Hawkwin
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Posts posted by Hawkwin
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17 hours ago, Treflienne said:
Great news that your daughter has a troop. Last thing I remember you saying on the subject was "Don't ask".
Ya, we had to step outside our district, again, to find a home. At least this troop (unlike her pack) is a much closer drive (less than 15 minutes). We were working on trying to start a troop in our home town but the leadership, both within the brother troop and the district just didn't seem to have any sense of urgency. It was May and they hadn't even set up an information night (and school is out in May) so we had to find a troop before summer if I wanted her to be at all active during the summer. She got to go to a 1st Class day camp with her troop and gets her Scout patch on Sunday.
17 hours ago, Treflienne said:Now for the pressing question: Did she convince her patrol mates to be the Artemis Patrol and use that great patrol patch she designed? or did they talk her into something else? ( It seems to me that the incoming girls have a great opportunity to raise the standard on patrol names and patches. )
They went with something else - The Sea Turtles. She missed the meeting/camp out where they picked the patrol name. Her own fault for choosing not to go. The SM has indicated that patrol names will change over time. No idea what that schedule will be but I like the idea that they can evolve.
17 hours ago, Treflienne said:Keep in mind that as CC, being one of the key three, you will be in a position to positively influence the new troop. Having a brother troop, you will have experienced scouters nearby when you need to ask questions.
Yep, and the existing leadership seems not only VERY competent, they also seem to be very like-minded. I have been very pleased with all of the leadership so far and the methods and techniques used that have been new to my experience. For example, the troop gives all new scouts a sold white neckerchief when they join the troop. They "graduate" to other neckerchiefs as they progress in ranks. I love that idea. I've not seen or been part of another troop that did that.
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I've been asked to be the CC for my daughter's new Troop she joined last May. The current CC is the Advancement Chair (AC?) of the "brother" troop and she wants to step down from trying to do two roles (and who can blame her). I was originally asked to be the AC but have recently been recruited to step into the big shoes.
I can log into myscouting and go through the training to learn what I need to do but we all know that such training can never really prepare one for the role so I am seeking the advice of other CCs (and non CCs) here.
What do you look for most from your CC? SMs, what bugs you the most about your CC? For current or past CCs, what is the one thing you wished you knew before you started or that you wished you did a better job of in the role?
What are some pitfalls to look out for? What are some tricks of the trade that really help make this job easier? Any other advice you might offer?
I told the current CC that I would make my decision either way by the end of this weekend. Any feedback you can provide is certainly appreciated.
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Curious; anyone know why it is referred to as the "field" uniform? In my military experience, the "field" uniform is the one you would wear when "in the field" and it would generally be absent any awards. The field uniform WAS/IS the activity uniform.
The BSA "field" uniform is anything but that - and is also probably why so many have come to call it the "class A" since it more closely resembles, and is more accurately worn and used in a similar manner.
What is the official terminology for how to distinguish between the "field" uniform and what I most often hear as either the "full" uniform or the "dress" uniform when a scout is asked to include their sash and pants/shorts?
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17 hours ago, Thunderbird said:
It is relevant because it was work that she did prior to joining a Scouts BSA troop.
No, two different issues and policies are being conflated here.
The rules that allow for work done in a foreign scouting organization to be considered existed before the creation of the Temporary Transition Rules and are found in the GTA (https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf), 5.0.4.0, page 38.
The Temporary Transition rules (https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/02/Implementation-Details-for-Scouts-BSA.pdf) apply to the extension allowed to scouts that join now who are over 16 but under 18.
To summarize the two different issues:
1. Can a US citizen, who was likely domiciled in the US at the time, complete work in a foreign scouting organization and then have the work considered and credited after they join BSA. To answer that question, we turn to the GTA - but it does not answer it directly. It is my contention that this was simply an oversight and that such a situation just was not considered previously due to just how rare it would be. If it was considered, then I think it would be fair to assume that the GTA would explicitly state such - just like it explicitly states that Eagle may not be awarded via this method. I base my opinion on the idea that it would serve none of the AIMS of scouting to allow a foreign citizen to gain consideration for credit, including Merit Badges, up to but no including Eagle, for the work they did but deny that same credit for the same work to a US citizen. It seems strange to me that we would have a policy biased against US citizens based on their domicile.
