Eagle1993

On 5/10/2022 at 5:39 PM, Wyobkr said:

The crying shame of it all is that the DOJ says the settlement isn't legal.  What if the judge says go back to the drawing board?

Then BSA will go Chapter 7.  They brought this up multiple times.  They do not have the liquidity to continue in bankruptcy after this summer ... and a completely rejected plan would likely take 6 months to a year to get through the process (plan, voting, confirmation hearing, approval).  If national goes CH7, then expect many local councils to be immediately sued and a large number to file for their own bankruptcies.  LDS and some COs will also get sued.  I'm not sure if the BSA can survive, but it will be ugly for much longer.

Now, I think a more likely outcome is that the judge either approves outright OR rejects but on narrow grounds (i.e. something minor around the releases, injunction, etc.).  If it is narrow, I do think BSA can quickly work through an update to the plan and survive in Ch 11.

In the end, we will have to see what district court says as well. As you say, I do expect DOJ will fight as they see any non-consensual non-debtor releases as an abuse of the bankruptcy court system.  

4 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

When i organized our COVID-19 summer camp, I used the European model of troops picking their own program as a model. I talked to the PLC, got their input for activities, and organized it. But we were flexible. we moved activities around based upon weather and the conditions the kids were in (the morning bike ride turned into a morning and afternoon bike ride exhausting everyone.) The only Set activity we would not change was the BORs. We had 4 or 5 BORs scheduled for the last nite, and had the committee driving in to do them. Could not be rude to the committee. Everyone had a blast at it,  but many do not want to do it again because they want MBs.

We did a similar camp style during Covid, and honestly, I think it was the best summer camp we attended.  The Troop & patrols bonded.  Yes ... many more partials and less complete merit badges, but I think it was a better style and likely closer to aligning to the methods of scouting than most summer camps.

We patrol cook which helps provide an experience outside merit badges which is challenging and fun.  

The Troops/scouts I am most surprised by and the ones that hang out at the trading post with cell phones plugged in just watching videos (or playing games).  It is not many scouts (as a percentage) but I always wonder at that point why even come to camp.

21 hours ago, yknot said:

They used to run an ATV week that was popular but I haven't seen it in a few years so maybe that's no longer in G2SS. 

ATVs are at our summer camp ... so I think they must still be allowed.

13 hours ago, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

Time will tell.  Every DEI I've ever encountered does these things.  It's why they exist.  I just can't believe this woke stuff has penetrated the Boy Scouts of America of all things.

Could you add in "Antifa" into your comments?  I almost have OAN BINGO! 

The DEI & Citizenship in Society MB are very mild.  They are not on any sort of fringe of political stances.  The early release of C in S did have some concerning content, but that was removed. So far, I see no impact to day to day operations of any unit from DEI.  The biggest impact I have seen is council JTE which was actually created back in 2019 (prior to DEI).

Quote

 

Membership inclusion: Serve a diverse representation of the population in the council's territory.

Inclusion is measured by how well the council serves populations in varied ethnicities. The council's total market share of minority ethnicities (defined by the US census Bureau) is compared to the market share of the council in serving the US majority. Serving these minority ethnicities at the same rate would be 100% but could be greater than 100% if this market share is greater than that of the majority. The metric is based upon this percent comparison. Example: If the market share of the varied minority ethnicities is 6.0% and that of white-non Hispanic is 10.0% then the comparative rate is 60%.

• Achieve diversity with inclusive membership at least 45% of the general population level
• Achieve diversity with inclusive membership at least 60% of the general population level
• Achieve diversity with inclusive membership at least 75% of the general population level

 

So, for 1 line item in JTE, the "goal", at the council level, is to recruit your minority ethnicity at least 45% as well as you do the majority population and this was added back in 2019.

