Jameson76

After some local meetings and conversations with local professionals, I am curious what are the actual BSA priorities now?

It seems that apparently our main focus and purpose is YPT, it currently defines the movement; then maybe training, it is most important; then making the Bechtel Summit property an essential asset (hey let's move everything there) so it can be protected in a bankruptcy; then remember it's all about being an Eagle Scout, or maybe the new background checks, if you don't toe the line, see ya; and just shut up and pay the new fee as Scouting is a great value; then let's make sure we add girls (which is fine); and remember No Bullying; don't forget that Family camping is the best thing ever; we need to add kindergartners; and there is STEM; and etc etc etc

Seems that National and Local Councils have moved away from focusing on Outdoor Programs and letting youth learn and grow.  You remember, patrols and youth led activities.  Successful Units continue that focus and honestly much of this does not impact us directly, but long-term it will be harder to bring in new youth.

Families will look at all of the red tape, and after sitting through the 2 hour YPT training and go...yeah...maybe not.  

2 hours ago, CNYScouter said:

@Jameson76 Was the camporee theme Alice's Restaurant?

Weird part was the camporee  wasn't at the restaurant, it was at a church nearby the Restaurant.  We got up there and found all the garbage in there and the troops decided that it'd be a good service project for us to take the garbage down to the city dump.  So we took the half-a-ton of garbage, put it in the back of an SUV, took shovels and rakes and implements of destruction, and headed on toward the city dump. 

Well, we got there and there was a big sign and a chain across the dump sayin', "this dump is closed on account of the camporee" and we'd never heard of a dump closed for a camporee, and with tears in our eyes, we drove off into the sunset lookin' for another place to put the garbage.  We didn't find one till we came to a side road, and off the side of the side road was another fifteen-foot cliff, and at the bottom of the cliff was another pile of garbage.  We decided that one big pile was a lower impact on the environment than two little piles, and rather than bring that one up, what with it being more than 4 feet and us not having climbing gear, we decided to throw ours down. That's what we did

4 hours ago, desertrat77 said:

Ah, not so fast.  One of my fellow staffers, a true WBer through and through, stopped everybody from leaving.  Rather, demanded they stop and listen to him talk.  He gave them a long condescending speech about the aims of scouting, including a quiz ("Who can name the second aim of scouting?  Anybody?"), safety briefing ala tie your shoes and don't stare into the sun, etc.

Not too many years ago at summer camp we had something like that happen.  We had a new Dad who was keeping up with the first year scouts.  They have a 2 hour program in the morning, request is to at least have 1 leader there if there are any behavior or attention concerns, staff brings them to the center of the area, they go back to the patrol they are working with.  Basically the leaders sort of hang out, chat, do e-mails, some do some work, etc.  

He came back to the site and told us how one person who was WB staffer, on their Council training staff, etc etc and felt as there were adult leaders there, training must be done.  She was very insistent and persistent.  Their version of discussions and making sure all were graced by their knowledge.  The area director was not really sure what to do about this.  After comments to the camp, on the second day the program director stepped in, if they wanted to do training, that was fine but they needed to do it in another area and the PD would be glad to make the announcement at the morning leader meeting.  Just needed to know the subject so interested folks could attend.

Nobody was interested.

2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 As for the book, I admit it was 20 to 30 pages, plus 4 addendum answering questions various adult unit Scouters had.

Did the event book include twenty-seven 8 x 10 colored Glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of Each one explainin' what each one was?

43 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

I think many event managers in the BSA don't really know how units are supposed to camp, or if they do, they are so risk averse they crowd everyone together and lay down a bunch of rules.

 

District has a winter event, we have stopped attending.  Basically run by the adults in the OA, complete with (I kid you not) 20 page handbook.  Troops and patrols are told what they should bring, how they should dress, are evaluated as such.  I asked one time why not send out a list of events, patrols bring what they think they need?  Blank stares.

My final straw was when the SPL and I went to the Friday meetings and there was a 20 minute diatribe on Safety.  Yes be safe, but Good Lord.  Then another 15 minutes health lodge processes.  MY SPL leaned over and asked if we couldn't just handle stuff at the campsite if needed, I said you bet.  In the 45 minute meeting maybe 5 minutes about the program.

Don't get me started on the convoluted formulas, secret calculations, and mystery awarded points to determine the "winner" of the camporee.  Funniest thing was at all the assemblies, etc the only ones talking were the OA adults, they had actual Scouts standing there but none of them we (I guess??) deemed worthy to be in charge.

Guess with all their WB and OA training they missed the whole youth led stuff

22 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

@69RoadRunner, your camporees sound similar to ours (the ones outside of our district, that is).  All units crowded together by decree, though there are plenty of woods and other open spaces to camp.  Adults acting as SPL and PLs, with all of the scouts cooking together under one dining fly.  Clueless people being loud during quiet hours. 

