cyphertext

1 hour ago, CalicoPenn said:

Real lesson learned?  Telling a Scout he can't have something back until he sings for it, the Scout saying go ahead and keep it, and the Dad (who is also a lawyer) coming to the next meeting reading the SM the riot act for stealing his son's gear.  Yeah - that really happened - our Troop never did the "I'm a little teapot" thing ever again. 

Sounds like a real fun troop... 

5 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

Canoe waterskiing is good times, but getting the canoe up on a good plane is a challenge, also don't try to slalom, stick with two skis

When there is a will...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ2kdy3lTz8

5 hours ago, ItsBrian said:

Should’ve included this... it’s around 6 scouts first time.

Makes jousting even more fun!  Good practice to learn how to get back into the canoe.

Canoe jousting!

And I thought getting a group from Tiger to Arrow of Light was a big deal! 

3 hours ago, Chadamus said:

Oversight perhaps? Otherwise it's something else that doesn't have to be earned.

Hmmm...  Many online, competency based degree programs are set up very similarly...  material is there for you to review if you would like, however the only requirement is that you pass the test demonstrating your competency.  I wouldn't say that a degree earned from a program like that is not earned.  If you already know the info, I don't see the reason to sit through it again.

22 hours ago, FireStone said:

It's not gambling but if the SPL is taking a cut of the money, it sort of does make it look worse than it is probably. It's not an SPL taking money selling gear or something. It's a card game. And cards + money will always raise some eyebrows. 

I'm much more concerned with the exclusionary aspect of it, though. If it becomes this thing where some kids feel left out of a group activity because they don't have the extra money to spend, that seems like something that shouldn't be allowed. 

It also seems like it would become way too much of a focus for the trip if it takes as much time as it sounds like from what others have shared (like some draft games taking up the better part of a weekend). Card games on scout trips are supposed to be a fun way to kill a little time sitting around the fire or in the dining hall. If this game becomes hours of involvement throughout the weekend and demands organizational time and attention by all involved, I'd be concerned. 

From what I read, nobody knows that the SPL is making any money off of this... they thought that the SPL might be due to the cost, but those cards cost money, and most of the adults admit that they know nothing about the game.  Like I suggested earlier, each Scout that wanted to play could just bring a predetermined number of unopened packs so that no money changes hands.

As far as length of game, a large draft game takes a couple of hours or less, depending on number of players.  The person who said that their son plays all weekend is saying that they build multiple decks and have multiple games, not one game that lasts the entire weekend.

I can't really address the exclusionary aspect.  Like I said before, my son and his patrol played, not the whole troop.  They played during their downtime.  It was something that they all liked to do.  Now that they have aged out, they still get together to go camping and play Magic.

56 minutes ago, Ranman328 said:

I would have to agree that this would be considered gambling.  The scouts in our Troop always play this at Lock-In's and campouts.  They have never used money and it does not require money to play. 

You're not understanding how the draft game works.  It isn't gambling...  the money is used to pay for the cards that are provided.  What your Scouts are doing is playing with cards they brought.  In a draft game, you don't bring your own cards...  new packs are purchased and the players select their cards to build their decks from that pool of cards, the theory being that everyone stars on equal footing.  And at the end of the game, you get to keep the cards you selected.  So basically, you are paying for new cards. In games where you bring your own cards, it can be difficult to be competitive because one player may have bought 5 packs of cards and built his deck from the best of those, and the other player may have bought 100 packs to build a deck. 

7 hours ago, JasonG172 said:

Yea, hence why my son and I wont be going to World 2019

I wouldn't let that stop you from going...  So much more to experience than just patch trading.

Like this patch above, most of the patches my son collected when he went to Jambo had very little to do with scouting...

7 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

Patches at least relate to Scouting.  If Scouters need to spend time making their Scouts understand the need to act Scoutlike in regard to something that is part of Scouting, that is time well spent.  The magic cards are a distraction that has nothing to do with Scouting.

Shouldn't Scouts act Scoutlike and uphold the Scout Oath and Law in all aspects of their lives, not just things that have to do with Scouting?  My son and his group of friends play Magic on camp outs during down time...  They even took Magic cards to Philmont.  Not really much different than Scouts of yore playing Yahtzee or Hearts.

3 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

I received an invitation to be mB counselor for a neighboring district's mB college. They specifically stated that the scouts were to be able to complete the badges in a 3-hour seminar. I politely declined and gave my reason as "Three hours is not nearly enough time to provide to the scouts to complete the requirements as written. Secondly, this format and time limit denies the scouts the opportunity to truly benefit from the adult association method and to really engage in the mB itself."

What merit badge did they ask you to teach?  Just curious, as I can't think of any that could be completed in such a short time frame off the top of my head.

14 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

If one does "walk out" for those reasons, I would encourage that those reasons be communicated to the persons in charge.

Agree... can't make it better in the future if they don't know what was wrong.

I think this MB is great for a group.  My son's troop did it, and they participated in a 50 mile ride for Cancer at the end.  The group that participated met each week for rides and to train to build up for the Cancer ride.  It was an awesome experience for the boys.

19 hours ago, ItsBrian said:

I remember taking rifle shooting a few summers ago but only got a partial. I did fantastic on all the shooting, and cleaning the rifle. The only problem is, we go out of state and I don’t know the PA gun laws and I didn’t know I had to know every single one in my brain at all times.

Everything was looking good, small class, until the second to last day he told us we have a 5 page ish written test the next day. Guess what, I failed it since I didn’t know every single requirement.

I don’t see where in the requirments you have to take a written test. Isn’t that adding requirements?

