Some other KPI (Key Performance Indicators) you may want to consider

• Number of Scouts lost on outings last quarter and actively found
• Number of Scouts lost on outings last quarter that you did not look for but who seemed to have turned up anyway
• Scouts left at gas / food stops last quarter while driving to or from outings
• Number of rain jackets forgotten at last outing with rain (can also be expressed as a percentage)
• Number of class A shirts misplace that seem to have magically been found 
• Number of items "stolen" on an outing last quarter that were "found" in the correct backpack
• Amount of trash and debris (needs to be in pounds) left in vehicles used for transit to outings
• Amount of clothing and other personal items (needs to be in pounds) left unclaimed after last quarters outings
• Number of propane cylinders deemed empty yet seemed to work when actually connected properly to the stove
• Number of times troop SPL has explained what the 3 pot cleaning method is (expressed as average times per outing)

4 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Would you be willing to say more about this? 

Well, in many cases it is subtle.  You can't really address this or you are "not supportive", so there is no real alternative other than to be disgruntled.  

- We have seen at camp the female troops request, dare I say demand, that certain bath houses be "female only".  Note these bathhouses are all setup with multiple locking single rooms in them, all open to the outside

- There have been requests at camp for some activities to be female only at times (water skiing, climbing wall to name a few), yet the narrative is we are all Scouts, so why the request for special consideration?

- Male scouts have been admonished by Girl troop leaders for taking roads / paths near the girls sites and told these are female only areas, again, the narrative is we are all Scouts, so why the demand for special consideration?

- At the camp we attend troops frequently share sites, some of the Girl troops have demanded not to share with a boy troop, and it has been acquiesced to, and in some cases the Girl troop got their own site, crowding other troops

- Have seen leaders from Girls troops demand additional spaces for their Scouts in horseback riding classes since this is what girls joined to do so BSA should be accommodating

- There have been the multiple first female Eagle, quickest female Eagle news releases over the last year, guess the boys earning Eagle are less now?

- There have been the multiple celebrations for 5 years of females joining Scouts, yet there are boy troops that 75 - 100 years old and no celebration.  Guess the boys are just here now and we celebrate the girls only.

- My Scouts saw the "Golden Eagle" term and were curious what that was.  Explained it was a girl who earned the GSUSA Gold Award and also the Eagle rank.  Their response, so they are being recognized for something we (the boys) are not able to do?

- Have seen on several forums questions as to why there is no Gold Award knot for BSA and Girls should be able to wear that on uniforms.  Not sure what awards from other organizations should be worn on BSA uniforms, maybe some Scouts can wear their varsity letters and National Honor Society pins?

Vanity project pure and simple.

4 hours ago, yknot said:

Hopefully we'll hear something about what he has been doing other than making videos for the past six months which, while good, haven't resulted in any visible action so far. 

The videos seem to be all consuming.  At the end of the day we (The BSA) needs to either 1) Get more members 2) Right size the service / council end.

The main issue with the BSA and lack of membership was visible when the decision was made to allow girls into the Scouts BSA / Cubs.  During the Townhall video Michael Surbaugh (CSE at the time) basically said they needed members, they were out of ideas on how to grow membership, so this was the plan.  That was an incredibly telling admission.  That those that run and lead the program have NO IDEA how to get youth into the program.  Plenty of ways to lay blame, but NO IDEA on how to grow the organization.

That admission is really the crux and seems to be playing out.  I suspect that membership for 2023, when presented, will be down under 850K.  Last one out remember to extinguish the campfire

22 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

So the question is, Do units support the council, or council supports the units?

Do we raise money to have scouting OR do we have scouting to enable folks to raise money.

Reminder that SCOUTERS in the units have different goals and objectives than the PROFESSIONALS and COUNCIL Scouters

Scouter in the units are there for the youth, to work providing a fun program for the youth, to develop the youth in leadership and maturity, to make sure there is a game with a purpose, to make sure youth are engaged in a rewarding experience.

Professionals are there (IMHO) to raise money to support their compensation which hires more professionals to raise more money for overhead; rinse, lather, repeat.  Looking at the job description for most of our council DE's the focus is on MONEY.  Was at an event celebrating an anniversary for a troop and the Field Director judged success for scouting in the area on money raised.