Then we add the dynamic of WBers, be they on the staff or self appointed, directing the troops and crews as if they were all cub dens under their control....

It's no surprise camporee participation is dropping like a stone around the BSA.  At least the councils I've been in.  Fun factor is nearly zero.

Added:  I'm not a jambo person either.  I'd rather camp in the middle of the nowhere.

 

 

I came to one council one to do an event only, was surprised that in an 1,800 acre reservation they had the troops all corralled in the big field when there were acres (literally) and acres of land they could have used.  There was another whole camp they didn't use.  Looked like some sort of really bad festival.  Each troop have like 100 SF and the next troop guidelines were right there.

Not sure what the thinking is for these

11 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Please note that we have denoted all uniform police to insignia dorks. Use that term in all future posts.

We have started wearing red epaulettes, Eagle mentor pins, and multiple temporary patches just to tweak the UP...sorry ID.  Granted they will need to come find us in the woods, but our spirit is there

3 hours ago, 69RoadRunner said:

Please don't be like the Woodbadgers who see it as a justification to be condescending to non-Woodbadgers.  I encountered a few of these types at Camporees.  

Easy solution - keep activities at the unit level, avoid the WB snobs AND the uniform police

24 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

The article I read including photo of EBOR.

https://patch.com/new-york/southampton/young-woman-takes-next-step-eagle-scout-rank-despite-pushback

"Those present for her Board of Review were NOW-NYC President Sonia Ossorio, Scout Leader Jim Nedelka, Assemblymember Harvey Epstein, NOW-NYC Board Chair, Judi Polson, and Taylor Abbruzzese, MSW, she said."

 

Not to be all technical, pretty sure some of the basics were not covered.  Maybe the middle on, they all looked over 21, not sure that have an understanding of the rank.

- if conducted at the unit level, at least one district or council representative, who is not affiliated with the unit, must serve as a member. If the unit requests it, more than one may do so.  

- There shall be no fewer than three and no more than six members, all at least 21 years old. They need not be on an advancement committee or registered with the Boy Scouts of America, but they must have an understanding of the rank and the purpose and importance of the review. This holds true for Eagle boards of review held in any unit, whether troop, crew, or ship.

- A board of review shall not occur until after the local council has verified the application. In the case of a board of review under disputed circumstances, the council must verify all the information that is not in dispute before the board of review is scheduled

7 hours ago, yknot said:

I'm just wondering if the problem is that they can no longer get liability insurance. I know they were fighting with their insurers who were balking. Bankrupt or not, if you don't have insurance, I don't think you can operate. That could leave all of us nowhere. Anyone know more about insurance than I do and have a learned opinion? 

Travelers listed the extension of the statute of limitations in New York as an exposure on their 10Q  (that is a quarterly report mandated by the United States federal Securities and Exchange Commission, to be filed by publicly traded corporations recently, not sure if that is specifically related to coverage they carry on BSA or possibly other youth / religious groups

1 hour ago, walk in the woods said:

Golfing, I'll probably go golfing.  Or maybe camping with friends just for fun.  Maybe guitar lessons.  

Now there's some cash outlay....golfing.  $500 for clubs (yeah I know cheap set), $50 for green fees, $20 for a dozen balls...not to mention fees at the 19th hole

Personally...will hike off into the sunset remembering the good times, content I provided the best program I was able to for the youth in the local unit.

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

I would like a copy of my CRA report  and any other information the BSA uses to determine my membership qualification. From the form, only MN or OK residents are provided this courtesy due to their state laws. 

 

Good luck with that

Just curious how this was marketed?  I literally get every e-mail possible it seems from the District, Council, etc.  Nothing from Council on this and nothing it seems on the Council Website or Social Media

Is Anti-Bullying one the 8 sorry...now apparently myriad aims of Scouting?

5 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:

I'm on the $49 train. We currently have a poll going on our office. 

Well let's do the math

2,500,000 (Youth / Leaders / All in / Rounded up for ease of math) @ $33 = $82,500,000

less 525,000 LDS folks departing (yes yes I know, they may not have paid the full fees, lot of neat deals made, but let's press on)

1,975,000 (remaining) @ $33 = $65,175,000

Basic projected shortfall of $17,325,000 OR $8.77 per remaining participant to cover.  That does not factor in the insurance increase, Summit Bechtel Reserve Tax, Scouting Professional Pension shortfalls, liability to abuse cases holdback, and a myriad of other financial woes hanging around out there.

$49 may be the number

That would be close to $97MM in revenue

4 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I can not speak for everyone, but $100 recharter fee is a deal breaker for me,  I have a Bear, I have a daughter who I am working on creating a Scouts BSA Troop in town, I am a leader as is my wife.  We are not paying $400 a year just to send to National.  

