ValleyBoy

34 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

BSA only started to get serious about youth protection policies when they started to get sued and lose. I didn’t say it wasn’t serious now but every program has room for improvement. 

Which was when?      I left the program in the early 80's and do not remember if scouting had any policies at that time.  When I returned to the program in 2001 youth protection was a big issue and the scouting program has placed it on top of the list in the time I have been back in the program.  Other might know the true timeline but scouting has put youth protection since sometime in the late 80's or early 90's.

Yes every program can make improvements in youth protection but what could scouting have done different than has been done in the last 30-40 years.

The scouting programs youth protection issue is not the reason our troop is loosing our CO.  The reason we a loosing our CO is the overall liability that will fall on the CO. 

58 minutes ago, DavidLeeLambert said:

As far as I know, not with any of the current units I am registered with, but:

• My younger kids' pack switched COs at the end of 2020, from a public school's "Parent Council" to a church
• Several boys joined my older sons' troop after the CO of their prior troop (a Catholic parish) was dissolved, mid-2020 (and the parish's dissolution was announced in late 2019)
• Another troop (or at least one boy and its Scoutmaster) has been meeting with our troop for over a year now because the fire-station where they used to meet has been closed to outside groups since the beginning of the COVID pandemic
• Another CO in a nearby town is a church that voted to dissolve, just this past week
• And I was a registered leader in a couple of LDS units until the end of 2019

I hope that "might" turns into a decision to keep your units (and perhaps even "support" them more meaningfully), but if not, switching to a different CO should be doable.

But a few days before the board meeting, and a few weeks before the end of the year, is not a good time to be organizing your equipment, reconciling your accounts, and tracking down copies of paperwork. Just as program planning for camping and advancement a year or more in advance is helpful, it's probably prudent for the committee to have plans in place in January of "what will we do if our CO won't recharter us in December?"

I am not blaming our present CO due to the time frame.  First deacons meeting after receiving paperwork from council regarding CO responsibilities from present lawsuit. Our present CO did support the unit by allowing the unit to use there building and church van and the church members supporting unit fund drives.   We were not supported financially by the CO but they did know what the troop and pack were doing.   Only drawback will be the time frame of getting new units registered.  One of our biggest council events we always attends in the last full weekend in January which my be missed if new unit is not in place  by that time.  We do have several different options for new CO to approach, several which will not be ideal but would still work.  What I mean by not being ideal is the location of possible CO meeting location.

The closet scout troop to us will not be rechartering for next year which have been known for months.  This will leave the closet troop in our district to us meeting  at a location which is about 30 miles from our present location.

4 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I had long talks with our pastor about that.  ... Is scouting core to the CO purpose and would be significantly less without it.  Almost always the answer is NO.  

For our CO church, the church has it's own long standing youth group and it's own long-standing faith formation program.   Even more, scouting faith components are generic and not well aligned with the CO.   i.e.  the church can't use scouting to pass on their personal beliefs and values. 

So if it's not core, the church members don't invest the time and money to oversee and run the program.  That's when negligence and liability become an issue.  

 

Our SM who is also a deacon of our CO, abstained in voting during the deacons meeting along with one other former scout parent that was registered leader in the past due to there involvement with the scouting program.  I was told by the SM that the deacons that did vote to end the relationship did so with heavy hearts just due to the fact that the liability  to the church was just to great.

We have a good group of parents that support the troop but all it takes is one rotten apple such as mentioned in the above posts.  In the instance listed above with the scout bring the playboy on a camping trip as a scout leader we know that boys will be boys and we try and deal with these issues with this thought in mind.

Was told at tonight's scout meeting that our CO might not recharter our troop & pack for next year.  Our units are sponsored by a church and the Deacon board of the church will recommend at the next church business meeting that the church ends it relationship with the BSA as of Dec 31st at the end of the units charter year due to changes in the charter agreement with the BSA due to the liabilities from the on going lawsuit. 

Looks like we will be trying to find a new CO to sponsor a new troop and pack when both units drop at the end of the year.  Not something that we as a unit wanted to happen but will just have to deal with.  We have not informed the scouts at this time only the parents.  We have several leads to approach as a new CO but will not start that process until after until after present CO business meeting on  Nov 21st.

Anyone else having to go thru process with there unit.  We do know of several issue that will come up in this process such as unit equipment and unit finances which the present CO has not contributed any resources toward.  .      