I'm going to say "it depends"....  In the requirements, it states "Explain", and "Identify", so if the test is over those items, then I don't see an issue.  With that said though, I am more concerned about safe handling with my scouts.  I want them to come out of my class knowing and understanding the NRA four rules of gun safety... know what they are, and demonstrate while on the range.  Observing how you handle yourself and the firearm tells me more about your understanding of the requirements than the worksheet or a test.

9 minutes ago, Scoutmaster Teddy said:

Whoa.... I was off-topic and made some generalities. Merit badges press my hot button. I was wrong to generalize all young instructors as bad. I failed to rationalize in a controlled manner.

I have seen some outstanding young MB instructors in camps. What sets me off is instructing by reading thru the pamphlets an hour or two a day and calling it instruction. My problems lie mostly with the Citizenship badges. Sit, listen, fill in the blanks. For the most part I enjoy sitting in on the skills badges - aquatics, camping, pioneering, etc. It's the classroom badges that press my buttons.

Apologies for any offense taken. I'll "do my best" to be more specific.

I was hoping that just came out wrong! Thanks.

I do get what you are saying about MB university and even summer camp.  I just think if you try to draw a line in the sand on the issue, someone will challenge you on it and you will lose that challenge at council.  If your council is completing Eagle required badges in a few hours though, I would take that up with council... there is no way that they can complete all the requirements in a single session.

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

@cyphertext, just to be clear on your position, should an SM have the right to recommend a suitable counselor for his/her scout?

Most of the Eagle badges can't be completed at a MB college because they can't do all of the requirements in one day.  This is where the Scoutmaster should be recommending a "suitable" MB counselor for his scout to work with to finish the badge out.  The MB counselor can then "review" the other requirements to make sure the scout has a good understanding.

I asked my son what his thought was on the MB college and Eagle MB...  His thought is that MB colleges are good for knocking out the classroom type of requirements.  Every Eagle MB has requirements that can be taught in a classroom setting.  And what is the difference between going to a MB college on a Saturday, or sitting in his room looking up things on the Internet to fill out a MB worksheet?  Fellowship with other scouts...

13 hours ago, Scoutmaster Teddy said:

Perhaps. But I will "do my best" to talk them out of it. I've seen Eagle-required merit badges taught by kids at summer camp. Just because they are over 18 and in college doesn't mean much to me. Merit badge mills pound information for a few hours and cal it complete. It's el toro poo-poo. I should have the right to deny certain merit badges from being taken at these events.

This is quite a bit of thread drift, but a couple of your statements concern me.

First, why should you have the right to deny merit badges taken at these events?  I get it, you don't think the Scout has mastered the requirement, but again if the council is hosting the event or approves the event, and it is being led by council approved MB counselors, then no, you do not have the right to not accept them.  

Second, just to be clear, that 18 yr old who has aged out of Scouts (and may well be an Eagle Scout), but is now giving back by teaching a merit badge class during Summer camp doesn't mean much to you?  

8 hours ago, Scoutmaster Teddy said:

That's one reason why I'm considering disallowing Eagle-required MBs at MB mills.

I don't think you can do that...  If the MB counselor is registered and approved by your council advancement committee, then you have no legitimate reason to not issue the Scout the blue card.  

2 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

Based on some of the stories I have heard (I've never been there myself), that goes too far as well.  But at least it is Scouting-related. 

My son told me about a kid who wrapped his shoes in duct tape with the sticky side out and then ran across another scout's trading blanket, trying to pick up patches with the tape as he went through the trading area.  He learned not to put his patches on the ground from that one.

Basically sounds like the SPL wants to have a Magic tournament as an activity on a camp out.  Many of the scouts in my son's troop played Magic, but I am not aware of them ever doing a draft game. 

The way a draft game works is that each player gets X number of unopened packs at the beginning of the game.  They open the packs and they keep one card from each pack.  They then pass the rest of the pack to the left.  This continues as each player chooses a card from each pack as they go around the table... thus the "draft" concept.  So having a fee makes sense, as you have to cover the cost of the cards.  Each participant gets to keep the deck that they built, and usually the winners will get more unopened packs.  It really isn't gambling...  but the SPL should not be profiting from it either.

Perhaps a better way to do this would be for each scout who would like to participate, they need to bring X number of unopened packs.  Just have them bring enough packs of cards to play the game itself, not to provide prizes to the winners.  This also alleviates the possibility of the SPL turning a profit.

Welcome to the forum James.  You may use one of the three types of targets listed.  You do not need all three.

11 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Part of the reason for the AOL is to prepare them for Boy Scouts. Engaging with a troop has been one of the requirements since as long as I can remember, and if memory serves, one of the original requirements. Heck I remember when a man had to be the WDL to simulate Boy Scouts more closely.

One of the challenges i've found is that Scouts do not stay around for long if they do NOT engage with a troop. Give you an example. For the past 2 years, the Webelos from our feeder troop have not camped with us. One den visited us at camp for a few hours and left,  the other den used the joint Scouting for Food activity for the outdoor requirement. 4/5s remain of the first den, and 1of 3 remain from the second den. Contrast that with camping and it is much higher. Out of oldest son's den 2 of the 4 camped with the troop, and hte other two transfered over because of them. Middle son's den had 4 camp with us, and all four are still here.

When my son went through, there was no requirement to camp with a troop.  Wasn't even suggested by the handbook, nor did a troop invite us to.  We did a troop visit with a couple of the local troops and I honestly didn't care for those either because they were dog and pony shows for the Webelos, not typical troop meetings or activities.  

Don't knock the "sit upon"....  Use one when dove hunting.  Has a cooler liner to keep my water and Gatorade cold while in the field!