If the Professional troupe could raise money and not have any actual pesky Scouts, they would be ecstatic.  Just raise money on the nostalgic memory of Scouting in the bygone era.

Our troop does nothing with the council or district, no real value there.  We do attend the camp as it is run well.  Last camporee was maybe 2010 for us as Scouts thought it was lame.  Same for leaders and RT, etc, no value.

I do honestly wonder what the DE for our district does for 40 hours per week.  We really have no idea as we never see him and no value is brought by him.  We had one question about the new recharter process and concerns with UMC, got a really snotty response, so said see ya.

On 3/6/2024 at 7:12 AM, scoutldr said:

We once had a Commissioner show up at a B/G to present the Pack Charter.  I am not exaggerating, he looked like a North Korean General.  He was a long time Scout/Scouter and was wearing EVERY possible award that had ever been presented to him, from the Bobcat pin to his youth MB sash, OA sash, medals, neck ribbons, etc.  

14 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

Yall went way off rail.  I'm not talking about merit badges, rural neighborhoods or any of those right turn issues.  I'm talking about specified areas and events that are organized and encouraged at "Official National Scouting Events" like Jamboree and NOAC.   I fail to see how this cultivates DEI.

 

I saw this on Scouting.org which plays into your point

https://www.scouting.org/program-updates/5th-anniversary-of-girls-in-scouts-bsa-survey/

I would agree that while an effort like this is no doubt noble and I would presume well intentioned, that they want ALL girls but only a statistical sample of boys, sets up a 2 tier system.  Obviously they are looking for the girls experience, but have they done a survey of boys on their experiences?  Any time I see events that are specifically for one gender or the other, that seems to defeat the inclusivity goal.

One can also look at the registered leaders requirements for unit leadership on an outing to see that DEI is not really the same DEI in all cases.  For a male troop, any two leaders can fulfill the requirement.  For female troops they are required to have a female leader.  Male troop, you can have 2 moms and that is super.  Female troop, you have 2 dads and though shall not pass.

So the Scout has the project and has now moved to another unit in another council.  Assuming the Scout has transferred to the new council and unit.

• Assuming the beneficiary does not care what unit or council the Scout is active / registered with
• The Scout would need to get approval from the unit, which seems to not be an issue
• The Scout would need to get the project approved by the new district.  Likely just update the signature page and dates
• Would need to be aware of the new district processes.  Potentially the Unit Leader or CC could advise the district of the transfer. no need to go into specifics, just a better fit

While in the same district and council we have had some Scouts from troop that did not recharter continuing their Eagle journey with our unit.  2 had projects approved and we moved them in Scoutbook and they have proceeded on.  Your only wrinkle is new council and district.

16 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

To sum up the last jamboree in a word? Sucked. I visited 3 days. I had been to 2 past jamborees, one as a youth and one as staff. My 2 daughters, niece, and BIL were with the contingent. It sucked. Many parts of the “Disneyland of Scouting” were just not operational. No arena shows. Sucked. 

Were all of the rides, slides, walls, attractions ever fully opened?  Even in the big pre-covid ones in 2013 and 2017 weren't some areas not fully opened due to staffing challenges?

On 7/28/2023 at 9:11 PM, mrjohns2 said:

The BSA needs use of the Summit to offset its fixed costs at a minimum. So, 2025 is very likely? I guess the other option would be 2026. That would push NOAC to 2027, overlapping with world and not help the already anemic OA. 

That is so true.  The BSA spent waaaay to much money on the Disneyworld of Scouting and now that is a pile of debt and costs.  Not sure what the long-term solution may be but casting that site off during bankruptcy would have been a bold move.

With only 15K or so going to last Jamboree, the logistics of needing a larger than life site may be a requirement of the past.  Maybe  revisit the 1973 plan and have an East and a West Jamboree to make it easier to attend and reduce the numbers are each site.

5 hours ago, SNEScouter said:

You seem to think that financial support of the council does not support "Scouting."  That's concerning.

