Hawkwin

2 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

 

Also as this suit may drag on, the use of bourbon (or whiskey) may help many of us endure.   

Take a little of my cola and a little of your whiskey...

22 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I'm trying to think of a similar analogy

Perhaps Cola.

"Coca Cola" started it all but it wasn't long before there were other "Colas" like Pepsi, RC, and others throughout the world. While Coke can claim ownership of Coca Cola and Pepsi can claim ownership of Pepsi Cola, I doubt anyone would face serious legal challenges to simply offering a generic "Cola" or perhaps a more accurate of a comparison, "Cola BSA."

15 hours ago, cocomax said:

I will be using these terms and completely avoid trouble:

BSA

BSA for Boys

BSA for Girls

Cubs

Cubs for Boys

Cubs for Girls

Venturing

So when talking to a group of boy scouts, your going to say, "hey BSA for boys, let's gather 'round to..."?

2 hours ago, cocomax said:

I say just call it   BSA

Still would have the issue of what we call the sc@&ts.

Sure would be interesting to hear just how close, or how far apart, both orgs were when they were originally discussing some sort of joint action that might have avoided all this.

Cue Rodney King...

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

It doesn't sound like you vets are alone. Congressman elect Dan Crenshaw brought that point home in a conversation with Pete Davidson on Saturday Night Live. Crenshaw said he didn't like "Thank you for your service." and suggested the following:

So, vets. Never forget.

Does that come across better?

I watched that, and it does, a little. Again, it might be me being a curmudgeon but civilians actually forget all the time. There is almost no national awareness that troops are still dying in active hostile engagements in various conflicts. Some stranger telling me to "never forget" still begs the question a bit. I lived it; of course I will never forget. Perhaps if they said instead said "[I will] never forget." I didn't get that implication when I watched it live but perhaps I missed it.

I might have to think on this a bit. I've long known that I didn't care for the practice but I hadn't put enough thought into it to have a well formed opinion or a recommended solution.

[Conscious stream of thought to follow...] I was never in REAL harms way. I was in the infantry and I was deployed overseas but never in a really hostile situation (missed Desert Shield by a week). Why should someone thank me or even acknowledge me any more than they would acknowledge the social worker or the parole officer that might work in a dangerous environment all the time? If I had joined the military to be a legal clerk and I was station in Hawaii for 5 years, did I really do something that deserves special recognition? MANY do deserve recognition and appreciate for their sacrifices but thanking a random vet when you don't know what they/we did? Even telling us they will never forget - forget what? That my "sacrifice" was to deliver mail for six months while I was deployed to Egypt (true story)?

*Shrug...*

Still considering...

I don't know if I am atypical in this but I don't even liked to be thanked for my service. 1. It is rote and meaningless in most cases. 2. I didn't really do it for them. 3. I don't feel like I actually did anything that was of service to the person making the comment. 4. I feel like it obligates me to respond somewhat in kind like with "you're welcome" which compounds my weird feelings on this practice.

Maybe I am too much of a curmudgeon when it comes to this topic.

Tangent: I don't say "[God] bless you" when people sneeze either. What a weird practice considering the fact that we are using a pagan ritual and belief to wish the blessing of a deity on someone because they had something in their nose.

How about something rather unique that combines both the utility of a hat and a neckerchief?

My daughter likes to wear a "buff." I had not thought of this before but a buff could be class A headgear and class B neckwear and it could also provide much of the same utility of a neckerchief.

They could be both uniform and unique (could add patches or other ornamentation to them).

I did a quick search and it appears the scouts of South Africa already do this:

https://www.scouts.org.za/2014/10/13/get-original-ssa-buff/buff-female-image/

I think I am going to pass this idea along to my daughter. I was keen on a beret:

https://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/uniforms/proper-wear-of-the-army-b.shtml

but I think this one will go over better.

21 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

In my familys case having spent decades in both BSA and GSUSA, this feels like watching your parents fight it out in divorce court.   

 

Absolutely. But, there is no reason for the kids to love their parents any less over it. I don't get my scouts involved in picking sides in this dispute and my daughter is in both organizations.

44 minutes ago, qwazse said:

We could return to last year's brand ...

As someone that opposed any name change, that ship has already sailed. We can't go back short of a court order forcing us to. To go back while under a pending law suit would open us up to any potentially frivolous lawsuit that anyone else could consider. Certainly would not feel brave if we buckled under this little bit of pressure.

There is no going back while under threat. This is the hill we die on. Certainly GSUSA and BSA could have held these sort of discussions privately (and they may have) but now it is too late to try and find some negotiated new name change.

On ‎11‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 4:16 PM, Treflienne said:

GSUSA does not want BSA to call the BSA girls "SCOUTS"

Ya, I get that. Don't really care though. They can sue me.

I will await my Cease and Desist.

1 hour ago, cocomax said:

The most logical thing to do is to add the noun "boy" or "girl" in front of the new name "Scouts BSA" to tell people that I am talking about an all girl scout troop or an all boy scout troop. This is important to do when recruiting boys and girls to join a troop and this is also were we are going to get into a lot of trouble. 

