curious_scouter

On 4/7/2024 at 5:08 PM, qwazse said:

@BetterWithCheddar when my sons were cubs, I only paid for the youth and didn’t need to register to overnight with them. BSA does risk pricing itself out of hey market. It’s not that they compete with sports, but they and sports share a pie with many things that parents want their kids to have.

not to mention the registration fee is just the tip of a very large expense iceberg in scouting.  Fundraising can help, but it's still very expensive to scout.  Uniform is easily $100+, book $25, unit dues $100-150, campouts @$20 ea is $200+ a year, summer camp is $350+ a lot of places.  And that's before any other clothes or gear they need.

So like $700-1000 in ongoing annual fees easily.  A Scouting career can cost a family as much as a year of in state college tuition.  It's a big choice, but I also think it has major benefits to the youth that justify the expense.  There truly is no better place in the world for a young person to learn leadership, gain and learn to manage independence, learn to interact with people different from them (background, ethnicity, even age/generational spans), learn problem solving skills, etc.  Scouting exposes youth to a diversity of experience no other program can and it can lead youth to lifelong healthy habits, help them find their passions for hobbies and professions and a lot more.

It is worth it, but I worry it is progressively becoming a 'country club' activity and that youth who might benefit the most are losing access to it over the increased costs, the heavy parental involvement it is starting to demand, etc. 

Get involved or get informed is my mantra.

Serious concerns for safety or logistics are always welcome, but nit picking the plan the scouts create isn't something I tolerate if you weren't willing to make the time to participate

I live nearby.  Toyed with the idea of going, until I saw the registration fee.  Is the content really worth that much?  I could send 3 adults to Wood Badge for that.

4 hours ago, H2Ocaveman said:

In the southeast cotton is not the best for summer. I think a cotton shirt would be great for a "dress uniform" but not very practical for summer camp flags. 

100%.

I had the performance uniform and loved it.  Lost a buncha weight (yay) so needed a new shirt.  No more of those, bought the cotton one.  Miserable.  Just awful.  I mean it looks good.  You can really crisp it up with the iron, but wearing it in FL is rough.  So hot.  Just soaks up the sweat around the neck and pits and stays super moist.  Strong excitement about the re-introduction of performance options except I suspect it'll take our council shop years to cycle through current stock to where it is available locally and I like... JUST bought this cotton one so will have to stick with it for now.  Hot and gross as it is. 

On 3/23/2024 at 2:30 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

"Annual Planning Conference".  Do not let the name fool you.  We have at least two of these each year... one per Senior Patrol Leader tenure.  And they are challenged to look out at least twelve months, so that we always have six months of program on tap.

We follow a similar process to @InquisitiveScouter's.

• SM and CC conference ahead of annual planning, align on any fundamental shifts in year-to-year policies (similar to IS's notes:  We have standing expectation of 1 outing per month, 1 in-state / 1 out-of-state summer camp, and certain other activities we pre-commit to each year like helping with pack crossover weekend, etc.)  This seed the "parameters" for annual planning.
• SM and PLC conduct annual planning.  CC is invited to participate. 
• We review school, council, district, and OA calendars so we can participate and avoid conflicts
• PLC selects Choice A and Choice B for outing sites for each month of the year
• PLC "swags" in themes for each month as a guideline - these tend to align with the outing... going canoing?  Monthly theme will be aligned to help prep for the outing.  But... these often change in our monthly PLCs.
• Annual planning concludes with list of destinations and other activities
• SM and SPL present annual plan to Committee over the summer, get their approval (this feels more symbolic but technically they could tell us to go back to the drawing board) and then the Committee sets about budgeting, assigning the outdoor chair to start booking reservations for outing locales, etc.
• Throughout the program year we meet every 1st Thursday and the SPL leads detailed planning for the month and sometimes into the next month if there will not be a PLC before a meeting occurs.

I love the note from IS about re-doing annual planning midway through.  It makes a ton of sense to at least have the incoming "administration" look over the remainder of the plan and provide input.  By then, a lot of things are committed.  But I have also seen that by then, a lot of plans have fallen through (places we wanted to book were too popular and we didn't get, things we planned to do got canceled, etc.) and it would be a good way to set the tone with the new SPL as well as revisit "the plan" more holistically.

The committee operates on their own schedule.  I attend at SM but again - this is symbolic.  I'm not on the committee of our unit, I'm there to give the committee an update about the program, make any asks for support and gear, etc.  We try to keep the committee like the wizard of oz - busy but invisible to the youth.