 

A lot of financial support in most councils seem to support the professionals and the "development" and "marketing" staff who in fact seem to only raise money so the council can do lots of things not directly related to Scouting programs and then enable them to hire more  "development" and "marketing" staff .... rinse, lather, repeat.

Remember, BSA professionals and councils firmly are in the "Scouting is around so we can raise money" column.  Most units and in the trenches volunteers naively think that "Money is raised to have Scouting".   Never forget we do not actually have the same goals.  Look at how much time of the council staff if spent raising money.

Our troop does maybe 2 / 3 backpacking outings each year.  Also we do some outings that are not exactly car camping and not exactly backpacking, maybe the campsite is less than mile from the cars.  Otherwise we are the typical Everest siege camping with trailers and sherpas, plus elephants to setup the main circus tent in camping area.  The buzz of generators and chainsaws echo through the morning air.

Back to the backpacking question on preparing and how does it work - 

• Maybe 2 actual backpacking trips per year, varying lengths of 6 - 12 miles
• Each Scout handles their own meals / food
• We have communal backpacking stoves and other "crew" gear for the trip
• The crew gear is divided up amongst the scouts
• Each trip we practice with the stoves, discuss how to purify water, and other backpack items
• Weigh packs at the trailhead and discuss what can be left / is not really needed
• Lot of hammocking on the trail

Suggestions that have worked for us

• Have a shorter one early on for the newer Scouts
• Have some instruction periods during meetings on basics
• Pick you treks based on ability, same with routes, there is one we like where we camp on a mountain top, one route up is really steep, there is another route that goes around and series of switchbacks up, we take the longer way up and the steeper descent
• Have group up points on the map, either road / stream crossings, mile markers, some specific points so the slower scouts can catch up and you are not strung out for a mile or so
• Reminder that uphill is slow and can be whiney, downhill can be slippery with gravity working against you

On 2/9/2024 at 3:05 PM, Maboot38 said:

Probably my fault, but people are focusing too much on the actual online tools. So let me back up. 

The person BELIEVES they are and WANTS TO ACT AS Committee Chair, Assistant Scoutmaster, Advancement Chair, and Unit Training Chair. They do it ALL...and when I offer to get help and have someone else take some of the responsibility, that response is "Don't take this from me, I love it!" So we are stuck with this person BEING the Troop...and it's driving people (members and leaders) away. 

So it seems my question about whether or not the are allowed to hold all those positions is that they are NOT. At least according to a 8 year old document.

Now no idea what to DO about it. 

Have a celebration, congratulate them on their years of service, give them a nice plaque, note all the things they currently do, then name all the folks that are taking over these responsibilities, have a cake, take photos, and name them committee member emeritus and let them know they have earned the time off and rest.

That or shove them off a mountain on the next outing, though there is a lot of paperwork involved in the mountain option (don't ask me how I know), the celebration solution is waaaay tidier.  Plus there's cake.

To refresh everyone's memory, this is 9b

(b) On any of these camping experiences, you must do TWO of the following, only with proper preparation and under qualified supervision.
(1) Hike up a mountain, gaining at least 1,000 vertical feet.
(2) Backpack, snowshoe, or cross-country ski for at least 4 miles.
(3) Take a bike trip of at least 15 miles or at least four hours.
(4) Take a nonmotorized trip on the water of at least four hours or 5 miles.
(5) Plan and carry out an overnight snow camping experience.
(6) Rappel down a rappel route of 30 feet or more.

A troop leadership group planning / doing normal outings should be able to have these occur.  As noted they can occur with the troop, lodge, summer camp, high adventure, etc.  Out troop is in the southeast, been a leader for many years, none of the scouts has ever done #5.

Now we do regular trips to the mountains so #1 happens, at least 2 "backpacking" outings annually so #2 happens, we do a kayak trip and summer camp does rafting so #4, and many scouts take climbing at camp so #6

Key is these should be part of the program and not require special planning to achieve

Just now, DuctTape said:

For how long have we here at Scouter.com advocated for required mBs to be in groups/categories of which the scout could choose?