The Boy Scouts of America has established the following guidelines for its members’ participation in camping activities:

• Overnight camping by Lion, Tiger, Wolf, or Bear Cub Scouts as dens is prohibited. Webelos dens may participate in overnight camping.
• Lions, with their adult partner, may participate in child-parent excursions, pack overnighters, and council-organized family camping.
• Tigers, with their adult partner, may participate in child-parent excursions, day camps, pack overnighters, council-organized family camping, or resident camping.
• Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scouts, and Webelos Scouts may participate in a resident overnight camping program operating under BSA National Camping School–trained leadership and managed by the council.
• Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the youth on approved trips.

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss03/

Our troop is more laded back. Adult to adult first name but it can get confusing with 2 unit leaders and one of the youth fathers with the same first name.  Youth to adult usually Mr/Mrs First name.   Adult to youth First name and in some cases the scouts nickname. 

3 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Yes, because it is Council that is the incorporated entity, not the district.

It is the Council that has a charter from National, not the district.

It is Council that is required to provide an accounting to the IRS and various state and/or local entities in order to maintain their status as a charity. Not the district.

So you darn right, if I were the accountants and/or legal counsel for a Council, I would absolutely tell people to make checks payable to XYZ Council, not the district.

And just as a reminder...

Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America

All payments made by check were mad out to the council.  As far as accounting receipts for expenses were turn in to the council for the expenses uncured for the event.  The problem the amount of time it took to reimburse the expenses to the volunteers that covered the cost of the event.  60 to 90 is unacceptable.  These same volunteers would not of had any problem if they would have been   reimbursed within several weeks.         

47 minutes ago, MattR said:

We would get enough cash that we just took it before we sent the money in. We always had records, that were much better than the council's, in case anyone asked. Nobody ever did.

That is what was being done until Council stepped in and informed the districts all events cost had  to be paid by Council.  Council even went to the extreme of having a professional at all district events to collect event fees. 

The biggest problem in my district on event costs is that the Council wants event fees turned into Council.  The Volunteers that put on the event then have to jump thru hoops to get back there out of pocket for event costs.  The volunteers do not like having to wait several months after the event to be reimbursed for the cost of putting on the event. 

5 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

I'm always skeptical of anything I don't see in writing, so I'd start there.  Was anything put in writing announcing this?

Second, no one in the world knows what the council or national structure will look like in December 2021, so again I'm deeply skeptical.

I believe that we are part of the council and therefore have a responsibility to put forth reasonable efforts to support the organization, but reasonable is just that, reasonable.  Make the pitch for FOS, or allow council to make its pitch for FOS and let your families decide how much if anything they can contribute.  If you want to allow your scouts to sell things like popcorn or camp cards to help fund raise for themselves or the troop so be it;  if your scouts choose not to do that it's perfectly acceptable, fundraising for the council is NOT the responsibility of the youth.

I have not seen anything in writing at this time.  If I do I will post it here. 

Your post states exactly how I feel about the situation.

4 hours ago, MattR said:

Wow, my council only charges $200. But that was before covruptcy.

It looks like the exact same formula we have. They can't require it. National said as much when they said councils can't charge more than national.  We heard the same threats. We do the best we can and tell them good luck. Treat it as a recommended donation.

I stopped donating all together. I'm not sure about your council but mine is doing unethical accounting at best and likely illegal. When they get their act together I will resume donating.

It was my understanding also that the council cannot charge more than national which is why I thought the council would be adding a council fee.   I also feel it is  scare tactic and will take it as such until I see something official in writing that states otherwise.

I also feel the same way after learning of my local councils plans.  If it were not for the boys I would almost  feel like leaving.  Local council had 2 zoom calls the 1st during the week that we held our week long unit camping trip/ summer camp due to covid19.  The 2nd was last week and I did not know about the call until the next day when call a unit committee meeting to discuss the councils plan that were presented during the call.  From the information I received before the unit committee meeting the worse I expected was our local council to start charging a council fee.  I was in for a rude awaking.  The councils plan is that each unit must raise 250 dollars for the council for each youth that is on the unit roster as of the last day July.  For our Troop which will have 13 youth on the unit roster that would be a total to the council of $3,250 which must be raised for the council before the end of December 2021.  If this dollar amount is not raised council has stated the unit will not be recharter for 2022.  This dollar amount is due to the council from 1 of the following 3 ways.   

1. Unit FOS that is paid.

2. Popcorn sales.  The percentage that council received from popcorn sales is the amount that counts toward the fee. (Council deducts the amount they have to pay for the popcorn)

3.  Camp cards sales .  Amount council makes off each card after paying the cost of each sold card.

Our Troop does do FOS  but we Do NOT sell popcorn.  We also do not sell camp cards due to the fact that the card do not include any of our local area businesses .   