I do not run that meeting and I only speak when asked to or when it's my part of the agenda.

On 3/23/2024 at 9:55 AM, ramanous said:

So I think one suggestion you're making is to let the patrols self-organize naturally as much as possible?

We actually have the opposite problem than you, which is our SM refuses to use the patrol method in favor of the SPL running the troop directly (the PLs have no responsibility.) He's been a scouter for a long time, including woodbadge, so its confounding to me (I asked him privately to explain it; that was big mistake.) I'm speculating the Key3 want the troop to be an Eagle Scout factory so they see PL, SPL, etc as just requirements for rank advancement.

I found self-organizing was key.  Not right away but just ahead of the next elections we had "patrol re-org night".  SPL announced "You are all released from your patrols!"  They were given 30 minutes to "congeal" into new patrols.  It was interesting.  We started with 5 Patrols, we ended with 5 Patrols.  Noone specified max/min Patrol size nor number of patrols - we just let it happen.  I was worried about this as we have 5 patrol kits... so as much as I love the Patrol Method - sometimes practical considerations do play a part. 

As it turned out, the politics and awkwardness involved with being honest and making a change was too much for a lot of the youth to stomach.  Which I get.  Imagine taking your patrol into the patrol room and saying "If anyone wants to change Patrols go ahead"  That's a lot of pressure.  This was a way to allow it without making anyone voice that decision.

In the end, every Patrol seemed happier and stronger.  I'm not sure if it needs to be annual, but I think it was a super healthy way to promote some mobility.

We did not provide a lot of rules.  We said a good guideline was 10-12 max in a patrol, YPT was mandatory as is buddy system.  So the Patrols needed to support all that.  We shoot for 10-12 in a Patrol as it seems on average you'll get 60-80% of a Patrol max at meetings and outings.  Which lends itself to right-sized groups for outings and meetings.

Second tip:  Get your SPL to NYLT.  If Wood Badge is not getting the SM to act right, NYLT might get your SPL to start delegating, etc.

On 3/23/2024 at 2:36 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Fair warning: it is messy, and adults can do it much better... but then it would not be Scouting

This is accurate.

You must get comfortable with failure and imperfection.  But nothing is better than when the Patrols finally get it together.  They will.  You have to let them.  I think way too many adult leaders feel this is the "no fail" zone.  They think they (the leader) will "look bad" if the unit is not super regimental.  Everyone needs to get over that ego.  It's not about us adults.  We're just there to sip coffee, sit as much as possible, and keep them out of traffic.  Our job is to help them fail less each time.  Not to avoid failure.

I honestly don't know how to explain it to an adult any more than I can explain faith to someone without it.  I feel like it's one of those things like Peter Pan once you hit a certain age "practicality" takes the driver seat.  But these are youth and they need and crave fun and adventure.  If you can't understand that's better delivered with a "band of brothers" than force marched into "groups that make sense" it will be hard to convince you.

In my unit, I had to force it.  I had the "luxury" of being the new Scoutmaster and therefore holding the authority to insist we at least try it this way for some period.  I overheard plenty of snide comments from the adults not in favor of letting the Patrol method take root.  I think they have come around.  But it was a lot of "why bother telling him X - he'll do whatever he wants anyway"  They continually even to now try to slip in their own ways.  Particularly if I'm not around.  The one and only outing I missed the menu planning meeting for they slid in Troop-wide meals.  It was miserable.  I think the scouts learned a lesson and I have not seen it since - even in my absence.

I guess the only thing I can say is if you try it, and observe it, you will realize this is how it should be.  And when in doubt, go back to the source.  B.P. said:

Quote

“The patrol system is not one method in which Scouting for boys can be carried on. It is the only method.”

(emphasis mine)

It's going great.  Patrols are all happy with their members.  Sometimes relationships change or scouts mature and their Patrol does not "fit" any more so they drift around a little, but not much.  And we allow them.  The only exception is new scout patrol where you have to have 1 year in or reach First Class before you can elect to move out, but the last two years the crossovers who started in the new scout patrol have chosen to stay in that patrol when they were given the choice and it is building up nicely into a mix of ages and skillets, so it's not JUST all the youngest. 