While a good plan, just be careful to make sure the challenge and adventure is included.  In the 70's and in the skill award days you could pick from 12 and had to earn 8 for Tfoot - 1st Class.  Only required ones were First Aid and Citizenship.  You could earn Family Living, Community Living, Communications, Environment, Physical Fitness, and Conservation and do minimal outdoor stuff.

Swimming, Camping, and Cooking merit badge were not Eagle required.  Yes, you could attain Eagle Scout rank and NEVER camp, NEVER build a fire, NEVER hike.

5 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

And we are missing a great opportunity to be THE organization that puts outdoor stewardship as a core value while we are in the outdoors.  We dabble in it... to get requirements signed off...

True - oh so true.  When we are out and about during the outing closing etc leadership always tries to bring up that the state parks, WMA's, National Forest, National Battlefields etc are preserved areas and it takes support to keep them.  We mention that as Scouts we may have have camped / hike at the same place.  We need to do what we can to help preserve and promote the public lands.

Outdoor Code is more than 27 words and Leave No Trace needs to apply any time you are out in the woods.  BSA should be the experts in this and SMEs (Subject Matter Experts).

On 1/31/2024 at 11:44 AM, Eagledad said:

I here what you are saying, I also always had balanced growth of both youth and adult membership.

My nature is problem solving areas where performance is lacking. Whether in my job, home, even scouts, I like to evaluate and search to improve performance. And I have done a lot, A LOT, performance evaluation over the years of why the BSA is loosing membership. And it comes down to National changing policies for the purpose of increasing membership. The changes made in the 70's basically shifted adventure part of the program to more focus on advancement. When you look at the policy changes  the since the 70s, many are small, but clear shifts from adventure toward advancement, with the bigger purpose of increasing leadership.

Don't underscore or short sell the seismic changes BSA National determined were the next best thing in the 1970's.  When incorporated (skill awards were going to be awesome) BSA Membership 1971 - 4.8 million, 1981 - 3.2 million.  That is losing a 1/3 of your members in 10 years.  The organization has never recovered from the decision switch to focus on advancement and not adventure.  

After the great change in the mid-70's it was possible to earn Eagle Scout and never swim, never camp and basically never go outside.  If you were on a hike and got lost the advise IN THE SCOUT HANDBOOK was to ask a police officer for directions.  Urban Scouting at it's best.

For those of us as Scouts then there was a hierarchy among Eagle Scouts, were you an OLD Eagle or a NEW Eagle?  Those of use that squeaked in by 12/31/1973 had the swagger of being the OLD Eagle.  If your unit leader was on point, they dug out an OLD Eagle patch for you.

With the MBO focus now no one EVER goes and talks with successful units.  The unit has 75% retention, Scouts stay until they age out, 30 nights camping per year, engaged adults, nope, no need to go see what they are doing.  We've got popcorn, camp cards, FOS to worry about.  Hey, come to roundtable for no discernible reason or value.

BSA needs to cut Cubs to 3 years, focus on adventure, and do more benchmarking for units, and stop trying to be the swiss army knife of youth organizations.  You know what travel baseball does well, they play baseball.  We go to market with BSA we are outdoors, no wait leadership development, no wait STEM, no wait life skills, no wait service, not wait hobbies, no wait [insert flavor of the month]

If there was any actual marketing for BSA we could focus on adventure, and your youth having many experiences.  We do outdoors good, that is the laboratory, stick with that.

Remember, those of us that work and support scouting as volunteers (GROUP A) DO NOT have the same goals as the professionals and their selected board folks (GROUP B) that run Scouting.

Group A wants to bring a vibrant program to youth.  We work hard to provide program and have to work within the BSA bureaucracy to make that happen.  We feel it is worth the struggle because of the positive changes we can see in participants lives.  Give us a campfire, a hike, and Scouts making their own decisions and we are happy.

Group B is only concerned with how to monetize the program and raise money to support their salaries.  Very much like an MLM group.  If they could raise money for Scouts and not have any actual Scouts, that would be their happy place.  Though, they would miss belittling and ignoring volunteers.  Anything that helps the units is not their concern.  Raising money; FOS, popcorn, camp cards, lavish luncheons for big donors; that's what they want to focus on and is their reason for being.