[Edit: And it would appear that her Council agreed with such and credited her for prior work completed.]
2. Should scouts that have prior work credited be allowed to obtain Eagle prior to the established deadline in the Temporary Transition Rules (TTR). As the document states, it takes roughly 20 months to complete the work to obtain Eagle. Absent any prior work being recognized, no new scout should be able to get it any quicker, male or female. The TTR specifically states that the first class of female Eagles will be recognized in the Fall of 2020. It creates no such restriction on males that join BSA in 2019. In general, I fully support the transition rules. In general, I don't support the idea that even if a council recognizes and credits work done in a foreign scouting organization, that one could obtain Eagle in just six months. But, if a council recognizes work performed in a foreign scouting organization for a male that joined BSA in 2019 for the first time, there is no restriction in the TTR on that individual obtaining Eagle this year. As such, the TTR does have the potential for disparate impact with this rule. From where I am sitting, my recommendation would be to quit the fight for early Eagle on her part - but I am in no way going to fault her or think less of her for her attempt to do what she thinks is right or fair. I am not in her shoes, I can't possible empathize with her plight, and it would be extremely judgmental for me (or anyone else), to think less of her for doing so.
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22 minutes ago, Thunderbird said:
The temporary transition rules very clearly state that "all requirements must be completed while the individual is a registered member of Scouts BSA, or after achieving the First-Class Rank in Scouts BSA
You are quoting from a section not relevant to the topic. To quote:
QuoteWill work completed while girls participated unofficially before the introduction of Scouts BSA count towards Eagle requirements?
... all requirements must be completed while the individual is a registered member of Scouts BSA ...
This issue isn't about work she did as a tag-along with her brother's unit. It is about work she did while a scout of a foreign troop (not at all mentioned in the transition document). The Temporary transitions rules don't really address this issue at all (outside of the recognition section - which I fully support).
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28 minutes ago, Eagledad said:
Some believe that self-servingness in the desire
And yet again, you imply less than honorable motivations behind her actions.
This isn't about agreeing to disagree, this about not disparaging a scout and a minor. To quote our Moderator, "we don't do that." We can discuss the proper course of action without dragging in assumptions about her motivations.
AND, I am sure I have stated that more than once as well.
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2 hours ago, qwazse said:
After Feb 1, BSA would also permit a young women from her foreign WOSM organization to start advancement based on the work done in her own country since Feb 1.
I don't think that is valid. Are suggesting that a Canadian female scout from Canada that completed work equivalent to First Class in 2018 would not be eligible to have that work considered if she moved to the US in 2019? If so, is there some verbiage that would support that interpretation? I am open to being incorrect but I've not read anything that would suggest that. Thanks.
2 hours ago, an_old_DC said:Sydney is trying to make this all about her
Let's please not infer something sinister about her motives, please.
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2 minutes ago, willray said:
the biggest reason she should not be permitted to be “the first female eagle”, is precisely because she so vocally wants to be.
The biggest reason to deny is based on the applicant being too vocal? I know you have your own female troop but man, that reads like saying she "doesn't know her place" or that she should "sit down, be quiet." I really don't think you intended it that way but to suggest BSA make a decision based on how vocal someone is smacks of an arbitrary decision.
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49 minutes ago, willray said:
The path for advancement for citizens is, and was always, defined. The path for citizens enrolled in BSA to have work conducted while abroad counted towards advancement is and was also defined.
The only way to accept that rationale is to believe that the authors of that section intentionally wanted to provide foreign citizens of foreign scouting troops more avenues for advancement in BSA than US citizens of foreign scout troops. I don't think that was their intent and I think the wording of this section was simply an oversight. The fact that they allow for someone living abroad this option clearly eludes to the intent to recognize advancement for US citizens in foreign scouting organizations. Where someone is domiciled at the time of membership seems a trivial technicality and an oversight.
You have to ask yourself, what AIMS does it serve to have such a restriction on US citizens? A Canadian female scout from Canadian scout troop could move here, join BSA and have her prior work credited but we would deny Miss Ireland that same consideration for the exact same prior work, simply because she was not living in Canada at the time?
I would not be surprised to see some future errata on this topic that clarifies - not that it is really that common of an issue.
