gblotter

7 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

IMO the rush was/is the World Jamboree at Summit 2019.

I don't disagree. But if they wanted to make a splash, why not use the venue of World Jamboree 2019 to announce a fully-baked program instead of this botched rollout. The manipulative surveys, the deceptive information meetings, the predetermined outcome, and the lack of details (rest assured it will be amazing) ... I'm trying to think how BSA National could have actually done this *worse*.

16 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

And I think the BSA will be sensitive to helping boy only troops have access to resources.

I'm being realistic, not cynical ...

In their rush to make an announcement about girls in Scouting, I don't think BSA National leadership had even begun to think through the myriad of issues such as these. Forget about half-baked - they haven't even put it in the oven yet. Why announce something as significant as a new girls program when they can't even describe what it will look like? They are making this up as they go along. It is a move of desperation, and it is a reflection of their incompetence (in my opinion).

Just now, WisconsinMomma said:

Maybe a boy troop doesn't want to go to a camp with girls so they choose to do a summer camp at a state park or do another kind of adventurous trip.

And thus the boys suffer (i.e. they withdraw from summer camp, opt-out) because BSA wants to focus on the needs of girls.  See what I'm saying?

Just now, WisconsinMomma said:

Yep, boys and girls might go to those same things.  I am not sure how terrible that is.   Is it terrible?  

For a co-ed merit badge class - probably not so terrible.

For a co-ed week at summer camp - that would change the entire experience (and not in a good way). If BSA adopted your earlier suggestion to have separate designated weeks for girl troops and boy troops - that provides a workable summer camp solution in my opinion.

16 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

girl troops do not necessarily take away from boy troops

True - until that boy troop goes to a BSA summer camp, or a Merit Badge Midway, or a Camporee, or any other Scouting function outside his specific troop.

2 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

And like I said, considering how passionate some folks are here about this change, I’m amazed more people aren’t leaving.

I'm amazed as well. The actual fallout will likely be seen over a period of years.

Just now, EmberMike said:

Despite me being told to leave, I’m not telling anyone that. 

But you thought it.

4 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

I was told often that if I don’t like the policies, I should go elsewhere. I did. And now the shoe is on the other foot. 

Apparently, a Scout is vindictive.

1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Do you support females in Scouting, and do you support female Scout leaders? 

@WisconsinMomma I think your avatar well-frames our differences: Cubmaster vs Scoutmaster.

My son had a great experience in Cub Scouts. He earned more pins and beltloops and badges than anyone in our Pack history. He had mostly female Den leaders except for Webelos. I participated only as a dad - not in Cub leadership. I am extremely grateful for all his Cub leaders (male and female) who understood the Cub program far better than I ever will. And to be honest, I don't care a bit about including girls in separate Dens or Packs in the Cub Scout program. That would have made very little difference in the Cub experience of my son.

Do I feel the same about including girls in Boy Scouts? Are 13 year old boys the same as 8 year old boys? Heck no!

Boy Scouts is not just Cub Scouts for older kids, The program changes in major ways - and for good reason. Developmentally, boys and girls diverge significantly as tweens and young teens. Reaching them and mentoring them during this critical time is definitely not a "one solution" approach - in Scouting and otherwise. Moving into later teens, the equation changes dramatically yet again.

These should be self-evident truths to anyone who is the parent of a teen or who has ever been a teenager themselves. But apparently not. When we ignore or dismiss these truths, it is the boys who suffer most - they simply withdraw, opt-out. Boys are the ones failing in current society - the "War on Boys" statistics are well-known and oft-repeated. Yet we continue to focus only on meeting the needs of girls (example: this decision). Gender-separate sports teams now become the last refuge to reach boys of this age. That probably works fine for my son who can't get enough of sports, but I worry for so many other boys who found a home in Scouting when sports were out of their reach. We'll come looking for them immersed in the video game culture.

1 minute ago, WisconsinMomma said:

... but I think you should hold back from sharing strong anti-female or anti-coed views with your troop

Why don't you ask my three daughters if I am anti-female before you start slinging that slur.