The councils reason for this plan is due to the funds not coming into the council due to   Covid 19.  Projected loss of over 400 thousand for this year for the council.  The councils solution is to place the burden on the units.

My hopes is that this is just a scare tactic by the council.

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2020 at 1:22 PM, CynicalScouter said:

Cool. I thought Chattohoochie Council was still its own council with 4 Districts covering 15 counties across Alabama and Georgia.

A 1-district, 15 county? Wow. That's. Wow.

Chattahoochee Council is still its own council.

6 minutes ago, vtcchokie92 said:

@Eagledad, at least in our District, recharter for all the Packs and Troops occurs in the November timeframe and we usually finish out the payment and paperwork around the Thanksgiving weekend - just before or just after.  I just assumed (bad thing to do, I know) that was the standard across the US.

Until several years ago our units recharter  was due by the last day in February.  The council changed the due date on all unit recharters in the council so that all units recharters were due by the last day in December.

It should be the date that he joined the Troop.  As posted above never had an issue with this date.  The best person to ask is your local councils registrar since they are the one that checked all the information on  the Eagle application before and Eagle Board can be scheduled.   

13 minutes ago, atrox79 said:

What opportunity are they missing out on?  None of them ran for SPL.  Nothing stopped them from running except they wanted her as their SPL.  

Not everyone will get to be SPL.  It is an elected position.  Your only opportunity regarding that position is to "run" for it.  And they have that opportunity every 6 months as long as they fit into the parameters the PLC has set for the position. 

I think her opposition to this is that even thought the troops are linked which means they only share the same unit committee.  They are 2 troops not one.  A youth member of one troop cannot hold a position in another troop that they are not a member of which means that your troop made up of male youth dose-not have a SPL.  Them wanting her as SPL is not a factor  because she cannot be because she is not a member of the male troop.   

1 hour ago, scotteg83 said:

As fun as a canoe trip is, you are taking away the experience and advancement opportunities that a summer camp offers.

 

Not knowing where you are located, but did you price out and check other summer camps?  In Maine, we have 2 in council, and 4-5 out of council in a reasonable 2-3 hour drive.  We do have 1 camp that does the "quest" style, and that's why we stay away from that one.  Scouts can go provisional with the troop, but the entire troop will never plan to go there.

 

When I was a youth, we went on a weekend canoeing trip, but our leader covered both that and summer camp.  I have lots of fond memories from it, but it was all putting skills to use, and not earning anything from it.  Maybe making sure both can happen would be best, if you can get someone to be a Canoeing, Fishing, etc Merit Badge counselor. 

We will be working on several different merit badges during the canoe trip so the scouts will still have advancement opportunities.  We also have 4/5 camp located with less than 3 hours of our location that I am sure we will lookin attending next year if our local camp stays with the quest program 

We usually make 1/2 weekend camping trips a year were we have canoe/kayak day trips along the river using  a local property along the river as a home base camp.  10 miles above our location is one of the largest lakes inside our 2 state area. within the next 35 miles down  river there are 5 dams and 3 lakes.  The property we camp on is located between 2 old cotton mill dams have only have about 1 1/2 miles between them.  There is no safe way to get around these 2 dams and we never get on the river when the dam 10 miles above us is generating between these 2 dams.  When using this property we always check the generating schedule and know and watch for the signs that the dam has started to generate.  We are located along a very dangerous part of our local river that you have to respect.   

I can remember only several things about  the 4 or 5 summer camps I attended after my first one but I have many memories of the 4 week long hiking that I make as a scout  and the new skills I learned during these trips. After the first one I learned what not to carry.  I feel like this will be one of those trips that each of the youth will remember years from now. 

1 hour ago, njdrt-rdr said:

For the issue of not enough adults.　

As far as the merit badge program changing. Are there any other camps you can go to? We have 4 that are within an hour to hour and a half away. We've been to them all. 　

For the last several years we have attended summer camp with another troop to have enough adult leadership.  For several years only had 2 adults at camp between the 2 troops.  This would have been the first year that we would not have had to attend along with another troop for summer camp.  Yes there are several other camps we can look into attending that are within 2 to 3 hours of our location.  Our local council has been good in being real flexible on camp payment and  numbers attending which has been an issue with the troop in the past.

14 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

You told the Scouts they weren't going to Summer Camp? Why didn't the PLC make this decision?