Is this "woke"?  I think, scouters who are attempting to be "helpful" and believe in the program, should be working to get more communities involved in scouting.  I think our country would be much better off if we double or triple the number of scouts from minority backgrounds in the program.  I live right next to a urban area ... I would love to see thousands of youth in scouts, getting exposure to the outdoors, performing service projects in their community, etc.  I don't see this as a bad goal at all.

Now, how you obtain that goal is a risk. I know this was attempted back in the 1970s and they changed the program. I haven't seen that yet (other than another citizenship MB ... which there were already too many of).  If that occurs (such as camping no longer required, ending patrol method), then I absolutely agree that your fears are valid and it would be damaging to everyone.  That is what I think we should be watching for vs worrying about being "woke".

In the end, I don't think DEI will be the driver of program changes.  I think plenty of suburban/exurban white kids (actually their parents) are driving the program to be day long merit badge clinics and summer camps just focused on advancement.  As someone who loves the potential of scouting, I see that as a far more serious threat than DEI (at least to date).

Welp... April came and went with no decision.  Any estimate from the court on timing for a ruling?  

Quick update on BSA net unrestricted liquidity ... it ticked up a bit in March.

10 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Scroll down. Thoughts?
 

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2022/05/03/scouters-to-receive-2022-silver-buffalo-silver-antelope-awards-scoutings-top-national-and-territorial-volunteer-honors/?utm_source=scoutingwire&utm_campaign=swvolunteer05042022&utm_medium=email&utm_content=

I would rather see names.  Perhaps Dr. Kennedy for taking the lead on the TCC to help improve BSA's youth protection.  If they want to do something, then give actual names and statements on what was done.  Otherwise, it seems like platitudes.  I won't come down too hard on the BSA.  It is good they did mention survivors as they were awarding individual's whose goal was to minimize payment to survivors.

There are several "books" as well. 

• YPT/barriers to abuse ... Enforce 100%. 
• G2SS... Attempt to follow 100%; however, I'm sure there has been some violations.
• Program books (various handbooks, etc.) ... each Troop has their own spin on the program.  Enforce the procedures/rules your Troop follow based on what the PLC/adults agree upon.

In your case, the scout isn't following your Troop's very reasonable expectation, then they have the choice to leave.  

Now, I was ranting a bit tas I was backpacking with my Troop this past weekend.  I was complaining to one of my ASMs that I am seeing less and less engagement from scouts in our overnight activities but far more in day only merit badge sessions.  Another leader indicated he has heard similar feedback from Troops in our area (merit badge sessions "selling" out but camporees, overnights lacking attendance).  The ASM said ... well, perhaps the market has changed and you need to change with it.  She said that perhaps scouting should just be merit badge clinics and summer camps going forward.  I didn't like that answer, but I don't know if I have a better one. 

How does this apply ... if you build a Troop program which results in no scouts wanting to be in the Troop ... well, then what's the point?  The example you gave seems pretty clear.  However, if there are rules your Troop has that your PLC doesn't find valuable and just turns kids off of scouting ... then it is ok to reevaluate the rules.  The key is that the rules should be enforced uniformly across all scouts.  That should be clear to the SM, CO and all involved.

Update to Scouts BSA joining requirements opens the door to more young people (scoutingmagazine.org)

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

KNow several outstanding young men who are no longer involved because the 2018 rule would interfere with school, work, and friendships

The 18 - 30 year old age group is prime to help if approached.  One of my biggest complaints of the BSA is that they seem to ignore that demographic.  When I was in my 20s, I didn't have kids, had a TON of free time (compared to now) and was volunteering for various organizations.  BSA never reached out (and I never even thought of it).  I volunteered for sports clubs & FIRST robotics.  If BSA reached out, I could have been a district volunteer or even unit.  I'm convinced that there is huge potential in that group.

4 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I’m now sure how any of that enhances the program towards growth, I’m willing to to listen. But, I don’t like how they separate the ages after the cub ages. Character growth is very dependent on older scouts mentorship and they don’t do a good job there. The UK scouts believe in Patrol Method, but without the older mentors, their program relies heavily on adult mentorship. And that is not the same. 
 