The question will be, or National will try to push, is what is that breaking point?  Is it $50, is it $60??  When will the frogs in the water in the slowly warming pot say "Wow, it's getting HOT" and jump out of the pot?

20 minutes ago, Buggie said:

My council is notorious for losing paperwork. Most often, it isn't lost per se. More that the form is lacking some information or something is incomplete or not checked off, so instead of communicating the situation back to the unit/individual, they toss it and you have to figure it out months later and submit new paperwork. And likewise, even when it is received and processed, that isn't always updated on the right systems. Add the fact that some committees are horrible at following the status of things online and you can have situations where a leader is not official registered for over a year, even after paying rechartering etc. 

So ask me how I feel this whole re-do of background checks are going to go? My troop wasn't aware it was going to happen and as of last week, they didn't have a plan for a mass collection of the forms etc. I can see units having big problems with lost background checks. 

Agree on the incomplete.  As a unit we take the Eagle applications to the office, (pre-EBOR) then hang around until completed.  We review them prior and even so, there is sometimes a date that does not work out right.  We correct it right there.

If we weren't there, I can see that application being put aside, e-mails sent (maybe), etc etc and it getting buried

6 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

the math that units are working through now is sobering.  

The sobering part may be all the units that have NOT begun working through the math.  They got the note but are assuming it will be another $10 - $12 increase.

Suppose you are a NEW unit, just bee bopping along, planning for next year fun and adventures, etc etc.  You know the fee is $33 now, you've got 10 Scouts and maybe 6 leaders, so you have the $528 ready, possibly hedged about $160 for the increase.  BUT WAIT - you will actually need (worst case) $1,600 or an additional $1,072 in total.  This will be a shock to the system.  

Also if it does go to worst case, now new Scouts will need to pony up a big chunk.  If you join Tigers with your young-un, and want to be a leader, that will be maybe $200.  More if there are Unit dues.  Will be tough.  Family Scouting will be replaced by Ghost Leaders.  We'll sign up the minimum, everyone else is a visiting parent.

25 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

I've heard nothing in our council except this:  "it really doesn't matter how high the fee is, scouting is still a bargain."

While I agree in theory, in real life it isn't going to work that way.  Families are already squeezing budgets to the brink.   For many, scouting might be the first thing jettisoned in the coming months.

We are supposed to recharter around the first weekend of November.  Concern is we will not know the fee until maybe a week prior.  I know they have said we will hear something about 10/23, but that is the earliest.  Our unit has about 100 Scouts and Leaders.  Currently that is maybe $3,300 for recharter.  If the fee goes to (and this is worst case) $100 per Scout (*Hey - still a bargain!!) we will need to somehow come up with another $6,700.  Many families may decide not to continue.  Will take a minute to sort all of this out and determine a path forward.

Not good planning at all.  Between the UNKNOWN FEE and the REVISED BACKGROUND CHECK FORM and the DEPARTURE OF THE LDS UNITS my assumption is that CSE Surbaugh's Bonus and those of the National Staff is clearly tied to how many leave the program 2019 to 2020

51 minutes ago, Calion said:

I find it very odd that BSA seems to provide very little guidance on how to start new units. Isn’t one of the most important jobs of the Scout Executive to work to start new Scouting units?

Nope, the Scout Executive of the Council is there to raise money first, insure no bad issues make it to the press, meet their own goals for their bonus plan.  Waaay down the list is start new Scouting units.  The local DE is more in tuned to that effort.  The SE (or CEO in many councils) would not be bothered with that.

Main help should be the district volunteer staff, but that effectiveness varies widely from district to district.

3 hours ago, Jackdaws said:

Do you really think anyone ever really reads what we type on these surveys?

 

 

 

Only if it fits the already decided upon agenda

9 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

I for one would very much like the G2SS be a one-pager that says, use common sense, talk to your parents, follow the oath and law.  But, it doesn't.  It's however many hundred pages with inclusions by reference, appendicies, and pictures with circles and arrows.  Since that's what we have to work with, we'd like them to be clear and consistent.  Here on this board you have what I'm going to assume is an honest question asked by a typical scouter.  The responses to that question are showing some confusion with the wording of the various documents and web pages and local practices.  Nobody wants more documentation, but a simple answer would be awful nice.  

Does overnighter mean just one night?  

It's a yes or no question.  So, how bout you add some value and answer it.

Didn't you mean - 

Twenty-seven 8-by-10 color glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was, to be used as a Guide to Safe Scouting – even including some aerial photography.

Sometimes the large industrial washers and dryers do a good job.  I have washed some of my synthetic bags that way.  Did a down one hand wash and tumbled at the laundry

Read Green Bar Bill Hillcourt's books.  That will help