 

"Here in "Scouts BSA", we have girls only troops and boys only troops. Either way, your child will be joining the largest and oldest scouting organization in America."

Other than during recruitment, would there be a real need to tell someone you are talking about a girls troop vs. a boys troop? Even if there is a need, I am not sure there is a need to refer them as a boys (scout) troop vs a girls (scout) troop. It should already be clear that you are talking about Scouts BSA.

From the article:

Quote

A century ago, the Boy Scouts sued to block the Girl Scouts from using the name “Scout,” according to The Atlantic magazine.

Looks like BSA lost that case. I don't see how stare decisis would be ignored when GSUSA tries to take a second bite at the apple.

20 hours ago, ParkMan said:

So, today we have many women who camp, hike, bike, fish, etc...  This could be regional and could be part of what is going on in the Southern region.  It is a part of the country where outdoor activities are fairly prevalent.

 

Maybe not so regional. From today:

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/06/663112361/luring-more-women-to-fishing-in-the-upper-great-lakes

Snip:

In 2016, about 14 percent of Americans fished, and most of them were men. But a recent study on the Upper Great Lakes indicates female participation is on the rise. It found that fishing license sales increased among female anglers by about 4.5 percent between 2000 and 2015. That's an additional 43,000 female anglers.

--------------

Both in cubs and scouts, booth sales have always counted in the same general manner as door to door. In some cases, total booth sales for the day were divided up between the scouts in attendance that day, sometimes the entire weekend (if they had a booth set up for two days at a grocery for example), at least one time divided up for the entire year (total booth sales divided by total scout hours x your scout's hours worked) and most recently, by the exact sales that you booked during your hours worked (so you were incentivized to sell more during your slot and not rely on the sales of others).

In all cases, the scouts were credited for their sales for both individual rewards as well as any council rewards. The two numbers were simply added together with no discrimination.

As far as tracking it, this year, TrailsEnd allowed one to track individuals booth and DtD sales right in their app so it was very easy. In previous years, each day or each weekend sales were totaled on a tracking sheet and then divvied up based on hours worked.

As far as what they earned, we have given unit awards (gift cards usually), free or reduced recharter, free or reduced summer camp, and council awards - as well as pie a leader.

When I used to be the Popcorn Kernel, I used an excel spreadsheet to track everything. I think TrailsEnd new app makes that less of a necessity - though I was VERY proud of my spreadsheet as it totaled everything for me (put about 20 hours into making it) as well as tracked my total inventory and sales by show n sell and by each scout.

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 11:49 AM, Treflienne said:

And typically look really, really, really sloppy. 

The GSUSA gave up on a "uniform" look uniform in the early 1970s when they went mix-and-match.

Actually having a uniform is one of the things about BSA that appeals to my daughter.

Honestly, I would take a sash over the 3XX smock I see most of them in. How is anyone supposed to look neat in article of clothing that hangs from the shoulders with no connectors in the middle. Every time I see an older girl in one they look sloppy.

Since Scouts was modeled on the military, it makes complete sense to me that we have a dress uniform (class A), a field uniform (class B - a shirt with a place for official rank and not much else), and for those troops that want such, a troop specific athletic uniform (class C) that is a tshirt.

Leave the dress uniform at home when going on camp outs or other outdoor activities, just like the military would do.

11 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

This is 2 weeks old... but is probably still directionally correct 

 

Hey Eagle, is that posted to the facebook group or someplace else? I would be interested in seeing where my council, Crossroads, ranks in our region as well as total number.

Wild to see that some have 10 times as much, or more. Hopefully there is something that can be learned from their experience as simply warm weather cant account for the difference between Florida and Southern Louisiana.

16 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Well the boys and I came back from visiting the troop. Meeting was atypical, only uniforms worn were by my sons and the adults. It was their annual Halloween party with a costume contest. Orsin Krennic won best costume. Overall it went very well. My guys were a little nervous and standoffish at first, but once the food was served, it went well. They had a good time. The word is out, and one of the folks I thought would transferred called to find out and said he's thinking of it.

Ha! almost mirrors my son's experience last night exactly.

What a roller-coaster ride these last two days were. We went from my son quitting scouts on Sunday night to him "having fun at a meeting" during a troop visit last night, and him committing to join the new troop before we even got home - all in a 48 hour period. I am an emotional wreck!

Rather than continue this story in the previous thread:

I thought, in light of what is in all reality a positive end result, to start a new thread that isn't burdened by all the heartache of the old thread. While we will miss the scouts of the old troop, as well as some of the scouters, I am sure we will make new friends and relationship in the new troop (or rebuild some that we used to have as some of the scouts and scouters of this troop came from my son's old pack).

The SM of the new troop is also a member of the district leadership and was already aware of the problems we were having in the old troop. Both my son and I asked many questions to address our concerns and the SM seemed to clearly indicate that the new troop is about fun first, and advancement and requirements second and that the SM was more than happy to do SMCs at a meeting. As I nodded my head and grinned I could not help but blurt out, "a game with a purpose."

Again, thank you to everyone that help my scout (and ME) get through this. It brought tears to my eyes last night when my son related his excitement in having a new scouting home.