Barry

My thought was primarily Cub Scouts.  They have Squirrels (4 - 6), Beavers (6-8) and Cubs (8 - 10.5).  I wonder if by keeping these groups in smaller age groups, they may see less drop off when they go on to Scouts (10 - 14.5).  I do wonder how the patrol method works by moving 14.5 year olds to Explorers.  Most, if not all, of my PLs are >14.  My SPL is 16 and my JASM is 17 (Eagle).  

I have forever been a fan of UK scouts.  Their transparency, their smaller board, their media, etc.  I also like how they separate their age groups.  Their result ... 3% of available youth in scouts.   BSA is at 1%.  

For my kids, the only way to be 100% safe from CSA is to keep them in my house under constant supervision.  However, that doesn't sound like a great way to raise a kid or for a child to grow into a mature adult.  So, yes, I have to take risks.  They go over to friends' houses where parents are home ... there is no guarantees those adults are safe.  Yes, I trust all of them, but I also know that people with dark intentions can cover them well. 

My kids are in various sports.  There are potential chances for grooming/assault.  I am a coach for one of the teams so I know the training/rules in place that help prevent it ... however, there is always a chance.

BSA/scouting is similar.  They have rules, which if followed, should greatly reduce the risk of CSA.  However, yes, there is still some risk.  I could go on with school, clubs, etc.

Going back to the question ... would I stop participating in scouting if it prevented 1 case of CSA.  Well, I would also have to stop sports, school or my kids going to friends/relative houses (which is probably the highest risk right now).  I am not willing to raise my kids in a locked down state.  That means, yes, I would continue to participate in activities that could, possibly, have some children horrifically impacted by CSA.

I think the real question, the key one, is if BSA can be made safe on a relative basis vs other activity.  I personally believe BSA rules and training do make it as safe if not safer than similar programs and it will get better post bankruptcy.  It won't be perfect AND there could be BSA units out there that are not safe.  As a parent, I would recommend watching your BSA unit to ensure they follow barriers to abuse.  If they do, I would trust them with my children ... even knowing there is still that remote chance something bad could happen.  

2 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Even if you only have two Scouts, go!!

And, did you learn anything interesting about the KC-135R??  (I flew them 😝)

We absolutely will.

I didn't attend but the scouts had a blast.  My son told me that they date back to the 1950s (?) and they hold up better than commercial planes as there are less flight hours and more time spent on maintenance.  The engines were GE and 1980s vintage. Also, I didn't know that the fuel they provide comes from the planes fuel tanks (they basically share their own fuel).   He took a ton of pics on the planes including the lay down position for refueling.

 It was supposed to be a young eagle's event but too windy.  

Many members of our Troop went to a National Guard base 128th air refueling wing to tour and earn aviation merit badge (the airplanes were outdoors).  Next weekend, we have a backpacking trip ... only 5 scouts out of 44 signed up.  We have more adults interested than scouts...

If this is picked up by Netflix it will get a major audience.  If it stays on a website, its distribution will be limited.  I'll have to see the whole documentary before I pass judgement, but BSA should be prepared to respond.

I moved the "On My Honor" trailer/comments to a new topic.

SCOUTER Forum

8 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

If this is the wrong spot for the question, Mods please feel free to move it to the right one.

When will the transcript of the session that the CHURCHILL PLAN was discussed and how do I go about getting a copy of the transcript? No one in my council is mentioning anything about it, and when I do ask questions about it, I am told I am "spreading rumors," and "no one knows what is actually going to happen." Considering the leash that national does have over councils, national gets its way.