I am as heavily engaged in their parenting and development as I am for my son. However, I am experienced enough to appreciate the differences between boys and girls when it comes to a unique program like Scouting. And those differences don't just disappear because of politically-correct derision.

35 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

I am not sure of your role in Scouting, but if you have extremely anti-co-ed feelings you may want to step back from spreading those opinions among the youth.

Yes, I am definitely anti-coed - no doubt about it.  You will get your wish soon enough. 2018 be my last year as a registered Scouter. After 10+ years as Scoutmaster (two terms), and service at the district level, I will no longer poison youth with my opinions.

BSA obviously wants to appeal to a different kind of Scout and a different kind of Scouter. It is clear that national leadership does not care what I (or anyone else, for that matter) think on this topic. I will step aside to make room for the changes that will be forced through regardless.

16 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

BSA is going coed, that decision has been made.

Yes - I know. I keep hoping I will wake up from this nightmare.

29 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Only a few remember whatever it was that happened.

Frankly, that is what terrifies me about all this.

I received my Eagle in 1974, so I lived it. The word crisis is not too strong. I have been reading an excellent book on BSA history that includes a chapter about the debacles of the 1970s. I may quote a few paragraphs for additional perspective. Back then, BSA still had sufficient numbers to survive as an organization after the mass exodus. Such losses today would end the movement entirely.

3 minutes ago, cocomax said:

Maybe BSA has been doing a lot of things correctly over the past years to have so much higher membership numbers than Canada.

Or another way of putting it ... maybe Scouts Canada has really been screwing up by adopting a co-ed Scouting program.

3 hours ago, cyphertext said:

I don't think the boys in your troop are strange.  In this area, I would not be surprised to see boys opt out of the program when the girls are added.

This is an entirely expected result. With politically-correct shaming, adult Scouters may be brow-beaten to ignore the obvious developmental differences between boys and girls. But that kind of coercion will not keep boys from just opting-out of Scouting altogether (as they are already doing in other parts of society). I predict Scouting will lose two boys for every new girl that enrolls. In the end, BSA will be a ghost of its former self - following in the disastrous path of co-ed Scouting in Canada. BSA National is rolling the dice, and the results on membership will be devastating - similar to the catastrophe of BSA's social experimentation during the 1970s when millions of boys walked away from Scouting in protest. Has it been so long that we can't remember and learn from these past mistakes?

1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Regarding camp,  I wonder if a solution might be for camps to have all-girls' weeks set aside for female troops or patrols. So perhaps 5 weeks of summer are for males and one week is for females.

This is the only summer camp option that I can see working. There will be a host of problems mixing genders during a week at summer camp (restrooms is the easiest one to solve). I am repelled by the idea of taking my troop to a co-ed summer camp. Even if I forced the issue, our Scouts would likely refuse to go. Frankly, these boys view summer camp as a week to get away from their sisters - not compete with them during a song-fest.

I have attended summer camp (multiple times) with my daughters, and I've even led some of their group hikes. I have also attended Boy Scout camp many times. The two experiences are vastly different (as anyone would expect from young teenage boys and young teenage girls). My son would hate the favorite camp activities of my daughters (and vice-versa). I can't believe this is not self-evident to everyone.

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

From a high level national volunteer on facebook, BSA is now reconsidering a separate all girls program, and is now looking at separate girls patrols in existing troops.

BSA National Leadership = Bumbling, clueless, deceitful liars. What an embarrassment.

Check out the Bronxville Boy Scout Cabin belonging to Troop 2 in Bronxville, NY (a 100 year old troop!).

Complete with cool stone fireplace.

See http://www.bronxvilletroop2.com

7 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Is it still worth our time and effort, or are the frustrations at the "throw in the towel" point?

That is exactly where I am at with these latest changes. After 10+ years as Scoutmaster and service at the district level, I will exit Scouting at the end of this year - 2018 will be my last year as a registered Scouter. I will do so with sadness but not bitterness.

