BubbaBear

Bob White: Point well taken, Actually what I was alluding to is that the Scouting Program is as well rounded as any youth (or even adult) development program that ever has been (kinda like the Dale Carnegie Saleman Course, so to speak). If the National Office was to recognize the reference I made (to the Scouting principles) as what the program is all about, then they would formulate a "national policy" that gives the decision to the COs. In that way, the COs will face public opinion, not the BSA, and will not be breaking National Standards. The worst that can happen is it doesn't w

Be gentle with me, y'all!

Quiote, I give you the United States of America...a national organization comprised of fifty defined sub-organizations known as states. Each of these states have a supprotive role in the existence of the national organization, form their own local leadership and effectively handle their own internal problems through their own constitutions. Each provides support to each other in time of emergency, but at all times are aware of the necessity of loyalty and adherence to rules made by the parent organization. Some of the states impose capital punishment, some don't. Even still, they hold togeth

Oh God! The Baptists are here! :) I assume none of you are going to disagree with my assessment of how to resolve this issue? I don't see how you can. Also, I agree with tj when he says that some of the nicest people I met are Morman, Actually I'ld like to meet Marie Osmond!!

OGE: I couldn't re-write what I said because my wife read it and now I am grounded! Besides, I think my fingers were typing faster than my mind could see the words! Sctmom: I appreciate that article, I truly did not know any of that. One thing comes to mind though; why would any man in his right mind want more that one wife? Owwwwwe! Sorry honey! Now I have a lump on the side of my head. To any LDS members reading my posts: I mean no disrepsect to your religion, I respect your right to practice your faith as you wish. Truly.

Folks, there is a third choice in the abortion scenario. A person can continue practicing Pro-Life without fear of being removed as a citizen of the U.S. There is no laws against doing so. In the case being debated here, that clearly isn't applicable. I think you should avoid using that example, it does'n fit here. Once again, I have said that I do not believe that our discussion here will be directly responsible for any action on the part of BSA. I do, however, know that our great country is founded in compromise, and unwittingly, I think that national has the answer

Rooster: Early on in this sub-forum, you stated that there comes a point in time when we need to educate our children before someone else does. Unless we control every moment of our children's contact with anyone else, how can we prevent them from learning from others? If we trust that the day care center we leave our children to is protecting our child while we are not there, and one of the "teachers" provides an immoral lesson, how can we stop that from happening? What if that day care center is a ministry of the very chuch that we were raised and married in? Another very good

OK, OGE...I'll buy that. Maybe you know (I don't), when the LDS Church banned polygamy, was it because of moral reasons or political (i.e. was it mandated through law or did church members decide it wasn't right)? You didn't comment on my explaination about the women subject...was it explanatory enough? I don't expect anyone to agree with my reasoning, however it is my own and I stick by it. I guess the relevant point there is that although I disagree with BSA's policy of letting women be leaders, I am compromising (in my mind) until that "glacier comes again".

I would like to offer something to you all. Recently, I completed my Doctorate of Scouting Arts (Phd for you educated which translates to "Piled Higher and Deeper"). The subject of my thesis is: "The Need for Unbiased Chartering Organizations in Delivering Scouting's Promise", or "An Impartial Investment in Tomorrow's Leaders". I think you will find it interesting. If you would like a copy, send me a letter with $1 postage to: Jake Lekan 32240 Washington Loop Road Punta Gorda, Florida 33982 Be sure to include your mailing address, don't be alarmed, I have given you mine

I am not aware of all the details of this debate as obviously some of you are. I am curious about one thing though; was it the Morman Church that threatened to pull out of scouting over this morality issue? Isn't polygamy immoral because it "conflicts with generally or traditionally held moral principles"? The Catholic Church, which I am a non-practicing member of (at least at the church we been attending) currently teaches that "we love and accept homosexuals but not approve of the practice of homosexual relations". Now let me share this with you (Rooster,perk up), while my two ol

Bravo, Bob White. I take back anything snide I've ever said about you fowel!