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16 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:
This phrase in the G2A says it all: "Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here,.... "
Considering she was born and bred in NYC, she doesn't qualify.
So to confirm, it is your belief that the authors of the GTA intentionally set out to create a policy of advancement that was only available to non-citizens?
Do you think a US citizen that lived abroad temporarily and joined a foreign scouting association should be allowed to have that work considered when they moved back home?
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On 6/21/2019 at 4:14 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:
Many point out that whomever granted her Life did it inappropriately as she is not a youth from another country but a US citizen. The key parts of that are "Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here which she did neither.
Is it your contention that the intent behind the GTA was to disadvantage US citizens? Or, was perhaps the language used simply not inclusive enough to consider all the potential variables (in other words, an oversight)?
Do you really think BSA set out to tell a US citizen that they are prohibited from some tools of advancement that we offer to Canadians?
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6 hours ago, sri_oa161 said:
The real problem is that the work was not done while she was a member of Scouts BSA.
The GTA is not clear on this point. To quote:
If progress from a foreign Scouting association is to be considered and applied to BSA requirements, then the foreign Scout must meet in person (or over electronic media) with members of the council or district advancement committee, along with at least one adult leader or committee member of the receiving unit. Previous advancement work is reviewed to determine the BSA rank—up to, but not including Eagle Scout rank—the youth is qualified to receive.
The question is whether or not citizenship limits that ability or not. My contention is that it doesn't.
Since the Council has the authority to award rank, up to but not including Eagle, for work done in a foreign scouting association, then it seems that the Council is well within their right to award her Life scout if they deem she has complete equivalent work.
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On 5/18/2019 at 2:02 PM, FireStone said:
She put that Life rank on even though the BSA specifically outlined what she would have to do to earn it, and that past activities would not be credited.
I don't think that is true. Per my reading of the GTA, the local Council gets to decide if her work outside of BSA counts.
In other words, if you disagree with her wearing Life rank, then your disagreement should be with the council, not her. She certainly can't wear something not awarded by the adult volunteers.
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1 hour ago, Pale Horse said:
Don't get me wrong, I love Frogg Toggs, for what they are; a semi-disposable rain suit. If you're careful, they can certainly last multiple uses
Interesting. My daughter now carries the hand-me-down from my son (full suit but they don't usually take the pants). No noticeable wear or tear on it. Perhaps older versions of this product were not as good?
The one they use is probably three years old and bought from the scout shop.
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8 hours ago, chief027 said:
Therefore not to blame anyone but you signing that off is not allowed as a scout must be religious.
Agnostic is not the same thing as atheist. And while there is a requirement to be faithful in religious duties, BSA does not define those duties.
I would say that the goal in this situation would be to help this agnostic scout discover ways in which they can perform (I will use a different word), spiritual duties. "Religious" implies a set of organized dogma and I really don't think such is in keeping with the intent.
A parable:
God and the devil were walking down a path one day when God spotted something sparkling by the side of the path. He picked it up and held it in the palm of his hand.
"Ah, Truth," he said.
"Here, give it to me," the devil said. "I'll organize it."
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I carry one of the various plastic ponchos you can buy for less than $1.
Not going to find something lighter or cheaper.
My kids take a Frogg Togg top. Amazon has them listed at about 5-6 oz and for as cheap at $15.
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4 minutes ago, mrkstvns said:
That's too bad because it means the local lodge is likely ignoring or skirting the rules for OA membership.
How does someone who has only been eligible for membership in BSA suddenly achieve 15 nights of camping with 1 long-term (5 night) camp?
https://oa-bsa.org/article/2018-membership-update
QuoteBeginning February 1, 2019, unit elections will be permitted in Scouts BSA, Venturing and Sea Scout units. The new Order of the Arrow membership requirements are as follows:
...
Q. Will camping be counted retroactively for those currently in Venturing and Sea Scouts?
Yes.
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11 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:
but it's clear what you inferred from the comment.
Yes. Context.
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15 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:
call into question
Suggesting that he "greesed the wheels" is to imply he did something less than ethical. It calls into question his character and motives.
Another comment (not from you) stated that he was a "rich lawyer" (class envy?!?) and that he "shamelessly exploited loopholes." Again, impugning character.
I think we can discuss the merits of her situation without calling into question the motivations of her father or herself for that matter.
