BubbaBear

yaworski is right. Although we want boys in Scouting, they have to be there to learn what is is Scouting teaches. If they can't get with the program. We had a boy who was a Life Scout, SPL and an officer in his JROTC unit at school...he insisted on running the troop like Mussolini. What was worse was that he refused to see the problems it caused. We lost about a third of the troop before we finally gave him the choice to shape up or ship out...he shipped out. Unfortunately, his understudies stayed long enough to destroy the troop.

One more thing I forgot...you might want to give the boys a brief reminder tht meanness and "teasing cliques" are considered "hazing", something that is not tolerated in Scouting...something that can lead to dismissal.

I've had to do that, and follow up on it by dismissing a boy who would not stop.

Laura...you've got a problem there.

If you want a "team", then you will have to tackle

the problem as a team.

I've got some questions for ya...first off, if your troop is small, why are you going to two different camps? Sounds as if you are allowing for division of the "team" by attending two camps pretty much independently.

Secondly, since the troop is run by the boys, what does your PLC think about the situation?

I personally would start by having a ceremony honoring those accomplishments made at camp. I would be sure to have a seperate set of awards honoring those "model" campers, the ones whom made the effort to win the "honor troop" award although they didn't. You may even want to create a standing "Teamworker Award" to encourage such behavior.

Remember that the destrcutive behavior should be held to Scout Spirit when it comes to promotion in rank.

Be sure to give your SPL all the support he needs.

Ultimately it should be his and his staff's decision as to how to deal with this problem. If you adults get too involved, you will take away the boys "ownership" of the troop, something you don't want to do. If the situation becomes unbearable, it may require action on the part of the Troop Committee.

Thanks fellas...a non-scouting friend of mine sent

that to me...I modified it slightly. Tried it out on a bunch of boys I worked with today, they loved it. BTW, acco...sarcasm is my middle name!

An Indian water bearer had two large pots, each one hanging from the ends of a pole which he carried across his shoulders.

One of the pots had a crack in it, while the other was perfect and always returned a full amount of water.At the end of the long walk from the stream to the village, the cracked pot always arrived only half full. For two years, this went on daily, with the bearer delivering only one-and-a-half

pots of water to the village.

Of course the perfect pot was proud of its accomplishments, knowing that it always returned a full pot of water. The cracked pot, on the other hand, was ashamed of its imperfection, and miserable because it could only do half of what it made to do.

After two years, it finally found the nerve to speak to the Indian bearer, down by the stream.

"I'm ashamed of myself", the pot said, "and I want to appologize to you. I have been able to deliver only half the water because this crack in my side causes the water to leak out all the way to the village. Because of my flaw, you have to do more work, and you don't get the full value for your efforts."

The bearer replied, "Did you notice that there were beautiful flowers only on your side along the path to the village? That's because I have always known about your flaw, and I planted flower seeds on your side of the path. Every day we walk from the stream to the village, you've watered them.

For two years now, I have been able to pick these flowers and enjoy them with all the other villagers. Without you being just the way you are, there would be no beautiful flowers to brighten up our days."

Each of us has our own unique flaws. We are all cracked pots, but is is these cracks and flaws that make life interesting and rewarding. Accept people for what they are, look for the good

in each of them.

Rooster7...

I agree with you. If there is one thing I insist on it is respect. Of course, respect is best learned thru example. In the "Take off your hat" example, a simple "Please" added would have shown that respect for the adult.

In the matter of the hat indoors,it is the same thing; a matter of respect (or courtesy) which many have forgotten.

I have always understood that the hat remains on when serving on the color guard, or under arms.

Obviously, the latter does not apply in Scouting.

I have to agree with K9...we do not do enough in the way of public relations. When I was Scoutmaster, I made a point of getting the boys to do things in the public's eye. I've even gotten state, county and city officials to attend ceremonies.

The local United Way just cut funding with the "reason" that we are not visible. Sure it may be an excuse, but the truth of the matter is "we aren't". My troop got in the local news at least five or six times in a year and a half.

Newspapers sell news. Make some and I'm sure they will respond.

Troutmaster, you live in an area that is nationally notorious for (forgive me) the wierd,

unexpected and shocking. Maybe it is a blessing that you don't get into the news?

The best thing about Woodbadge for me was that I got a new commitment to the concept of Boy Scouting. Also, it gave me the opportunity to work with six other people in demonstrating how cooperation with totally unfamiliar people can lead to success.

By the way, if Baden Powell actually had a favorite patrol, he surely would have changed his mind seeing the Bears of SE326:)

OGE...

