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Posts posted by cyphertext

  1. 19 hours ago, Setonfan said:

    Do we really think parents are truly confused that both organizations exist?

    Yes, there are some parents that think Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts are related organizations...  a lot of parents!  Throw in the marketing video with girls saying "Scout me in!", it can add to that confusion.  I don't know if GSUSA can win in a court of law, but I can see their point.  

  2. 2 hours ago, shortridge said:

    I would love to see the BSA be its own resource for this. We certainly have the internal expertise. Why not develop our own instructor training and certifications instead of relying on an outside organization that has become incredibly politicized, offensive and objectionable to many Americans? The NRA connection will turn off many parents and youth in the years to come.

    Do you realize that the same words you just used to describe the NRA have been used by some to describe the BSA as well?  In my area, the makeup of the BSA is very close to a mirror image of NRA membership.  Many of the boys who are in Scouts have parents that are NRA members.

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  3. The "Tell an adult" part covers that... the adult corrects the situation in an appropriate manner.  The main point is safety by teaching the kids to not touch the firearm and to leave the area.  The effectiveness is debatable, but the point is not political.

  4. 4 minutes ago, shortridge said:

    I’m about as anti-NRA as you can get, but I don’t see anything wrong with borrowing a simple, easy-to-remember phrase about safety.

    If the BSA were explicitly pushing the Eddie Eagle curriculum or pushing any of the NRA’s political lines, I’d have a major objection. But that doesn’t appear to be the case here.

    You would object to the Eddie Eagle curriculum?  There is nothing political about the curriculum at all...  

  5. On 10/18/2018 at 11:15 AM, Fehler said:

    So at the BB Gun range for the Cub-o-ree last weekend, the instructor, while going over the range safety and eye dominance and other stuff, included the adage "Stop, Don't touch, Leave the area, Tell an adult".  I recognized this from the NRA's "Eddie the Eagle" gun safety for children program.

    I understand that we require all our rangemasters to be certified.  Is the NRA the only group that provides the certification?  Is promoting the NRA's "GunSafe" mantra a requirement of that certification?

    And do we include other groups' materials when we instruct scouts?  Could I, say, teach the 4-H pledge when counseling on the Animal Science merit badge?

    Is there something that you don't agree with in the message of "Stop, Don't touch, Leave the area, Tell an adult"?  Is there something that is not age appropriate in that message for Cub Scouts?

  6. 3 hours ago, Treflienne said:

    So this mom supposedly wasn't actually part of the girl scout troop campout.    Not such a great way to get around the rules.

    I don't agree...  If this woman was not on the trip in an official capacity with the troop (i.e. leader, driver, merit badge counselor, etc) then she was not trying to "get around the rules".  It was a campground open to the public... no different than if I went camping and fishing one weekend at the local lake and at the same time my son's troop had an event there as well.  

  7. I think they would look more "squared away" if they were all wearing matching footwear.  With different colored sneakers, it doesn't look that good.

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  8. 13 hours ago, ItsBrian said:

    I haven't read that many posts on this thread, but if you need 3 pages of discussion and can't come to a conclusion, why allow the game or whatever it is in the first place?

    There really never is a conclusion on threads like this...  what works fine and is accepted for one troop causes issues for another troop...


  9. 13 hours ago, Ranman328 said:

    I am only going by what the original post states and it states that they think the SPL might be making money on it.  He also does not state how much each Scout is charged but was not comfortable with the amount that was being charged.  Perception is everything.  If someone reported this to their District or Council, it does not look good.  The Scouts in my troop help each other build their decks so everyone is on a level playing field.  They teach each other how to play.  Either way, I would not be comfortable with it unless someone can show all the money is accounted for especially since there seems to be financial with some of the Scouts.  I would never put one of our Scout families in a situation where their scout could not go to an event because they could not afford a "Buy In" to a game.

    Again, nobody in this thread has said if the SPL is making money or not...  they "assumed" he is due to how much it costs.  Magic cards cost between $3 and $4 per pack.  If you charge $10 for a draft game and each person keeps the equivalent of 3 packs of cards, and there are extra packs purchased for the winner with any remaining funds, no one is making any money off of them.  

