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Posts posted by gblotter

  1. 6 hours ago, skeptic said:

    they so obviously are not happy nor understand the basic tenets of Scouting

    So all those who oppose BSA's girl decision do not understand anything about Scouting?

    6 hours ago, skeptic said:

    I too get tired of the negativity a few tend to blather constantly

    Or are you just blathering?

  2. 26 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

    I know from personal experience there are nights at scout meetings where you get 20 boys coming up basically all at once with something they need and you may miss some of those.  The SM is human and most likely wants to do the right thing.  And when you have say 20 boys all wanting SM conferences, even with ASMs handling them there is only so much time in the day and I know I don't like to rush through a SM conference so you never know how long it might take.

    Big troop vs small troop. We have a few mega troops (130-150 boys) in town. Given our size of just 30 boys/3 patrols, it gives me a headache (literally) to think about scaling a program that large.

    I'm sure big troops have their benefits too, but I love the personal attention afforded by a smaller troop. Wouldn't have it any other way, actually.

  3. 3 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

    While GSUSA and BSA have a common root (Baden-Powell, in Britain) they have been diverging almost from the beginning.   They even jumped the Atlantic separately, with GSUSA arising out of Girl Guides (in the UK) which came from the Boy Scouts (in the UK).     Looking just at the history of the scout law in both organizations:  the BSA took the 9-point scout law, simplified the wording, added three additional points, and then has kept it unchanged for 100 years.   The GSUSA took the (by then) 10-point scout law and kept it essentially unchanged till 1972 and had a major revision in 1972 and yet another since then.    Until the last few years, critics of the BSA have tended to criticize it for being too conservative.   For as long as I can remember GSUSA has been critcized for being too feminist or too liberal.     The BSA program is (correct me if I am wrong) recognizably similar to that of the 1930s. ( I read an old Handbook for Scoutmasters and was impressed by the similarity between it and what I saw in the current online video training.)  The GSUSA program has changed beyond all recognition.  (Just compare the Girl Scout Handbook of 1930 with any of the current GSUSA materials.)

    If the two organizations were to have worked in close collaboration, at least one of them (or maybe both) would have had to change a lot.


    Great summary - can't argue with any of that.

    With BSA's recent left turns, perhaps the two organizations will soon find themselves closer in alignment. I expect more big decisions from BSA National in the coming years after the LDS exit. BSA will change beyond all recognition, too.

  4. 1 minute ago, Cambridgeskip said:

    I think one thing worth adding to Ian’s comments is that prior to scouting becoming coed here the scouts association traditionally had quite a strong relationship with Girl Guides. From everything I have read here it was, and indeed still is, stronger than that between BSA and GSUSA.

    In my opinion, the best solution would have been a closer collaboration between BSA and GSUSA, but not in the cards apparently. Perhaps with better leadership it could have been negotiated.

    To frame support for BSA's girl decision, some like to assert that Scouting in the US has been like Scouting in Saudi Arabia or other places that exclude girls (pretending somehow that GSUSA never existed or that they are not real Scouting). How insulting! Scouting opportunities for girls in the US go back more than a century.

  5. 10 minutes ago, ianwilkins said:

    So while in one troop in our town the leaders left en-mass, and the boys were very anti, in another the leaders switched to the new scheme with gusto, and the kids mostly went along with it.

    With the passage of time, I'm confident that everyone in BSA will be in support or at least go along with these changes ... because those opposed will leave the movement.

    Voila - problem fixed!

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  6. 35 minutes ago, TMSM said:

    Looking at the definition the word popular - can mean liked by many. This means its not a majority

    I can accept that definition. Surbaugh could just as easily say that keeping girls out of BSA has popular support. Instead of asserting popularity, I would prefer to have him honestly discuss the reality of BSA's declining membership and ask for unity and support to fix it and thereby save the movement we all love, even if some fixes may not be desirable by all. But no - we get repeated deceptions and insulting manipulations from this guy. I know - too much to ask.

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  7. 55 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

    I am beyond frustrated with Scouters calling people liars based off supposition, personal bias and no evidence.

    The only person I have called a liar is Surbaugh (because he is). Evidence abounds that he when given the opportunity for honest dialog, he repeatedly chooses to deceive and manipulate instead.