A thought just occurred to me...since you haven't been through Woodbadge before, you obviously got your name from somewhere else...just think, we might have to start calling you Ole Grey Buffalo:)

...or if you are really lucky...Ole Grey Bear!

In regards to the ticket thing, you may find that once you have left Woodbadge, you will want to change your ticket to better match what you are currently doing in Scouting...sit back, enjoy and

take it as it comes! Best Wishes.

rlculver415...

Don't give up hope brother. Did you know that you can go to other councils for training? Matter of fact, if you let me know what training you want, I will send you all the info you need to "Come on Down" to SW Florida and get it! After all, your only a hop, skip and a jump from here.

I believe wholeheartedly in training. I've attended Scoutmastership Fundamentals, Woodbadge, have a Doctorate from our University of Scouting Arts, and am working towards a degree from our College of Commissioner Science. I'll leave out all the smaller taining I've done.

Mamafox is right on the mark: volunteer to train someone. It could be the most important thing you could share with other adults in Scouting.

Caution: Make the training fun, we adults are no more than big kids:)

buffalo2,

Our Council, Southwest Florida, has modeled after a true university. Our University of Scouting Arts (USA) participants work towards "degrees" in either the College of Scouting Arts or the College of Commissioner Science.

As in a real college, each "student" signs up for

classes which include required courses and electives. New "experimental classes" are created each year and presented as elective classes. Once you have completed degree requirements for a particular college, you are awarded a diploma in a "graduation ceremony". It is possible to complete requirements in one weekend session, but to earn the Doctorate Degree (Phd), four years of attendance must be completed with all degree requirements and either a Thesis or Project completed for the Phd.

Attendance has been increasing ever since its conception. Because some classes are deemed "required", they are generally the most attended ones. They include Cub, Boy Scout and Venturing topics and can be specialized in.

Experimental classes can become required or permanent elective classes, depending on attendance and interest.

Scouting magazine will be publishing an article this coming Spring about our USA.

Bubba

When I started this thread, it was so that I could get an idea as to what the general consensus of opinion was on this debating this issue on the internet.

The only people whom responded thus far are the same ones whom voiced their opinion over and over again. Furthermore, I specifically asked for no debate here, but the same ones must occupy air time with their personal struggles.

Quiote, I do not know where you decided that I was pro-gay in Scouting, I have stated the opposite time and again.

My "argument" with Bob White has turned sour. I proposed a compromise so that the two of us would not continue it on "on the air". Why is it important that any of the rest of you get involved with our personal argument?

I appreciate the fact that debate is "wholesome".

This debate, however, is not.

As I had said earlier, I advocate "local decision making" over "national decision making".

I think it best that I let you all "have your fun" at the expense of those whom are in this for more simplistic reasons.

Bob White, no need to respond to my compromise proposal, you stand your ground, it is the right thing to do. The same for the rest of you.

I hope to meet you all someday in an atmosphere that is conducive to the Scouting Program.

BubbaOstrich

On another note...I asked a very simple question, looking for a very simple answer...look what I got.

Am I THAT provocative, or is it that some of you just need to get away from debating a subject that does not have an outcome appealing to all?

THIS WAS A RHETORICAL QUESTION...DO NOT ANSWER!!

Bob White...

I posed a compromise to you...if you or Rooster stop debating this issue in this forum, then I will agree to stop also. I got no direct response from you or Rooster.

My continuance to post is a result of not getting a direct response; and frankly I haven't debated the subject since offering the compromise to you all.

You say that YOU are having a hard time accepting my sincerity on this subject??? Funny, I was thinking the same of you. Your compromise sounds more like sarcasm to me; thus my "antagonizing " remark.

If my comments sounded harsh, that is because they were meant to be. You asked me why I attacked you personally, and I responded with a quick appology. You and I would be better off not communicationg with each other because we do not communicate with each other.

You and I need to stop being so suspicious of each other. I do not doubt your integrity, and consequently, you should not doubt mine.

Now, if you wish to accept my compromise, I will discuss yours.

Bubba

(This message has been edited by BubbaBear)

Packsaddle...Sorry! I had a sub-senior moment.

That was supposed to be an agreement with your statement...I got off on a wild tangent.

Bob White...I am sorry, I didn't know that you were part of the decision making group for this forum also...Do us all a favor and take a break from being a pundit.

I asked a simple question; your antagonism wasn't necessary.

It is clear that you want this issue to continue on regardless of what the silent people say. Those of you who have been vocal about this issue needn't answer this question, your vote has already been cast.

I will refrain from answering you questions since you have been so reluctant in answering mine. Have a nice day.

Bubba(This message has been edited by BubbaBear)

Jerry...

