swilliams

Combined with the requirement now that all adults who attend scout events have to be registered... yeah that's great!!  Our Troop wants and needs parents to be involved but can't afford it, and if you ask for them to volunteer then turn around and tell them they have to pay for it, that's not going to go over well.  At all.

We're in a position with the Crew already where only ONE of the five consistently involved adults has a kid in the program, and that kid graduates this year.  I suspect the decision will be made to fold the crew.

My boys like the old-ish uniforms.  Not the old canvas pants and cotton shirts, and not the stuff they started offering when the branding switched - where the shirt just says 'BSA'.  The shirt is some sort of synthetic or synthetic blend, as are the pants, but there isn't any lycra or spandex in them.  Two gripes are that the pants are ill-fitting (but that has always been the case, regardless of version) and they tear/wear a little too easily.

When everything changed the last time, I scooped up two shirts and a pair of pants.  I did end up having to buy a second pair of pants off eBay.  Don't know if we'll need one of the two shirts.  I might be willing to part with a shirt that says "Boy Scouts of America" above the pocket if anyone is interested.  😂

6 hours ago, ramanous said:

So I think one suggestion you're making is to let the patrols self-organize naturally as much as possible?

We actually have the opposite problem than you, which is our SM refuses to use the patrol method in favor of the SPL running the troop directly (the PLs have no responsibility.) He's been a scouter for a long time, including woodbadge, so its confounding to me (I asked him privately to explain it; that was big mistake.) I'm speculating the Key3 want the troop to be an Eagle Scout factory so they see PL, SPL, etc as just requirements for rank advancement.

Take baby steps wherever you can.  I'm not Scoutmaster, nor even an Assistant Scoutmaster.  Our SM, like yours, expects the SPL to lead the entire Troop, and the scout who was doing so just quit last Tuesday.  It's too much to expect one scout to rein in 30-35 younger ones.  Very, very few of our older scouts will come to the weekly meetings anymore because it's "babysitting" (with all scouts in one big, unruly group).

So here's an example of a baby step.  I create and run an orienteering event every year.  I didn't even ask permission, I just did it and invited whomever wanted to come.  It's become one of the scouts favorite outings, and we're heading out tomorrow for this year's course.  Because of the older scouts' lack of participation, I only have two coming tomorrow, but I have 18 younger scouts who will attend.  A full half of them are the cross-over scouts from merely one week ago. 

I've reached out to a handful of scouts who RSVP'd 'yes' and asked them to be leaders, heading out with groups of 3-4 scouts.  A couple that I reached out to are 12-13, and one is still only Tenderfoot, but I'm hoping they'll gain something from being asked to lead: 1) a sense of pride that I think they can do the job, 2) confidence from having done the job, and 3) a greater sense of what the older scouts have been putting up with.  🤣

I'm also leading a backpacking trip on the AT, for the older scouts.  This I did run by the SM, and got him to agree that due to the number of miles we're hiking (roughly 15 from Friday evening to Sunday morning) it would be a bit much for the newer scouts.  His view was that as long as he didn't have to do any of the planning or go on the trip, he was fine if I did.  With a second registered adult, of course. 

On 3/15/2024 at 9:25 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

I have done that section of the AT!

This may not too much for WEBELOS who have never backpacked, if you limit their pack weight by having a good gear shakedown, and limit their weight to about 25% of their body weight.  This means others may have to help carry gear.

Or, you could let them join you for just one night on the trail!  Have them backpack up with you to the first campsite.  In the morning, they pack up and go back down to trailhead.  This means you'd need two more adults, but they could ferry your cars to Crater Lake, and save you that logistical pain on the first day.

There's a million ways to skin that cat. 

And, are you using this tool with layers?

https://nps.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=6298c848ba2a490588b7f6d25453e4e0

 

Isn't Raccoon Ridge the best spot?  When it's just my daughter and I we stealth camp in a little grassy spot just south of where the ridge opens up to the views. 

I use AllTrails, plus I have paper maps of the AT from Swatara Gap in PA all the way through the Berkshires.  That link is very cool, though.  Going to take a closer look at it after dinner.

On 3/11/2024 at 2:42 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

"High Adventure" is whatever your Scouts say it is 😜

Backpacking by itself is not.  But backpacking 15 miles over a weekend on the Appalachian Trail (AT) might be HA for your 13 year old's who are new to the experience.

It might have to be backpacking 50 miles on the AT over 5 days and four nights for your older Scouts to say it is HA. 