    No one said that a Scout couldn't go to an event...  this just seems like something extra to do while on a campout.  Some scouts will want to participate, some won't.  I've already given suggestions on how to change this where the game could still be played, but no money change hands between scouts at the event.


  10. 3 minutes ago, David CO said:

    That is true. There aren't nearly as many Catholic schools as there are public schools. But then again, it would be extremely unusual for a public high school to charter a scout unit. It almost never happens.

    I think the analogy works better for a private school, since they are far more likely (than public schools) to have volunteer coaches and/or volunteer scout leaders.


    Not really...  I was a volunteer with my son's JROTC unit.  A parent volunteer.  I didn't answer to any / all teachers either.  If a teacher didn't like what I was doing with the JROTC unit, go take it up with the Colonel.  Unless Colonel or Sarge say otherwise, we are going to keep on doing what we were doing.

    If this is a common occurrence at your school, teachers interfering with activities that they are not involved with, sounds like a bunch of folks are on a power trip.

    What about the rest of my earlier post?  That seems to be pretty common here for units that are not chartered by a church.

  11. 3 minutes ago, David CO said:

    Not really unique. It is not at all unusual for Catholic schools to have volunteer coaches. 

    Naturally, a teacher cannot supervise or direct a school administrator. If an administrator is on site, I would expect him/her to take charge and have the teacher assist.

    Pretty unique, as Catholic schools pale in comparison to the number of public schools.  Maybe not unique in the Catholic school world, but that is pretty small piece in the big picture.

    And the point I was making is that the field/gym supervisor is not in charge of, and has no say in on field activities... coaches are in charge, as in our school system and those around us, coaching is a teacher position, not a volunteer.  Same teacher acting as the gym supervisor has no say in what the basketball coach is doing on the court.

  12. 5 minutes ago, David CO said:

    You certainly are not.

    I love sports analogies. I was an Athletic Director. All of our teachers do gym/field supervision at sports events. Not all at the same time, of course. They take turns doing supervision duties. 

    As a member of the teaching staff, the gym/field supervisor has the authority to supervise and direct all of the students and volunteer coaches. If the football coach is a volunteer, he/she must obey the teacher.

    I would add that the teacher's size, gender, and teaching subject don't matter. I would expect a volunteer football coach to obey a 100 lb. female Art teacher no less than he/she would a 220 lb. male Gym teacher. This is clearly explained during volunteer orientation.


    David, your organization sounds very unique...  here, a teacher does not tell the high school football coach how to run his team.  The football coach is the AD for the campus.  His staff are all paid coaches, not volunteers.  The field supervisor controls what happens in the stands, not on the field.  They are responsible for security, monitoring weather, etc... not interacting with the on field activities.

    Same thing with our COs.  Our troop was chartered by a business who has locations world wide.  I would not expect one of their executives on a visit from Japan to stop in and direct our Scoutmaster how to run the troop.  We wouldn't know the guy from Adam!  Our COs also act more as a sponsor than owning the troop.  Neither troop that my son was in met at, or were provided space for meetings from the CO.  We did fundraising and paid dues.  Both troops met at local churches, but the troops were not affiliated with the church.  The CO merely "owned" the troop on paper, but the troops operated autonomously.   

  13. No den meetings?  You should walk away based on that alone.

    As far as the Cubmaster "bullying", I wasn't there, but for him to come check on your son doesn't sound unreasonable.  From what was written, that doesn't sound bad, but of course I am not getting the tone.  When the child hid from him though, he should have changed course...

    I will tell you that having a group of Scouters go against you is something that I have seen as well.  In a troop that we left, there was a complaint made about the Scoutmaster by another parent and the district was called in.  The District Executive told all of us in leadership that he would always side with a Scoutmaster over a parent, as he can find plenty of parents but not enough Scoutmasters!  My son changed troops for his own reasons, but I was shocked to hear this from the DE!