NJCubScouter, Let's just say that by your morse code reference, we are close in age (although sometimes I can't remember that far back)! I drew that conclusion by reading your profile and seeing that most of your scouting references are of the "youth type" and that you have been an ASM (which is typical of youth moving into adulthood). Guess I was wrong but as you said that is irrelevant. TJ, Thanks for your assessment of my being, it is in fact true, I can disassociate myself to be able to view both sides. I really do not wish to debate this anymore. I have said my peace and f

OGE, Praise be! I finally got someone to talk about something other that the gay issue! I am not a misogynist (thank you for teaching me a new word). I genuinely like women as a matter of fact. I just believe that cooking meals for the boys while on a camping trip, driving into town two or three times for supplies, teaching the boys college beer drinking songs or playing grab-ass with the kids during a meeting are not some of the things I would like to include in my active portrayal of Boy Scouting. (I have experienced this) Getting back to the origional topic of "Childhoo

TJ, You bring up an interesting point; how do I or you or anyone involved with these posts know whether we are speaking to an adult or child? For instance, if you pull up my profile, you will see a very clear statement about me and scouting. On the other hand, who are you? NJCubScouter, appears to be a young male adult... During the course of our conversation, I asked my Eagle Scout son, "How would you feel about having a gay scoutmaster? Son, how would you feel about having a gay boy in your troop or crew?" He replied (as I would have expected), "I don't know." It seems to m

I'm sorry, T.J., as I understand the issue, it is over an avowed adult homosexual being a Scout leader, however, I see the inference you are making. You have posed some very good questions. I will try to answer them without rhetoric, but first let me say some more. "Immoral" is defined by Webster as "conflicting with generally or traditionally held moral principles". Now I did not make these general or traditional morals, they were made over time. Until time changes what is moral then homosexuality will be viewed as "immoral". A salesman is walking through Maine. He comes accros

I am no more a fool than you are, my friend. Paraphrasing comments is convenient, however I reiterate; Show me the benefit to the boys. At 9 and 10 children are talking about sex, and what is worse, experiencing it. Adolescent youth struggling with their sexuality is not something to take lightly. May I remind you that BSA Youth Protection policy directs us to refer issues of professional nature onto those qualified to handle such things. I know of no Scoutmasters qualified as Psychiatrists or Psychologists, although I am sure that there are some. Should we spawn a new forum involving the

You will take issue with a couple of my comments. I tried to edit because some of the logic is twisted but it did not work.

N.J., it is interesting how you naturally assume that I was making reference to physical harm toward gays. Your argument leads me to believe that gays could not direct physical harm towards heterosexuals. However, either side of the coin can show up. This issue is not about the boys. All else being equal, there would be no benefit in what the boys experience in Scouting if gays were accepted. So adding gay leaders will not provide a direct benefit to the program, but will be a victory (and benefit) for the gay community. I believe that more harm could be done by undermining a system

No, I mean some physical stunt like Columbine. Do you care to address my last question, N.J.?

Oh, one more thing...under that premise, shouldn't any questionable person be allowed under the same approval and insurance policy?

OGE, the only thing I can see is that the program still belongs to the BSA and therefore the BSA would still be liable in a chain of law suits.

Thank you all for your responses, and once again I respect them all. I am not suggesting anything in particular, except that I believe that we have to be careful as to how zealous we get on either side of an issue. Although you all may be able to debate this topic with some restraint, I assure you that there is at least one person from either side (somewhere reading these postings) getting worked up to the point where he/she becomes willing to do something desperate in order make a point. I don't know about you, but I have personally heard about enough of these kinds of inci

No appolgies needed...Thanks for the clarification!

Your comments are well taken. I suppose that each individual case has to be examined in order to determine efficiency. How many scouters do you know whom are refusing to relinquish a job to someone who really wants one? I know a few. On the matter of policy and my own accuracy, I have attempted to get access to a copy of the BSA Policies and Procedures but am not having any success. The local Scout Shop said that they used to sell them but can not find them in the inventory booklet any longer...they are checking for me. In the interim, if any of you have a relatively current copy, hows ab

sctmom, I'm sorry, as concise as your reply was I am having difficulty understanding your meaning. You say that "you've never heard these topics discussed locally... but have witnessed it"?