We are a small troop with right at 10 active scouts.  PLC is 2 youth.  The decision was made for the youth to make the choice between either summer camp or the canoe trip by all the youth of the troop instead of the PLC since it effected them all and as a troop we do not have the adult resources to have supported both.

When I started this thread I knew that this was one of the issues that would be asked.  Being a very small troop we have to plan all trips and outing around 3-4 adults schedules  besides the schedules of the youth and there families.  Yes it effects the decisions of the PLC.  Yes I wish it did not  and we were able to be an idea troop with all decisions make by the youth then as adults being able to go with there youth lead program.  Not having the adult resources to do so we have to do the best that we can to deliver the program with the resources we have.

34 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Do you have the resources for the canoe trip? I'm sure you do, but the misjudge the logistics required for such a trip. Food, patrol gear, personal gear and water gear add up to A LOT. Start planning NOW because this isn't a typical weekend trip for Patrols. A good place to start is to consider an outfitter and quiz them about your trip.

Barry 

As of now we have two troops committed to this trip and are waiting to hear back from a 3rd troop.  Several of the members of one of the other troops has made several trips to Northern Tier and will be assisting us on what food, patrol gear, personal gear and water gear.  All 3 troops are located along the river that the trip will be made on and have canoed or kayaked the area of the river near us.  Where we are playing the trip is along a lower section of the river starting several hours trip below our location.  Most of the outfitters located along the river only support day trips on the river.  We have the canoes and canoes trailers and are now working on the logistics of being along the river for an extended amount of time.  We will also be working with our local river keepers group which is the best group for information about canoeing or kayaking the river since this is what they mainly do and support besides monitor the health of the river.

Up until this past week our troop was planning to attend our local councils summer camp.  last week while sitting on an Eagle Board the SM and I learned the summer camp had completely changed the summer camp program.  The program in the past had been to sign each scout up in the different merit badge time slots during summer camp.  We would have our new scouts take first aid and swimming  then what ever other classes they would like to take during summer camp.  Older scouts that had been to camp before could sign up for any classes they would like to take as long as they took one Eagle required class.  For this summer the camp has changed to a quest type program were each scouts signs up for a different quest that has about 4 merit badges that will be worked on inside that quest. Example of one of the quest. World Conservation—Environmental Science, Bird Study, Insect Study, Forestry, Nature.   If the scout wanted to take Environmental Science they would also have to take the others also even thought they might have no interest in any of the others or might already have the other merit badges.

We were informed of this change by another local SM and are working out the details of a week long canoe trip on one of our local rivers.  At last nights scout meeting we met with the parents an presented this change to them since we knew that some of them would have concerns about a canoe trip.  Then we informed the scouts, they we upset when we told them why we would not be going to summer camp until we told them about the canoe trip and the reason behind not doing summer camp.  

As a troop we do not have the adult resources to both summer camp and the canoe trip.

33 minutes ago, yknot said:

I just want to clarify that I follow YPT religiously when I am in a scouting environment. What I am talking about is when my son is outside of the scouting environment and wants me to take him and a couple friends to a movie. Or if a couple friends want to come over and have a nerf war. 
 

I feel that is how most of us try and act inside the scouting environment.  Where we come into conflict is with the rules that scouting has set in place when we as adult scouters interact with youth scouts outside of the scouting program.  It is a catch-22 situation.  Under the rules set by scouting in the above situation if none of the youth besides your child is a scout you do not fall under the scouting YPT, but if one of them is also a scout you do fall under scouting YPT since you are a registered adult. 

This is my understanding of Scouting YPT rules. 

3 hours ago, yknot said:

I follow YPT as closely as I can but I realize some of it is to cover BSA's neck. Sometimes you have to use commonsense or your child wouldn't be able to have a social life.

Amen

10 minutes ago, RainShine said:

Related, we now have patrol corners during every troop meeting. At the last one the Scouts in one patrol decided to have a sleepover at one of the guys house. He asked his mom and dad, they will both be home, but neither are registered. They're just regular parents. Obviously no other adults, like me, will be there.

I didn't block it at the time. I'm more of a 'go for it, that sounds cool' kind of guy. But now I realize I should have blocked it. I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes.

It was their idea. They were on the far side of the room, no adults could hear what they were saying. I only got wind of it later. They are going to order pizza and play video games and hang out. But... I will shut it down.

And we  wonder why the patrol method does not work when the patrol tries to plan something on there own.  Then have to inform them that they can not do that.