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5 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:
And Dad's a lawyer, so that helps to grease the wheels
From his Law firm website - interesting the mention of girls and women in Boy Scouts is on the home page
With the guidance of the Law Offices of Gary Ireland, you can maximize income and benefits when joining a company, enhance severance, and if necessary assert rights when leaving. Gary Ireland also works with clients who are seeking to start companies – with his help you can save money and solve legal problems by making smarter business decisions while limiting risk. And Gary is active as an advocate for inclusion and non-discrimination - currently working to enable girls and young women to participate at all of levels of scouting within the Boy Scouts of America.
Can we PLEASE get off this kick of trying to impugn her father, and by extension (and sometime outright) the scout? It is really really ugly and I would hope we are both better than that and that we can discuss our positions intelligently without turning to logical fallacies about a person's perceived motives.
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18 minutes ago, qwazse said:
In other words, even if you've acquired the skills overseas, a scout must do the time in a BSA unit to receive a BSA award.
Again, my reply was in support of her being recognized as having completed the work for 1st Class. I stated nothing about Eagle - and the G2A seems rather clear on that point, regardless of citizenship or prior service in any other organization.
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1 hour ago, walk in the woods said:
No. To preserve the integrity of the Eagle Scout Award, all requirements must be completed while the individual is a registered member of Scouts BSA, or after achieving the First-Class Rank in Scouts BSA (as specified in the BSA Guide to Advancement, an individual after earning First Class Rank in Scouts BSA may transfer primary membership to Venturing or Sea Scouts and continue to work on Eagle Scout requirements).
What you quoted is not contrary to what I quoted. She must complete the requirement of Eagle after achieving the First Class rank as specified in G2A.
I post in support of her council recognizing her prior work in granting her First Class.
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22 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:
A) the family did this as a way of bypassing BSA policy and B) she is not Canadian and thus does not meet the "Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here..." portion of the G2A.
I think people are conflating different portions of the G2A. I will quote the individual sentences in order.
5.0.4.0 Youth From Other Countries
QuoteYouth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here, may register in a BSA unit and participate in advancement.
This section clearly allows for non-citizens to join BSA.
QuoteIf progress from a foreign Scouting association is to be considered and applied to BSA requirements, then the foreign Scout must meet in person (or over electronic media) with members of the council or district advancement committee, along with at least one adult leader or committee member of the receiving unit. Previous advancement work is reviewed to determine the BSA rank—up to, but not including Eagle Scout rank—the youth is qualified to receive.
This section clearly states that prior progress made in another scouting organization may be considered and recognized by the council (note, this is not a call made by Nationals - the authority to recognize resides with the council).
The G2A never envisioned the idea that a US citizen would have foreign scouting experience that they would want to apply to BSA so the language does not account for such.
So, I ask, what does BSA accomplish by creating such an odd exclusion? Why would we grant more options and freedoms to a non-citizen than we do our own citizens?
Lastly, I will quote one more section of G2A:
1.0.1.0 How to Approach Issues Not Covered in the Guide to Advancement
QuoteIn situations not specifically covered in this guide, advancement chairs, coordinators, or other administrators should make decisions based on the aims and mission of the Boy Scouts of America as well as the Scout Oath and Scout Law, other applicable current and official BSA resources—and common sense.
I fail to see how anyone would argue that it is common sense to allow a female Canadian the right to have their prior service recognized in BSA but disallow a citizen of the United States the same right. What do we accomplish as an organization by creating such a prohibition?
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On 4/9/2019 at 7:29 PM, Liz said:
That's green, about the same color as what I got. It might be OK on a Venturing Uniform, but not so much on a Scouts BSA uniform.
Weird! The link from my order history is a completely different color (and is clearly tan on my son's uniform). I didn't notice such because I simply copied the link without revisiting the page. The seller must have changed it instead of making a new listing.
How to test scout on GPS usage?
in Open Discussion - Program
Posted
Even without cell service, your typical smart phone can determine GPS from sat coverage. There are a number of free aps where one can do such.
The language of the requirement 4b doesn't seem to convey the need to learn long and lat, much less magnetic declination. It would appear that as long as a scout can use a smart phone (specifically mentioned in the requirement) to get from point A to point B, that the requirement is met.
4a is more about map and compass work.