Once you understand that the groups DO NOT have the same goals or reasons for being, the answers to questions on why such foolish decisions are made become clear.  Cubs cannot camp for more than 1 night, oh wait, maybe they can.  All adults have to be registered to be on an outing, oh wait, if you are a parent with your kid on a cub outing forget that.  And so many more.

BSA National DOES NOT CARE and DOES NOT PLAN TO CARE about the customer experience of the volunteers and the units.  If they are hard or impossible to deal with, THEY DO NOT CARE.

Group A wants more units and more participants, more challenges out in the field.  Group B wants to raise more money.

If you don't believe me, I submit THE SUMMIT as exhibit A.  Largest vanity project ever in the BSA and an underlying pin in the financial issues.  A white elephant that will never be utilized or come close to generating revenue over expenses.

We try to listen to feedback and conversation on the way back from outings.  For planning our unit has a list of outings by month for the last 25 or so years.  Helps see where and when.  Scouts do the annual planning and then outdoor chair review.  Typically we can make most happen.  Main things are sometimes time to drive someplace and costs.  

Sometimes I have been surprised on what they selected.  In most cases that has turned out well.  Leaders work with the Scouts on specific activities during the trip.  We were camping near a city with large historic downtown.  We split them into patrols and did a photo scavenger hunt, things like that.  Also we get feedback during BOR.  During planning many years ago they asked if we had to attend the district camporee, we advised their choice, so we have not done that lately.  Mostly they found it (and I quote) lame.

Try to focus on activities and adventure.  Last year, 2023, we did Trip to beach and national seashore island, backpacking in mountain, wide game, putt putt tourney, lock-in, summer camp, trip to State Park and gorge and waterfalls, boating and tubing, kayaking, fishing weekend at mt lake, hiking and exploring mountains with AOL visit.  All requested and run by Scouts

On 1/19/2024 at 1:04 PM, AirForceMom said:

Hello. I understand your concerns however as a mother of a boy that has been this troop for many years.  He just turned 18 and is still in high school.  It is true if he joins as an adult he cannot socialize outside of the scout meetings, text, play video games, etc.  This doesn't make any sense to me. Is this true?  

When I called my council they said the position is college reservist and he can do everything a regular scout can do (except badges) and has to do the online training.  No one mentioned that anything about not being able to socialize outside of scouts. He goes to school with these boys.  

Thank you

So the YPT rules state - One-on-one contact between adult leaders and youth members is prohibited both inside and outside of Scouting.

So a Scout who turns 18 is considered an Adult Leader (when registered), so this would apply.  Not saying I agree, but I am not claiming to be a lawyer.  As they would have to register to attend an overnight outing, seems like a trap.

Same thing happens ALL the time in the real world.  I have some Scouts from the troop that live on my street.  Family and social friends in most cases.  Their dad is working on a project, sends Johnny down for some item or tool, we go down the workshop, get the needed gear.  By the book a YPT violation.  Had one call me as his car would not start, parents not home.  Car in the garage, rolled up and we worked on it.  Had to clean contacts, etc.  But it was just and I "alone" in the garage.  By the book a YPT violation.

Obviously the rule has a background, but, when rules like this one are in place, and seem to be overreaching it impacts the actual validity of the program,  Same with 18 year old, registered so he can participate through his HS time, which we should WELCOME and not discourage.

https://fb.watch/pCdpL5TwOv/

Good video from the US Army - 194th Armored Brigade on the troops visit to Fort Moort

So on things we could never do now, in the early 80's the only requirement for climbing and rappelling was money for equipment.  You could call REI in Seattle (at the time you had to call 8 - 5 PST) and they would ship you what you wanted.

We tied swiss harnesses and off we went.  Kids had a great time.  In the summer after we climbed the troop would go down the hill and swim in a river to cool off.  

Once we were rappelling on a large face (175' - 200').  When I went down to be the base the length of rope was fine.  As the young scouts came down, as they did not weight as much, the rope ended about 15' above the end.  It was a slope, so they came off the blue line and we caught them as they jogged down the slope.  Good times.

