaks as part of doing our Cast Iron Chef work.  Instead of going to the pack campfire we sat around our own fire and roasted marshmallows and ate s'mores.  While the rest of the kids were running around playing we worked on lashings. 

I've always heard, "Be the change you want to see", so we are.   But frankly, we're just marking time for the rest of the year until we can get into real Boy Scouts and hopefully leave the goofiness behind.

 

I also have similar gripes about scouting,

there is too much emphasis on crafts and stem projects and not enough on outdoor activities, 

a cubscout can go 5 years (6 with lions) advance to boy scouts without ever going camping,  there is something inherently wrong with that.

at last summer camp majority of the activities over the week were indoor activities, It was a beautiful summer week and kids were indoors

this is my sons 3rd year as a cub and has camped 10-15 times with the pack yet I don't feel he has learned anything outdoor related other than what I have taught him on our own outings

Lone scouting is generally discouraged, and an option for those who cant join/find a troop,

as an alternative, you can find a pack/troop talk to the leaders about following their schedule and doing most of the activities on your own,

then can probably join the pack/troop on occasion for like outings and camp outs,

a big part of scouting is not just the activities but the comradery with other scouts,

and in Boy scouts it being scout lead , hard to do on your own.

benefit of skits and such is it helps some kids get used to performing in front of others, also helps the shy kids who are always in the background to break out of their shell a bit,

scouting shouldn't be all about skits, but skits and performing is 1 element that should be explored,

29 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

Now on a slight tangent, I would love ideas on teaching whittling chip, heck everything scouting related, to a one handed Cub. One of my Cubs only has one hand, and I have been thinking about how to teach teaching whittling chip to her. So I would love to hear any ideas on teaching a handicap Cub how to use and sharpen a knife.

bsa allows exceptions to accommodate handicaps,

I just tried opening a small folder 1 handed,

takes a little figuring out, I held the handle pinched with thumb and middle finger, used pointer finger to pull up on the blade,

then used edge of desk to open it fully,

I would teach her to open close a folder, so she gets sense of accomplishment, give her some time, but don't let her miss the rest of the lesson, beacause she hasn't figured it out,

if it takes too long help her out, and tell her she can keep practicing later,

also try doing so yourself, once you figure it out, easier to teach her

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Guess I am an "old school Scouter." I believe using fake knives and plastic knives is wrong and does an injustice to our Cubs. To paraphrase William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt for Cub Scout appropriateness, Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM EXPERIMENT!  Teach them using pocketknives.

And I admit, I screwed up getting wood carving, fixed blade knives for day camp since the requirement specifically state "pocket knife."

 

fake knives is just 1 step in teaching out of many,

with cubs have to remember they are kids, 

and we are not their parents we do not know each individual kids well enough to just jump and skip the basics,

while this is a bit old and concerning totin chip

i would say same principle applies to whittling chip

if bsa doesn't mention rules for revoking whittling chip I would leave it up to leaders discretion

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2013/08/13/ask-the-expert-is-cutting-corners-off-the-totin-chip-allowed/

Good learning experience for all

I am not one for public speaking, fine with small groups,  fine with work related presentations,

but recently volunteered to present cubs to school PTA meeting, did my first 2 days ago doing another today

not often we get to practice public speaking so doing so for scouts is good practice.

1 hour ago, malraux said:

This came up in another forum recently so I went back to my bear book from when I was a Cub Scout. The number of required camping events in the 1984 edition of the bear handbook was zero. There was an option for the outdoor adventure that could involve either camping or a hike or some other outdoor event, but even the outdoor adventure wasn't required. Looking through all the old roundtable, den leader, pow wow guides my mom collected back then, it was all arts and crafts stuff. The model of cub scouting back then was pretty heavily a thing that moms were expected to do in their homes to keep kids busy.

The idea that cub scouts arts and crafts is a recent swing in the direction does not gel with my experience.

I know this wasn't your main point, but it is worth pointing out that cub scouts has kinda always been this way.