And a bonus! This troop will be creating a sister troop so my daughter will have a place too in February!

5 hours ago, numbersnerd said:

Just musing, not proposing any course of action. And maybe its been addressed in the preceding dozen+ pages.

What would the district or council reaction to such news be? That a troop essentially adding requirements is turning off boys to the extent that they are opting to quit entirely?

1. Part of me (the cynical part) would assume that they probably don't care and would rather not ruffle leader feathers.
2. But the optimistic side would hope that someone sees the problem for what it is.
3. Then the cynical side pops up again and says, "Yeah, gotta keep those membership numbers up" and that would be the focus of addressing the issue, not the root problem.

I feel for ya. A lot of internal conflict I'm sure between supporting your son's decision and trying to do the right thing by him and many others.

District is well aware and not happy about it but nothing they can easily do as I understand it. If the CO doesn't object, then the only recourse to my knowledge would be to pull the charter.

If we do find a home in the other troop, the most effective thing WE can do is for my son to be an outstanding Den Chief for the local packs and help recruit them to his new troop instead of letting them go to his old troop.

13 hours ago, malraux said:

The snarker in me would make the final act in that troop to ask the sm to sign off on the smc and completion of rank since he did meet with the sm. 

Heh. I have the impression that the other troop we are considering will not present an issue with a signed off SM.

Edit: Oh trust me, I have been brimming with snark for two months over this issue (and it has occasionally spilled over) but I had to keep reminding myself that this is for my scout and anything I do that is NOT IN SERVICE to the aims and methods of what he is trying to accomplish simply benefits me and not him. If I had to grovel and look meek to placate egos, then so be it.

13 hours ago, mashmaster said:

How old is your son and what rank?  If he is old enough to do Venturing or Sea Scouts and First Class, he can work on his Eagle while being a member of those units.  My son was done with scouts and then found Sea Scouts and now loves it.

Just another option for you.  I am not surprised the SM had that response and kudos to your son for being brave enough talk to him.

12, First Class.

I am hopeful we can find a home in the other Troop but if not, we might have to wait for Venturing age. No Sea Scouts in our area.

Long overdue update.

The committee meeting was interesting. Felt like my own board of review (or military promotion board in reality - felt like I was trying to make Sergeant again). It was me, surrounded by all the members of the committee while they all argued against me. I won't elaborate further other than to say it was a less than pleasant experience - with no real result. The only concession I was given, almost as an after thought, was that I was offered the opportunity to recraft the rules and send them to the incoming SM for his consideration next year. I gladly accepted the opportunity as at least it was better than nothing.

I shared the experience with my son and told him that they are going to want to see him more often at weekend campouts, that scouting must come first for a while and that regardless of our perception of the rules, if he wants to get promoted, he will have do what they want. Such is life.

Tonight, about an hour before the meeting, he tells me that he would just rather quit.

I told him that the respectful thing to do would be to still go to the meeting in full uniform and tell them in person. He agreed. I asked him why now, and he said that it wasn't fun. The meetings are always boring with the scouts sitting in chairs being talked at by adults. He also didn't want to have to sacrifice soccer tournaments in order to get promoted. I thought to myself, as well as remarked to him, that would have been great feedback to provide to the SM if only the SM would have been willing to do a SMC.

My son told the SM face to face that he was quitting and why. I did not witness it but my son's impression was that the SM really didn't care. Was told that he could come back if he ever changes his mind. I thought FOR SURE that the scouters would take this opportunity to talk to him in more detail - to have a conversation. I fully expected them to try (and succeed) at talking him out of it. Imagine my surprise when my scout walked out of the meeting five minutes after he went in.

We are going to visit another troop. I told him that he owes it to himself to at least determine if it is scouting or if it is the troop. Don't make a decision in a vacuum of information - and one that you might regret later as I did when I quit as a cub.

Sad day in our household. My son asked me if I was disappointed and I was honest with him - but I also said that he has to live his life that way he thinks is best. It isn't me being forced to go to boring meetings or being forced to chose between my love for soccer and my love for scouting so while I am disappointed in the decision, I am not disappointed in him for making it.

On 10/6/2018 at 9:24 AM, Ranman328 said:

Just can't seem to get the adults to take the class.  

Well, with all due respect, there's your (their) problem. I have little sympathy for parents that are not willing to put in even a marginal amount of effort to make things work. Find an hour, even an hour at their local library, to take the class isn't asking for too much.

1 hour ago, Momleader said:

We have 2 girls who want to join the pack as Arrow of Light scouts and are upset there isn’t a Girl Troop set up for them to join in town. (We struggle to get parents to be leaders for the all Boy Troop as it is).  

The parents of the girls feel it isn’t fair that a plan hasn’t been made to create a girl Troop yet 🤦‍♀️  Can’t even imagine what February will be like. 

Sounds like a problem for the Council or the District, not your troop. I would refer them to the appropriate entity.

I have an AOL daughter in the same predicament and I continue to work actively with the local district to find her a troop in February. I don't harass my son's troop (or their CO) about it but I have asked them what they plan to do.