If your Scouts want a High Adventure experience, let them help define what it means to them.

Thank you!  That's sort of why I was asking.  Our older scouts want to do an AT backpacking trip in two weeks.  Delaware Water Gap to at least Camp NoBeBoSco but more likely to Crater Lake.  3.6 miles Friday evening to the Backpacker campsite.  9.1 the second day.  2.0 Sunday morning.  Worried that might be too much for our Webelos who are crossing over tonight and have never backpacked.  Younger son suggested making it "high adventure" and limiting it to scouts 14 and older.  

I'm a little surprised younger son wants to go.  My boys went to Philmont last summer.  The scouts narrowly voted to do one of the hardest treks available: ended up being just over 100 miles, summiting both Tooth of Time and Baldy.  Little time for program.  Then the scouts who had voted for this one backed out of the trip, lol.  When he came home, son said he was never backpacking again.  Looks like he has the bug, though.

38 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Maybe it is old-school me. Apparently it doesn't matter to that Council and it works for them.

If Council asked me to volunteer for an adult-only Easter Egg Hunt,  Costume contest fundraiser at OUR Camp, I would assume it was an April Fool Joke and hang up.

If Council asked me to volunteer for Family Easter Egg Hunt,  I would be hiding milk chocolate bunny ears (eggs? real scouts eat ears! Arrrg!) on an orienteering course.

Different strokes for different folks ...YMMV,

Hmmmm..... Orienteering this year will be in two weeks.  Now you've got me thinking.  

Speaking of, I need to stop messing around and go finish the new/revised map.  This will be the third year, and we've done two different courses.  I think too soon to bring back the course from year before last. 

Anyway, the ribbons do look kind of neat, but they definitely remind me of my dad's military uniform.  As a female who wasn't involved in scouting until my boys joined, and who wasn't an official uniformed leader until a few years ago, I have no knots.  I did receive a same-sized patch that has a stylized "WM" on it that stands for our old District and was an award for service.  It is sitting with the certificate and my running trophies.  All two of them, lol.

Along these same lines, is backpacking considered high adventure?  Or can it be?  If it's not high adventure in and of itself, are there added components that would place it in that category?

Thank you, @InquisitiveScouter and @RememberSchiff for this!  Son created an account and posted here.  Let him know if the link should be posted in a different spot.    I guess I need to be careful now what I say, since he'll be able to read this forum. 🤣

Approval to fundraise came last night.  Son has swimming today and tomorrow (Meet of Champions!!) but will get the GoFundMe up and running Sunday.  The scout who did the other Eagle project there gave my son the name of a local lumber yard that will give him a break on the price of the 4X4s, and he found out the guy who owns NJ Gravel and Sand (where he sourced the rock and crushed oyster shell) is an Eagle Scout.  He's giving my son a good price on the materials.  Delivery will be a beast, but no break there.  Diesel fuel is the price it is.

Swimming is over after this weekend, so that gives him back over 8 hours a week.  He said he'll start working after school with a couple friends, then have the Troop scouts come do weekends as weather permits.  Lucky for him my husband and I are both registered. Also lucky for him (and unlucky for us) I'm self-employed, and husband is out of work at the moment, so at least we won't be held up by adult schedules.  

Ugh.  He confused which signatures are needed.  Only beneficiary and unit leader before sending fundraising to Council.

Another edit: he's right.  He was looking at the Council website which says (in part)

6. If the “public” is to be asked to assist with funding the project (e. outside of the Unit, chartering organization, beneficiary or Scout’s family), there MUST be a Fundraising Application completed.
   If it is anticipated that there will be Fundraising in excess of $2500, the District Advancement Chair must sign your Fundraising Application in the Authorized Council Approval section.

    

On 2/21/2024 at 5:41 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Agreed...

But, perhaps the reason they have bumped this up is because of the level of fundraising he needs to do.  Project costs more than $2500, right?

Didn't you say fundraising that amount needed district approval where you are?  Well, only professionals can approve fundraising projects, I believe.

Form says  needs signature by "Authorized Council Approval*" and then "*Councils may delegate approval to districts or other committees according to local practices."

We do not know what your local practices are...  

Please talk to someone on the phone.  Dithering over email is not getting anyone anywhere...

 

After talking to many someones on the phone - just about everyone we know that has any connection at all to scouting - an exec from the Venture Crew district sent an email that convinced our District Advancement Chair to approve the swim club as a beneficiary.  Son's project was approved, but the DAC didn't sign the fundraising application page.  Son has already sent an email with several questions to his Eagle Coach, but if you all don't mind continuing to offer up advice I'd like to pose the same questions here that son sent.