Thanks for that

i was never a scout so have only preconceived ideas of what cub scouting should be like

scouting is not what i expected it to be at least not scouting via bsa way

am now at a crossroads as to how much to contribute

it is not in my nature to sit back and have others take up the slack

12 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

In the Cub Scouts?  As a Bear?  I know there have been numerous changes in the Cub Scout program since I left it when my son crossed over (2003) but is that what the Cub Scout program is now?  We had 2 family camping trips a year plus the kids could go to the council-run summer day camp.

we try to provide as many camping opportunities as possible, within reason,

as to give the parents more options,

we still tend to get very little turn out, out of 17 bears, 4-6 bears go on a regular basis, +10 have not gone on a single campout

one of my gripes with bsa is that camping for cubs is not a requirement, cub can go through 5 yrs of cub scouts and earn aol without ever going camping, not even once, that just seems wrong to me

5 minutes ago, Thunderbird said:

Looking through the Bear adventures, many of them can be done outside.  Are you limited to doing most things inside due to weather?  There are games and building things that can be done inside, depending on how much space you have.  There are lots of things that can be done in addition to the requirements.

we are a city pack, so scheduling outdoor events is limited,

we do try to schedule about 5-6 weekend camp outs a year, plus summer camp

we have a pretty good set up as far as space is concerned,

full gym, individual classrooms for each den,

we also meet late Fridays, meeting time most of the year its dark out,

but such activities like sports, arts/crafts, stem projects is not what I wanted out of scouts, my son gets plenty of that in other afterschool activities

following the program, bsa just touches on some of the outdoor skills doesn't really focus on developing them,

as for scout camping, most of our scout camping trips is at the bsa scout camp during their activity weekends, 

the outdoors seems to be more of a setting/theme for the bsa activities, 

8 minutes ago, Thunderbird said:

Are you the Den Leader?  Even though the requirements are the requirements, the Den Leader can have a big impact on how interesting they are so that the Scouts get more out of them.  If you are not the Den Leader, maybe you could ask the Den Leader if he/she needs help coming up with ideas or organizing activities?

i am not the den leader,

den leader has been great, no qualms about him,

makes it harder to step back leaving more of a burden on him

there are only so many indoor activities one can do, that's not arts and crafts projects

Been a scout leader/dad for 2 years,

very active, in and out of scouting,

But now don't like the programming, and direction its taking,

will still continue as my son enjoys the playtime,

the meetings are too much like an afterschool program, just more crafts, and stem projects 

when asked his favorite part of scouting, its not the camping, or outdoor stuff, its the playtime before and after the meetings,

my son loves to camp, just not at scout camps, too tied up with camp activities and not enough playtime,

by the time scout season starts in September we will already have completed the bear requirements.

can a leader step back and not be as active once you've already given it 100%?

is it fair to put the additional burden on others?

stepping away from scouting will actually increase time we spend outdoors playing with outdoor skills

GSUSA has a very similar swimming policy to BSUSA

regardless of BS or GS policy wasn't followed in that case

this is GSUSA swim policy

Safety Activity Checkpoints Identify lifeguard(s). When using a staffed public facility, lifeguards will be provided. At beaches or waterfronts, make sure a lifeguard will be on duty. For swimming on your own, you’ll need to recruit a lifeguard. Ask your council for suggestions. At least one lifeguard (certified in American Red Cross Lifeguard Training) and one watcher are present at all times. Additional lifeguards and watchers may be needed; see the table below. Exception for lake, rivers, streams: At least one lifeguard (certified in American Red Cross Waterfront Lifeguard course or the equivalent) is present for every 10 swimmers, plus one watcher. Exception for pools:  For swimming activities in public pools, hotel and cruise-ship pools, and backyard pools, the lifeguards are at least 16 years old and have American Red Cross Lifeguard Training certification or the equivalent.  When girls are wading in water more than knee-deep, an adult with American Red Cross Basic Water Rescue certification or with documented experience according to your council’s guidelines, as outlined in Volunteer Essentials.  Identify watchers. One adult watcher is needed for every ten swimmers. This person assists the group by watching for possible emergencies. Lifeguards and watchers are stationed at separate posts. They stay out of the water, except in emergencies. American Red Cross (ARC) Basic Water Rescue, YMCA Aquatics Safety Assistant, or similar training is the preferred preparation.  Alternately, the lifeguard may be able to give watchers an orientation. Again, check with your council in advance. Swimming Lifeguards and Watchers Ratios Number of Swimmers Lifeguards Watchers 1–10 1 adult (see exception for pools above) 1* 11–25 1 adult (see exception for pools above) 2* 26–35 2 persons, at least 1 is an adult; others may be 16 years of age or older. 3* 36–50 2 persons, at least 1 is an adult; others may be 16 years of age or older. 4* 
                    