Campouts work well, even if the Patrol is small.  We do allow Patrols to "team up" with another Patrol if they want but never "split up" - they all team up or they all don't.  The Patrols get to exhibit their personalities.  One Patrol brings this 14 person tent, they are all within YPT age to share so they just pile in.  Another patrol hates setting up a full kitchen, so they find ways to keep setup to a minimum.  If you force them all together, you take away those choices and that personality.

I love it.

I think my take away is this is how it's supposed to be.  It's how youth's minds work.  If you have a smaller or younger Patrol, you don't force them on the older scouts or take away their leadership and decisions by pressing the youngers in with olders.  You create leadership opportunities for the older scouts to help that younger/smaller patrol - like working on your Troop Guides, the SPL, and instructor positions.  And if needed, you get an adult leader to work with the patrol leaders who are struggling.  But you let them work it out and succeed. 

The worst thing I think you can do to youth is make them do scouts with people they really don't want to.  And make them do it YOUR way.  Or assume there is "one way" every Patrol has to behave.  They will be miserable, they will quit.  But if they love their patrol, they love coming to meetings, outings.  Things like cooking and cleaning aren't a chore it's an activity. 

Someone outlines the "official way" already I think.

I've always seen this go down much more casually.  When I was active on Pack committee we had 4 or 5 times that packs in the area "folded" and merged with us.

The money and gear belongs to the CO they were chartered with.  All but once, that was all just left behind. 

All a "merger" actually ended up being was families doing transfer applications to our unit.  Easy peezy.  No CO messiness.  But that meant leaving everything behind.

Only in one case did we receive any money and property and in that case I think it was more CO-to-CO as they are the real property owners.  It wasn't much.  A pinewood track, an old laptop.  That was CO giving stuff over to CO and then everyone did transfer apps. 

The old units simply didn't recharter.

One time a few years after one of these the pack we got "stuff" from was rechartered by the original CO and contacted us to see if they could pretty please have the pinewood track back and we were like "ABSOLUTLEY" lol.  We never needed two tracks and it was taking up so much room in our limited storage.  But it was a nice track and we were holding it until we heard of someone who needed one.  Worked out!

Anyway, I have seen this be just a mass migration event in which things kind of naturally sort themselves out on the "dissolution" end because the old unit simply does not recharter.  Unless there's a ton of money or property to deal with it should just be unit to unit transfer applications for the scouts really.

It's a neat idea.  If it lights your fire, no reason not to pursue it.

That said, my practical side whispers you'd have little uptake between policies towards electronic use and the fact that in 8 years of leading scouts I have literally never seen one use a radio.  Do it for you, and if a few people get value - huzzah.  But if you're looking for a project to benefit the masses I'd refocus on the Radio merit badge aspect and use this as a means to an end there.

Once official, always official.  I think the old badges are cool and I love a colorful uniform on a youth.  If they like them, they can definitely wear them.

I tend to keep mine less flashy, I'm not trying to show off, but it's their walking trophy case.  I love the zany NYLT loops, colorful OA flaps, bold council patches. 

I love a good ghost patch too.

I dunno.  I think this falls squarely in the "hike your hike" bucket, at least WRT to "official" items.  Shoulder loops custom for NYLT, OA chapters and Wood Badge have become a fad in my area, I'm sure strictly speaking it's out of order, but I see no harm in it and insofar as they promote more activity by youth and leaders in those programs I think they are helpful. 

After discussing with me I allow Star and higher to sign off on First Class and lower.

I also allow Troop Guides after training.

I find that youth-youth for those ranks has benefit.  We have a largeish troop, so it avoid bottlenecks getting progress recorded.  It also provide repeat chances for the older Scout to revisit material and concepts and to show leadership by testing.  I keep an eye on signatures, etc. and if I see a particularly "prolific" scout signoff, I make a point to check in with them more often to maintain my comfort level they are adequately testing.  Have been doing this a while, no problems at all. 

4.2.1.2 The Scout Is Tested
The unit leader authorizes those who may test and pass the Scout on rank requirements. They might include the patrol leader, the senior patrol leader, the unit leader, an assistant unit leader, or another Scout

Pretty clear.  If you, as unit leader, wish to authorize the PLC to test and pass the Scout on that requirement - I can see no reason you can't.  You have a responsibility to ensure those you authorize to do the testing and passing are qualified to do so and that the unit clearly understands who can do what.   If you have full faith in your PLC to be honest and just (youth can be petty) then it sounds like a good experiment at the least.