Guide to Advancement says the scout should not start fundraising before getting approvals.  Technically, we still don't have full approval since the page wasn't signed.  Once the page IS signed, the application for fundraising says it needs to be sent to Council at least two weeks before fundraising is to begin.  So I'm still concerned about time.  Son asked the Eagle Coach whether he's aware of any way the approval for fundraising can be sped up.  Is that two week time-frame typically a hard and fast rule?  

I just realized as I'm typing this that neither son nor I thought to ask if he can start the project without the fundraising approval.  For example, can he start marking the layout for the court and doing the excavation?  There is a local company that will donate the use of a small excavator, and we already own survey stakes, line, etc. from a garden I put in last year.  A fellow scout has some kind of leveling system used in grading. 

Off to have son send another email...

The Eagle Project has been “escalated to Council” by the Council Advancement Chair, despite the other scout’s project having been done in the same location, despite the “business” making space for kids from a special needs camp to use the facility, and despite our Troop being given permission to do free swim tests at the location.

Two Advancement Chairs have now looked at it and can’t make a decision, but are giving it to?… God only knows who, but if they were going to say yes, it seems they would have done it already.

You know what?  To those saying “Your son needs to take care of this, not you” I want to say that this situation he is in reminds me exactly of an abusive relationship I had in the past.  And as hard as it is, sometimes the only thing to do is to cut ties and walk away. Not stay in the relationship and think you can make it better. 

I’m sorry my 17 year-old isn’t comfortable taking on a Council full of adults. As capable as he is, he’s a kid still. A respectful kid who isn’t going to fight with adults.  Shame on them. Not on him, and not on me for trying to find a way to help him get the project off the ground in the face of adults who want to put their own ego and importance ahead of what is fair to the scout. 

Back to Camping Merit Badge…. younger son connected in Scoutbook to the fourth counselor, scanned and sent his workbook.  Haven’t heard anything - not even acknowledgement that it was received. 
 

At this point, I’m just going to sign up to be a merit badge  counselor.  I’m going to request hiking, camping, and textiles. 

13 hours ago, Thunderbird said:

You don't need approval by the local council if all of your contributions come from:

• the beneficiary
• the candidate
• the chartered organization
• the candidate’s parents, guardians, or relatives
• the unit or individuals in the unit

Guide to Advancement section 9.0.2.10 Fundraising Issues

His plan was to send the GoFundMe to pool members.  He's building a bocce ball court, and his estimated cost is $2,962.  I wish we were in a position to just pay for it, but we're not.  

It's making me a little crazy that our unit/district/council can't just follow what is set by National.  It leads to so much confusion.  Sometimes I feel like the adults around here like to stick their fingers in the pie a little too much, even as they say "scout led" with their mouths full of pie.  Maybe it's fine that younger son wants to quit.  Less headache all around.

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

@swilliams, sent you DM as well, but for the benefit of others:

If he has all signatures, have him email the Workbook (with pdf of signature page) directly to the Council or District Project Approval Representative.  Contact info on proposal page B.

Give a brief explanation... something like Eagle Project Coach made a commitment to submit on such-and-such a date, but this has not happened.  Ask for a reply email to acknowledge receipt.

He has off from school today for the holiday, right?

When he sends it, have him cc his SM and Unit Advancement Chair.  (again, see contact info page.)

And just make sure you are holding on to any email history sent.  This will buy him extension time, if needed.

Any extension granted may only cover time lost since he submitted his proposal to Eagle Project Coach.  His other impediments on previous projects will probably not carry any weight.

-----------------

Also, some process notes... "Council" should not see his workbook until after project is complete (even if that is their process.)  This is all in the hands of volunteers at this point.  Specifically, the Council or District Project Approval Representative, who is most likely a volunteer.

-------------------

Have a heart to heart with your son, and make sure he is committed to this.  It is worth doing!  If he gives up, he will regret it for the rest of his life, and be bitter about the people who have let him down thus far.  Convince him to go down fighting.

If he does have today off from school, after his sending in the Workbook, turn him to his Merit Badges.  He has a lot to do! 

The Eagle Coach says he emailed it to the District Advancement Chair.  The DAC says he never got it.  And here's the thing I wanted to FIGHT but my son asked me not to.   Our District WILL NOT allow a scout to submit the proposal paperwork directly on their own.  