Scouting is about the boys. Why don't you ask your son what he thinks about the situation?

I had a similar situation with my son; He liked the troop he and I were in...I didn't. We had a talk about it... I moved on to another position in Scouting (outside the troop) while he stayed in the troop and earned his Eagle (with good ole Dad shadowing him all the while).

It turned out to be a win-win situation for both of us.

Simple question...no room for discussion...

"Should debate over the homosexual issue be stopped in this forum?"

PLEASE- NO Debate over this question.(This message has been edited by BubbaBear)

Packsaddle...I think that is a keen observation.

Someone asked...where does it all stop? You have brought up the other end of the rainbow..."Where does it all begin".

There is no end, only beginnings. Life is a dynamic situation which only mutates to its surroundings.

My Scoutmaster, REDDOG Maynard, passed this along to me...I'm passing it along to you all...

(Author Unknown)

Be careful of your thoughts,

for your thoughts become your words.

Be careful of your words,

for your words become your actions.

Be careful of your actions,

for your actions become your habits.

Be careful of your habits,

for your habits become your character.

Be careful of your character,

for your character becomes your destiny.

It says a lot, doesn't it??

YIS,

Bubba

NJCubScouter-

Local School Board???.....NOW we have something to worry about!!...ONLY KIDDING!

Godd Luck my friend! (Freudian Slip??)

By the way, to understand the "Passing the Knot", read Roberts Rules of Order under "Passing the Gavel".

Bubba

People...please follow the rules of this thread...go back to the beginning and read before posting...you only get one post here. (I am an exception because I am acting as Scoutmaster)

littlebillie...I forgive you THIS time!!

Bubba

I would be proud if you would, Ed.

Many scouters down here, look to REDDOG as another

Green Bar Bill. Please give REDDOG credit for passing that one along. I've adopted him as my mentor and Scoutmaster.

Appreciatively YIS,

Bubba

OleGreyEagle and Ed...You wouldn't beleive this but just yesterday I was singing John Kays words to "Power Play"..."What gives you the right,HEY YOU, to stand there and tell me what to do? What gives you the power, to stop me from living like I do? Remember if you plan to stay, those that give can take away. Don't bite the hand that feeds you!"

I am not taking anything very hard. Ironically, I found some solice in Bob White's words. It is BSA's right, given by the Supreme Court of this land I love, to stand for what they do...and I believe and respect that.

What I am saying at this point is: "I have said all I can, and wish to." Anything else will only be subjective and lend no support to anything in this argument. I was trying to be objective about this topic.

Would I expect Bob White or Rooster to leave because I am challenging them to? Not reallly.

I am intelligent enough to know that they or TJ or anyone in this particular forum has an unwaiverable point of view and will not or cannot back down for their particular reasons. I would like to say that I respect that, but I don't. What I respect is peace. In other causes I would be willing to "fight to the death", but as littlebillie said, there are no winners in an argument of this nature. WE ALL LOSE...and the ones I am concerned about are the boys.

I believe that in order for the boys to be effective future leaders, they will have to be able to get past their own gut feelings (as Abraham Lincoln did) and make decisions that are effectively like "hog grease in the gears of time".

Anyone that can't understand what I am trying to say is simply not on the same wavelength as I am (in my case I think it is AM )

I am NOT leaving the forum all together, I just will not debate THIS topic anymore. You will likely find me in another area of the forum, time and again.

There is no one that I do not learn from...I may not always hear what I want but I learn in the listening to those words.

I hope you all can see that I am not leaving on a sour note, I ain't. (gotta sound Southern now and then)

My e-mail is : jakel@nut-n-but.net Drop me a note if ya want to chat.

A true leader (as MY Scoutmaster tells me), remembers the difference between 1) Retreat,

2)Tactical Withdrawl, and 3)Retrograde Operation.

One last thought (my Scoutmaster, REDDOG Maynard passed this along along also, a quote of unkinow origion):

Be careful of your thoughts,

for your thoughts become your words.

Be careful of your words,

for your words become your actions.

Be careful of your actions,

for your actions become your habits.

Be careful of your habits,

for your habits become your character.

Be careful of your character,

for your character becomes you destiny.

Sounds like a good Scoutmaster minute to me!

In his words...

See ya on the trail!

Bubba

People, I can no longer, in good faith, debate this issue over the internet.

I have made the arguments I felt pertinent to the issues at hand. This thing will go on ad nauseum unless you have the strength of mind to stop doing so yourselves.

If you are true leaders, you will walk away too...and "No", I will not come back under a new name.

It's been interesting!

Bubba