I could swallow the prior decisions about gays and trans. Those decisions were made to avoid the distractions of lawsuits and allow BSA to focus on what really matters, but in reality they do very little to change the fabric of Scouting and how things actually operate on a practical level.

The decision to admit girls is a move of desperation, and it will change everything. Scouting will function differently in very fundamental ways. Anyone who has both daughters and sons (as I do) knows this to be true. A decade from now, I predict BSA will be nearly unrecognizable from what we know today (similar to the dismantling of Scouting that has happened in Canada). I'm just grateful my son got to experience the Scouting program in its fullness before this grand unraveling. He has had a truly marvelous ride, and it has been a thrill for me to be a part of his journey.

But, no - I won't be sticking around for this self-destruction - too painful to watch.

A heartwarming story.

Troop 2 from Bronxville, NY recently awarded the Eagle Scout rank to 96 Year Old Eugene Cerniglia. Eugene completed all the requirements for the rank of Eagle Scout while he was a youth, but when the time came for his board of review most of his troop had enlisted in the military. He petitioned to receive his Eagle Scout in the 1960s and 1980s with no success. Recently, when he came across his Scouting materials he made one last attempt. By providing evidence corroborated by public sources and attending Scout meetings for several months, Eugene was awarded Eagle in January 2018, one month before his 97th birthday. Troop 2 claims Eugene is the oldest Eagle Scout ever (likely correct).

Court of Honor video here: http://www.bronxvilletroop2.com/World-Record-Eagle-Court-of-Honor.html

On 2/4/2018 at 7:29 AM, EmberMike said:

How many innocent men have been caught up in this? Anyone know? I have yet to hear of one.

Ask the Duke lacrosse team.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/duke-lacrosse-rape-espn-30-for-30_us_56e07e33e4b065e2e3d486f7

2 hours ago, Pselb said:

And this is the trend you will see in the future.  That is why the girls will take over leadership with their focused attention to detail and the boys will let them because it's easier to follow and enjoy the fun of no responsibility.  This will extend well into the high school years.  Unless it is segregated, such as sport activities, the girls seem to do better at running the other school clubs and activities.  I'm sure with the recent media focus, this will occur in Boy Scouts as well.

All true, but it extends further. As the girls begin to occupy major troop leadership positions and the boys step back, Scouting will become known as primarily a girl organization. Then the boys flee altogether in favor of gender-segregated sports teams and others masculine pursuits. This is the path that Scouts Canada has followed. After going co-ed in 1998, Scouts Canada encountered dramatic membership declines, and it is now primarily a girl movement. Summer camp facilities are for sale across Canada. Welcome to the future.

3 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Actually according to some national level volunteers, the "separate but equal" Girls' Program troops is being reconsidered. The PTB are now looking into coed troops with segregated patrols. That is what is being reported on Talk About Scouting facebook group.

And why am I not surprised that the clueless bumblers and liars at BSA National are doing this?

32 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

The tents the troop were gifted when they started back up were not taken care of properly and some were deliberately vandalized by previous Scouts in the troop.

This is the exact reason why we don't have troop tents.

26 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

If we’re a Scout, I doubt I would be doing any further fundraising for the troop.

Same - but not for the reason you stated. Vandalized tents equal wasted money.

The message of this CBS piece is clear: The Scouting movement as a boy organization is dying. The future of Scouting is girls. The demise of yet another traditional American institution (no wonder the media is so gleefully reporting it).

Benedict Surbaugh is actively promoting this message in his full-access interview with CBS.

Let's see how this works. Sales of Pontiac cars are dropping. Pontiac diehards love the brand because of storied performance cars like GTO, Firebird, and TransAm, but the new models have been unexciting sedans and even generic minivans. In desperation, the Pontiac division head (an account who never really loved cars) decides to pick customers from the dying carcass of Oldsmobile, a brand known for its retiree cruisers. In the end, both Pontiac and Oldsmobile fail even faster because of brand confusion which attracts few new customers but alienates many long-time loyalists.  Pontiac and Oldsmobile executives bail out with self-congratulatory high-fives and huge golden parachutes.