For fundraising, Council says under $2,500 you only need approval from the Unit/CC.  Between $2,500 and $10,000 you need District Approval (DAC and whatever committee is reviewing.  Over that, and you need Council approval.  I have no idea if or whether the fundraising differs from National guidelines.  I know the approval process does.  But that's water under the bridge at this point.

Eagle Coach says he resubmitted.  He says, "When he (District Advancement Chair) confirms receipt I will ask to expedite."  It would have been nice if the "confirm receipt had happened initially.  So we're in a holding pattern for now.

So as long as I'm in "rant" mode....  I'm SO angry right now.  Guide to Advancement says you can't add requirements beyond what National states.  GTA also is clear that scouts are not REQUIRED to use a coach, and it certainly doesn't say anything about a scout not being able to submit his own Eagle Project Workbook.  I started to fight this before, but my son asked me to just 'go along with it' and not make waves, so I did.  But telling a scout that they are self-sufficient, capable young men and women and that Scouts is scout-led, then telling them that an adult has to submit the workbook on their behalf, is just wrong and stupid.

Now over a month of precious time has been wasted.  And for what?  WHAT is this teaching our kids?!  Seriously.  I'm a little over-emotional right now, but I honestly feel like crying.  If you set out to purposely destroy a kid's faith in scouting, you couldn't do a better job than this.

I'm sorry.  I'm sure this isn't scout-like.

Oh boy. Son just got an email from the district advancement chair. He says he never got my son’s workbook. 

7 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

I can't help but think this is a societal problem.  I have work I need done and cash in hand for some handyman work.  Think I can get anyone to show any interest?  My neighbor did have someone working on his house, so I went over and talked to him to do some floor repair.  He actually came over and looked at the job, acted interested and promised to email me an estimate the next day.  I didn't really need an estimate at this point, I was ready to pay whatever he said, since in two years, it's the first time anyone has bothered to look at it.  Well, it's been 2 weeks.  Nothing.  I realize it's not a big job, but it's beyond my physical capabilities now.  Facebook is full of complaints of the same nature.  People won't return your calls.  If they do call, they don't show up when they say they will.  I don't know what the solution is.

That's a good point.  I've been waiting for a roofing company to come give me an estimate.  Called again Friday to see what happened to the first work order that no one ever responded to.  We have one estimate, but the quote was $12,900 for our little 3 bedroom, 1 bath ranch.  Guess our intersecting roofline and the dormer in the attic are just too much work.   And now I've just done something I complain about all the time as a seamstress....  someone questioning the price I charge for my work.  🤣

On 2/16/2024 at 12:20 PM, skeptic said:

If this is an accurate comment, it IS a poor and, to me, unfathomable situation.  Obviously, we are only seeing part of the issue, but I would hope there may be other adults in the shared district that might work to help.  While this Forum might offer some aid, you may find more by reviewing FB for local district and council pages, and maybe nearby units.  I am fairly confident that someone might respond with a post to one of those, though I could be wrong.  Good luck, and please look beyond your own unit for possible aid.  And now, I need to respond to a youth on a merit badge we began last year.  

One of the previous MB counselors we reached out to is no longer a counselor, unbeknownst to him.  Apparently Council only wants each counselor to do three MBs.  He emailed the Merit Badge Dean last week.  Hasn't gotten a response.  We (since my kids don't have a Facebook account) reached out to someone online on the 16th.  Got an immediate response, but then the person didn't send their BSA number or town so they could be connected on Scoutbook.  I asked twice over the last two days.  I can see with Messenger that the person has seen the message.  GRRRR!!!  Trying a second person from Facebook.

On the Eagle Project front...  my son called Council back.  This time he got a response right away, but he found out that Council doesn't have his workbook.  It's with our District Advancement Chair.  Son reached out to this person via email (and cc'd the Eagle Coach) on the 16th.  He finally got a response from the Eagle Coach saying "great that you emailed Mr. F", but hasn't heard from Mr. F.  

SPL has still not received a response from the Scoutmaster.

I know that we're all busy.  I know that it's easy to miss things.  But this is SO much harder than it ought to be and, IMHO, is only teaching them the wrong lessons.  It teaches them it's okay as an adult to ignore kids.  It's teaching my youngest that the effort he needs to put in for a single merit badge is beyond what he is willing to do, and the idea of going through this 13 more times is just too much.  It's teaching them that adult scouters don't have the same set of rules for themselves that they do for the scouts.  

Sorry for the rant.  It's heartbreaking to me to see that my younger one probably isn't going to stay in scouting.  (Not solely because of this.  Our Troop has some extreme issues as well.)