Going to assume that would be frowned up nowadays

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Here's another one...

In the early 80's there was a US Army Ranger program for youth at Mt Yonah in Dahlonega, GA. (It is still going, but much different today... https://www.nega-bsa.org/Ranger)

We had a few of our older Scouts attend.  Of course, they became immediate "experts" in climbing and rappelling 😜 

They wanted to showcase their new-found coolness, and the venue our Troop selected was our annual Scout Show.  We worked with the fairground managers and our local power company, and sank four telephone poles into the ground there.  Then we got the lumber, hammer and nails, and built a 30 foot rappelling tower.

It was the hit of the Scout Show.  We had an assembly line of Scouts helping people tie a Swiss seat harness. (A requirement only recently removed from Climbing Merit Badge.  And, no, there was no Climbing MB back then.) Visitors would then climb up ladders to the top, and rappell down a doubled-up Army-issue twisted nylon rope, with a single carabiner.  No helmets.

A few of us demonstrated Australian rappell.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAnxYKUVNVI&ab_channel=SkillsforClimbing

(That's not a video of us, of course.)

Again, thank the good Lord, no one got hurt.  But, knowing what I know now about safe climbing practices... we were dangerous, and put a lot of folks at risk.

There still is a BSA Ranger program run by NEGA over the summer at Frank D Merrill and Mt Yonah.  Had scouts attend over the last several years

https://www.nega-bsa.org/Ranger

3 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Dec 12, 2023 Forbes brief interview:

Roger Krone’s Vision: Transforming Boy Scouts Of America Through Technology And Innovation

https://www.forbes.com/sites/heatherwishartsmith/2023/12/12/roger-krones-vision-transforming-boy-scouts-of-america-through-technology-and-innovation/?sh=123aac942ca3

Speaking of technology, I'm still waiting for that two-way fireside chat with unit volunteers in the field.

Well, we see where his focus is 

Krone highlights the importance of data management, proposing the migration of member information to a cloud-based data lake and mining that information (no doubt to monetize) to connect with BSA alumni who may not have been contacted in decades. With nearly 100 million alumni, the organization aims to use technology for targeted communication, reconnecting with former Scouts, and fostering philanthropic engagements. “Technology will help us find those people, communicate with them, update them on what’s going on in Scouting and connect them with philanthropic interests and fundraising,” (So focused on money had to say it twice) Krone said. Data analytics will be employed to gain valuable insights into membership trends, enabling more effective and targeted programming across different councils. (no doubt to monetize)

As usual, main focus will be raising money.  No mention in the article about growing the program and expanding the membership.

51 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

Well, I was a District Training Chair in the 90s and taught that YP course with the VHS tapes.  We were directed to tell people to NEVER report suspected abuse to the authorities.  ONLY report directly to the SE, who "knew what to do and how to report it."...and NEVER discuss it with anyone else...when you call the Council Office, tell whomever answered the phone to "put me through to the SE for a YP matter" and he would respond immediately.  That never sat right with me, being the spouse of a school nurse who was a "mandatory reporter" and knew the process.  

I recall that directive back in the day.  The test would advise who do you call first and SE was the answer, which in my mind was incorrect.  Coming from corporate world we involved law enforcement and corporate HR with any issues that would even remotely appear to violate the law.  As a site GM my role was to handle the issue but also get out of the line of investigation to eliminate any conflict of interest.

First call to the SE seemed to be first step in downplaying the issue.  I never had to deal with a reportable issue, but my first call would have been local police.

On reporting, it is brought up occasionally, but we must remember the times have changed.  When I was a DE back in early 80's, neighboring district had an issue.  None of the parents wanted the police involved, nobody wanted to go on record and testify, accuse, etc.  They just wanted the guy gone.  We were aware of the allegation, removed the volunteer from his position, and advised National, but that was about as far as we could go.  If the council had been the accuser not sure we would have been able to get the investigation moving along.  Without corroboration would have opened up Council and staff to defamation claims.  Not saying the way we handled was the most effective way, it was really the process back 40+ years ago