139 
 
Clearly identify swimming abilities. These could be indicated, for example, with different colored wristbands to signify beginners, intermediate, and advanced swimmers. Swim tests can be conducted in advance, or on the day of swimming. The pool operator or lifeguard may determine the type of swim test, based on the skills needed. Some examples: • In pools, the lifeguard can ask each participant to enter the water slowly, stay close to the edge of the pool, swim from one end to the other, and then float for 30 seconds. • In lakes, the lifeguard can ask each participant to jump into the water, swim for 50 yards, then float or tread water for one minute. • In surf, the swimming test should be held in advance. The lifeguard asks each participant to jump into water over her head, swim 100 yards using a combination of freestyle and elementary backstroke, and then tread water for two minutes. 
 
Ensure swimming site safety. Ensure that: • A posting indicates water quality passes local health department tests and sanitation standards.  • Shallow areas are marked “No Diving.” • Diving areas are separate from other swim areas. • Chlorine levels are tested and maintained. Water should be clear. • The area around the pool is free of clutter. • No electrical appliances are anywhere near the pool. • The swimming area should be free from dangerous marine life and clearly marked. • No sharp, rocked, or heavily shelled beach waters should be chosen, if possible. • At water parks, do not dive or run. Most water park injuries are from slips and falls.  • Participants should know their physical limits. Observe a water ride before going on. Use extra care on water slides.   • Monitor time in the water. How long should participants swim? Swimmers’ ability, weather conditions, and water temperature should be considered. Often, 30-minute time periods are plenty.  • Swim only during daylight or in well-lit pools. • Diving is prohibited in waters of unknown depth or conditions. For all diving, the required water depth extends 10 feet on each side of the board or jumping point. If tides, drought, or other forces affect the water depth, it is checked each time before diving is permitted. Girls do not dive off the side of the board. Safety Gear   • Ask the pool operator or lifeguard what’s available: • Reaching pole, rescue tube, backboard, ring buoy, throw bag with line (typically 30 feet) • For open water, a paddle board, rescue can, kayak, or other rescue gear  • Goggles, swim cap, and/or nose and ear plugs for girls who need them 
 
These checkpoints should be reviewed with the vendor, facility, or your council as appropriate.

14 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I don’t agree with them extending G2SS to interactions with scouts outside of scouting unless that is your only relationship with that youth.  

Even then, I would have to probably used different language.  Something like, “G2SS is a great way to ensure youth safety and we recommend following it with scouts outside of scouting events.  If you have an activity with scouts that you would like to violate G2SS, don’t be cute and call it non-scouting... as we will find out and hunt you down.  If you happen to be family friends with the scout (or have other non scout non weird relationship with them) G2SS is only a recommendation but feel free to have a beer while showing them how to shoot a bottle with a 22 over a lake at dusk.”  Ok, I’m not a lawyer but something along those lines....

I was discussing this with other leaders

they didnt quite understand the implications of expanding gtss beyond scouting events

And they way its worded doesnt just apply to no one on one rule

wording indicates all ytp rules apply outside of scouting

which just isnt practical