    You are frustrated by me calling Surbaugh a liar. I am frustrated by Surbaugh being a liar.

  8. Just now, malraux said:

    Would that really help retain any members that are leaving because of this, or help attract new members?

    I actually do believe that some honesty from Surbaugh would help with retention and recruiting. Resentment grows when people feel they are being manipulated. Understanding grows with honest communication.

  9. 1 minute ago, malraux said:

    Its also likely fairly regional in the different opinions, so hard for anyone to estimate its exact popularity.

    Yep. Like I said, what you see depends on where you sit.

    1 minute ago, malraux said:

    I'm also appreciative of the idea that sometimes organizations have to change even its not what a majority of its current members want.

    I have no problem with that concept. Can't Surbaugh then at least be honest about the reality of BSA's situation driving this decision? That would be a position I could respect. I cannot respect the insulting manipulations.

  10. 2 minutes ago, FireStone said:

    That's just not true. It's a popular opinion that girls should be in Scouting. How popular? I don't know. But it's not some small fringe group.

    If Surbaugh wanted to be honest (not lie), he could at least acknowledge that this was a divisive decision driven by declining membership rather than hiding behind an insulting and manipulative survey. Wouldn't some honest discussion coming from the top be refreshing for a change?

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  11. 3 minutes ago, FireStone said:

    The idea that it's "all lies" is simply not true. 

    I never said "all lies". Surbaugh is lying when he claims popular support drove the girl decision while conveniently ignoring huge resistance.

    6 minutes ago, malraux said:

    can you handle it when not everyone joins in your rage?

    Sure. What's your point?

  12. 2 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

    Calling it a minority does not make it so.

    Claiming popular support does not make it so.

    Five years should be enough time for the dust to setting on the LDS exit and judge whether Surbaugh was the savior or the executioner of BSA. I am not optimistic. BSA's current membership is not robust enough to survive another disaster like the Improved Scouting Program of the 1970s.

  13. Just now, FireStone said:

    What data says that either opinion was the minority opinion? 

    Yes - we would all like to see the data. But even if released, the survey was crafted to be so manipulative, designed to elicit only one response - any data from a survey like that would be pointless, in all reality. Can you at least give me room for rage over such an insulting process?

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  14. 6 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

    Im getting more than a little tired of hearing the 'it's all lies" refrain.

    And I'm getting more than a little tired of BSA National claiming popular support for a divisive decision when they crafted a manipulated survey and distributed it selectively and won't reveal the results.


    8 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

    it has been loud and growing in the other 80% of Scouting

    Even in the non-LDS Scouting community, support is spotty at best. The backing of a loud minority does give one claim to popular support.

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  15. 13 minutes ago, FireStone said:

    I'm honestly surprised that there isn't more support for separate books from the single-gender-scouting crowd. This supports the idea of separate troops entirely, doesn't it? A single merged book looks more like co-ed scouting.

    I am ready to criticize BSA National about many things, and I detest the decision about girls in Scouting. But I will defend separate handbooks. I support as much separation as possible.

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  16. The September-October issue of Scouting Magazine makes it clear that BSA is betting the farm on girls.

    Cover photo: Family Scouting

    Letter from CSE: Justifying girls in Scouting with claims that it was all in response to popular demand (his lies just never stop)

    Commissioner's Corner: How to welcome girls into Scouting

    Recruiting Article: How to get more girls in Scouting with Scout Me In

    Order of the Arrow Article: Welcoming girls into OA staring February 2019

    Roundtable Article: Welcoming girls into a pack

    Scouting FAQ: Uniform Q&A with feature photo of a girl Cub Scout

    Cub Scout Corner: How to balance busy lives with a big feature photo of a girl

    Ethics Article: Cell phone story focused on a teen girl

    Main Article #1: Welcome to the Family - 8 page spread focused on girls

    Main Article #2: A New Era of Scouting - 4 page spread about girls in Cubs

    New Leader Guide: Feature photo of a female leader

    Now tell me why boys should not feel they have lost their Scouting program? I predict BSA will lose more boys than girls gained for a net loss of overall membership. Faced with this reality, they'll change to program to make it even more girl-friendly. Boys are the failing segment of our society right now, and nobody cares - nobody.

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