  14. 1 hour ago, Hawkwin said:


    As stated up thread, cutting a corner is unnecessary and does not accomplishing anything on its own. As you illustrate, you still have to have a conversation. Can you cut the card and walk away, assuming you did your job? Could you have a conversation without cutting the card and have a different result? Perhaps cutting the card doesn't accomplish what you think it does if you can't do only that and get the same result.

    I also don't see any relevance to knowing whether or not a scout, now 17, may have used a knife in an unsafe manner when they were 11. We don't care if a scout, at age 17, violated some aspect of safe swim defense when they were 11 as long as they behave correctly now. I can't think of any other practice in BSA that results in the damage - even as something as minor as cutting a corner - of a scouts personal property. Confiscation, yes. Damage, no.


    It is simply a visual warning system to the Scout...  Like I said before, three strikes and you are out.  We have a conversation and a little remedial training when the corner is cut.  I guess I could do it your way and just take the card and make the Scout redo the class for every infraction.

    As far as knowing that a 17 yr old Scout had an infraction when he was 11, I agree with you...  but knowing that the 11 year old Scout had an infraction just last campout is pretty good info to know when it comes to knife safety.  I've never had to ask a 17 yr old to see his totin' chip.  They typically know how to handle a knife in a safe manner by that age, so I wouldn't be aware of their minor infraction.  Funny thing is though, if you ask my son (who is aged out now) why he is missing a corner on his chip, he can tell you exactly what he was doing...  He remembers it.  Seems to be a pretty well rounded individual with no negative trauma from losing a corner on his card.

    • Upvote 1

  15. So a Scout is supposed to wear the merit badge sash as his "trophy case" and be proud of his accomplishments, but they can't wear items such as their 50 miler award?  I can tell you now that my son is more proud of his 50 miler awards and other patches of that nature than he is of most of his merit badges.  Those awards were earned while he was actually out "doing" vs. merit badges that he earned.  They represent the things he enjoyed in Scouting, such as earning the 50 mile award and the BSA Historic Trails award at Northern Tier.  Or his BSA snorkeling award from Sea Base.  These awards are so much more representative of my son's scouting career than Personal Management, Family Life, Environmental Science and other classroom badges.

    Guess we ran afoul of the uniform rules, because all of those things are on the back of his sash.




  16. 6 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:


    So, can anyone tell me how cutting up a card (in and of itself) in any way creates discipline? Does a scout learn to properly use a knife the moment you cut the card? Are they automatically cured of their lack of discipline? Are they a safer scout now that they have a cut card? If not, then might there be more effective ways to teach discipline? If there are more effective ways to teach a scout discipline (if you still have to educate the scout after you cut the card), then perhaps the cutting of a card is more about the scouter and less about the scout. YMMV of course.


    The cutting of the card shows that the Scout had a safety violation.  As I stated earlier, we gave them a little remedial training when the corner was cut to make sure they knew what they did wrong.  It was an effective way to remind them of the rules and knife safety, as well as let other Scouters know if the Scout had previous issues with knife safety.

    I guess you disagree with having different color tags to denote swimmer vs. non-swimmer as well?  After all, anyone can see who passed and who failed the BSA swim test... and some Scouts are embarrassed by it.  

    And as far as parents not complaining...  My wife and one other parent in my den were teachers.  If they thought that I was doing something to harm the children, I am sure they would have spoken up.  I asked my wife about this subject this morning, and she said it is no different that writing the child's name on the board as a warning for discipline in the classroom (or changing their color from green to yellow and red as they do now).


  17. 2 hours ago, Hawkwin said:




    The thought that removing a corner of the Totin' chip for safety infractions amounts to hazing just blows my mind.  When my Cubs earned their whittling chip, they received it with one corner already removed by me...  We had a three strikes rule.  Minor infractions would result in removing a corner and a little remedial training.  If you lost all three corners, you lost the chip and had to redo it to earn another one.  Major infractions would have been dealt with differently, but I never had one.  

    Never had a parent complain.

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