My immediate family has been involved in scouting since 2012, when my oldest son became a Tiger Scout.  Over the past decade+ I've noticed it getting harder and harder to find adult scout leaders who are responsive to scouts, and in the past two years it's become downright shameful.  Our current SPL has been waiting on a response from our Scoutmaster on an email for 8 days, and this is an email the Scoutmaster asked the SPL to send.  (The scout's mom contacted me to ask what they should do.)  My oldest son emailed his Eagle Coach a week ago asking how he should proceed in following up on his Eagle Project Workbook.  Our district doesn't allow scouts to send in their own proposals to Council, so my son only has the word of this Coach that the workbook was even submitted on the day the Coach said he would do it.  Son finally called Council this morning on his own.  He was told, "Give us 15 minutes and we'll call you back."  Guess who hasn't received a phone call?  Merit badge counselors who don't respond for weeks on end, if ever are the norm.  We're on our fourth counselor for Camping - the requirements have been done for months, but my younger son and one other scout from our troop still haven't been able to get signed off and it's holding them back from Star rank.

Older son turns 18 in three and a half months and has been working on his Eagle Project for over a year.  (First two proposals fell apart due to state land restrictions and soil contamination.)  We are starting to panic.  

What can be done?  Nothing?  Chalk it up to life lessons?  We are SO frustrated.  Younger son is ready to call it quits, and I really can't blame him.  Please, any help or advice we can get would not only be appreciated, but is desperately needed.  

On 12/4/2023 at 10:51 AM, Ojoman said:

Perhaps if more volunteers understood the demands of the job coupled with low pay they might appreciate their DE more. Also, with the national decline in volunteerism (in all areas, not just BSA) DE's are finding themselve trying to do what used to be volunteer functions just to hold a district together. There is no question that district volunteer manpower should be a major concern. Of course very few units these days have adequate manpower even at that level. 

Hopefully this doesn't veer into the negative, but...  I don't know who our DE is.  I don't know who our Unit Commissioner is.  I don't know what they do.  I've never seen them outside of maybe once when one came to give a FOS presentation, though that could have been anyone.  I used to know who the SE was, but that was only because I worked in the scout shop for a while, which was housed where Council's office is.  It's hard to even try to tell you what volunteers want to see, when we see nothing to begin with.

On 12/15/2023 at 1:08 PM, Eagle1970 said:

So it sounds like this will stop the Trust to some extent.  In all of the various cases I read about, with appeal after appeal, I'm stuck between Justice Served and Justice Denied.  If we have gone through this for nothing, it will clearly be the latter.

I have a new-found sympathy for those waiting for this case to make it's excruciatingly slow way through the court system.  A matter (nothing BSA related) that I filed in early June 2022 is still crawling along and according to my lawyer may take months yet.  Three of the six people named are no longer in their positions, and even once a determination is reached it's more than likely that any penalty that is assessed, if wrongdoing is found, will be so minor as to add more insult.

"Walk a mile" is an effective but bittersweet teacher, and any small injury I've sustained pales in comparison to what has happened here.  May 2024 find some tiny amount of resolution for CSA survivors. 

1 hour ago, SNEScouter said:

The BSA and others filed their briefs to the Third Circuit Court of Appeals.  They also moved to dismiss the appeals outright on the basis of equitable mootness and that motion is attached.

BSA MTD Appeal.pdf 329.62 kB · 2 downloads

Layman's explanation of "equitable mootness", please?

Welcome.  Almost every good scouting thing I know came from another scouter at some point in time.

I loathe fundraising.  It wouldn't be too terrible if it were just for scouting, but with active kids it's non-stop, year-round.  Scouts twice a year, marching band basket raffle and Gertrude Hawk, lacrosse cornhole tournament and bagels, swimming (both winter high school and summer club swim) swim-a-long pledges and winter sports night donations...  It's too much.  I refuse to continue asking our neighbors and friends to give money, even if they're getting something out of it. 

At our last committee meeting we had a loooong discussion of how much we would ask for our dues, how many adults we were going to have to register, how to pay for the adults and the increased National and Council dues and how much fundraising we could realistically expect.  We decided to make the dues $200, drop two or three committee members from the charter, and continue to pay for adult participants from Troop funds.  We do charge per trip, and I want to see us come up with some trips that are close to free - state campgrounds, stealth camping off the AT for older scouts, etc. 

Maybe even teach them to make acorn flour and forage for dandelion roots and chickweed. 🤣