 

 

What was presented in court wasn't the Churchill Plan ... at least that term was never listed in any slide they displayed in court.  The Churchill Plan dates back to 2020 or perhaps before.  What was shown in court was from a senior executive meeting held at Philmont in August of 2021.  This was not a big group of volunteers ... this appears to have been a meeting of senior staff/volunteers.  My guess is only those watching the court hearing plus a few others have any clue what was discussed. 

I am also curious if/when the hearing recordings are released.

7 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

I think that is a reference to any appeals via District Court.

Not exactly an appeal.  You can read the lengthy twitter thread below which details out the appeals process in bankruptcy.  She includes a comment about BSA's case.  The district court sounds like more of an "approval" of the bankruptcy vs appeal.  I believe the debtor lawyers gets the choice of the path.  What is interesting is that once district approves the bankrutpcy, the appeals process could be moot.  Basically, by the time any appeal can be heard or reviewed, the bankruptcy is done.  

In #BoyScouts bankruptcy, case has been overseen entirely by bankruptcy judge. If she confirms plan, lawyers say they will immediately seek district court approval too.* *Authority for that procedure you ask? Probably a riff on other parts of 28 USC 157. 15/x

Prof. Jacoby on Twitter: "Here is a thread on appeals from bankruptcy court decisions. Cannot say it is by popular demand - more by demand by a popular person! @alahav 1/x" / Twitter

Started new topic here as the hearing is now complete.

Chapter 11 - Part 10

Hopefully this is the last topic on bankruptcy.  The hearing is now closed.  A few remaining items will be filed, tweaking the language in the plan.  Then the bankruptcy judge will rule followed by district (assuming she confirms the plan).   We can use this topic to discuss the case.  If the discussion strays from the legal bankruptcy case (for example, price of Cub Scout books and belt loops) please use new topics.  Thanks in advance for keeping the discussion scoutlike.

Seemed to be going well until right now.  Judge seems to see some issues that BSA insurance counsel cannot defend well.  Basically, non settling insurers are saying yes you can transfer the policies but that comes with the benefits and burdens.  It is really a debate around language in the plan.  It may require some clarifications in the plan.  BSA doesn't disagree ... sounds like it is just working through proper language.

Judge never entered in order (That she recalls) that assigns a contract & also by the way here is a bunch of stuff about it.  Basically, she wants to say the trust is assigned the rights.  She is concerned there is professions touching on post assignment and she doesn't do that.  If there are issues with insurance honoring their contract ... take it to state court.  Judge is working through this out loud as there could be some mechanics about payment of claims.  

I don't see this as a roadblock, more like a speed bump.  She doesn't seem to agree with how it is written today.  4:30 eastern ... still hopeful arguments close today.

BSA, Ad Hoc LC, Century lawyers presented so far this morning.  Very convincing arguments to approve the plan.  They are pointing out clear factual errors that were made by opponents.  It feels like this is wrapping up today.

Judge says ... I have 45 mins more today.  I just heard a "Jesus Christ".  So, it will go on tomorrow.

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Feedback is a gift. Commentary to improve services should not be considered "hate."

But it does gets frustrating when you provide feedback, especially feedback you have been specifically asked for, and that feedback gets ignored. Best example is Instapalms. 94% of those polled were either Against (18%) or Strongly Against (76%), yet they did it anyway.

IT issues have been around since before SCOUTNET 2000 that came out in 1998. Experts in the field have offered solutions and were turned down.

The good news is that BSA is making improvements.  They do have online applications for youth and adults.  They did buy Scoutbook which greatly improved tracking advancement.  I'm glad they see this as an area to invest.  However, I think they have a long way to go.

I hope post bankruptcy, they further fund IT including providing better IT services to councils.  This should not require $XXM of solutions.  There are much smaller organizations with much less funding that have better IT solutions.  

The signing up of volunteers is typically their first experience with BSA.  Nearly every volunteer I signed up had issues with training not working, payments, delays with COR approvals, etc.  

I guess my thought is that the volunteer signup is likely an easy area to address vs attempting to relook at major program content, merging councils, etc.