It's not without hazard, but I think you can say that about anything really

22 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

I would be extremely surprised if any council would be able to ignore the new requirement that a completed background check must come back before anyone has contact with scouts or serves in any capacity.   How will your council exec explain the sudden absence of said volunteer if and when that background check shows that they should not have been accepted due to abuse being uncovered?  

If I am not mistaken this is one of the YPT conditions of the bankruptcy settlement.  (and something that should have been in place all along, just like ending the 72 hour rule that should never have been in place)

It's a good point.  I am guessing the POV of my exec today will change after Mar 4 rolls around.  Will they be square on paperwork by then?  Maybe!  This is a prudent change, but if they can't rise to the challenge of timely processing it's going to hurt the units and the program.

On 1/29/2024 at 2:06 PM, dk516 said:

Except that our Council' track record of processing paper applications is 2-4mts IF they don't lose them altogether. So the only thing this going to bring now is that as a unit leader I will either have to turn away interested volunteers until Council maybe eventually get around to either process registrations or recharter or I am forced to violate policies and keep doing what we did for years but really improved has nothing.

FWIW my exec replied that council policy is as long as the paper app has hit their desk and YPT is confirmed we're good to go.  The lag in council processing the paperwork should not concern us if the paperwork is in as the act of submitting a valid and accepted application is what gets that person covered as a registered leader, insurance, etc.  I do worry about the "what if they lose it".   Two years ago, our entire recharter was lost and it took 9 months to sort it out.

The interim between paperwork and online status is killing us for using otherwise great tools like internet advancement.  I can't enter advancement.  I can't enter activity logs, training, swimming status, etc, etc.   It all hinges on paperwork.  Why not just let me keep entering data and information for a person?

6 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

it wasn't your recharter paperwork that was due on 16 Nov, it was your recharter PAYMENT that was due!! 😜 Never forget... it is all about the money.  The service (even four months later) to youth is just a collateral benefit of having your cash. <sarc off>

Ha.  True that.

Ugh.  If the councils were able to process paperwork quickly, this would all be fine.  Our recharter was due Nov 16, 2023 and district/council practically flogged the volunteers in units to get in on time.  They even sent out an email calling out units who had not submitted on time by name!  

Yet recharter is still in process two months later by council.  In fact, we recently hand-delivered a new adult application to council as we need this adult at a campout this month and they need to be registered to do that.  We were told then they are only about 25% through recharter processing!  It could take another 4 months to complete.  How on earth can it take 2-6 months to process the most fundamental function we ask from our "professionals" and it's okay?  Especially when they hold the volunteers at units to such a standard on getting things in on time?

My entire unit currently shows as "not on official unit roster" in Scoutbook because of the lag in recharter processing.  New Scouts coming into my unit "off the street" or via Cubs crossing over will not even show up on my roster and in Scoutbook for months.  MONTHS. 

So, if they want to put these new (very practical and wise) rules in place - fine.  But... you have to get good at paperwork.  It all hinges on paperwork and processes and I can't put the program on hold for 6 months while we wait on paperwork. 

My take on how to get adults to do things hinges on viewing life through the lens of three virtual bank balances: Time, Money, and Social currencies. You may have to draw down the balance of all three accounts for certain activities.

Everyone has different balances in these accounts. Some may have more Money but less Time, enabling them to financially support others. Those with more Time but less Money invest their time to help without incurring costs. Social currency is spent when actions create hardships for those close to you. Balances in these accounts can only be changed or restored through some form of investment or sacrifice.

To maximize adult participation, minimizing spend from all three accounts is crucial. Activities aligned with existing commitments, avoiding charges, and minimizing additional time investment create a winning combination. Adding to the balance through good planning would be a MAJOR victory, although I'm pressed to give a good example of how.  Maybe having training at a destination non-scouting members of a family would enjoy spending the day/weekend?

The cost from these accounts is personal and highly variable.  You can't assume others can shoulder the same burden from any given account as you can.  And even if they could, we should always be "thrifty" anyway and try to minimize the spend.  For example, an activity falling on Mother's Day could be a major Social Currency withdrawal for some families, valuing togetherness on that day. Meanwhile, others might see it as a day of rest, making an empty house a net deposit in the Social Currency account. Understanding these dynamics helps tailor activities for broader participation.

We had sort of a blow up over this.  Scouts BSA unit.  Scout turned 18 in Nov/Dec.  Friends would not turn 18 until sometime the next year.  Wanted to stay in the unit, but in a way where they could still participate with their buddies.  Cited "Unit College Scouter Reserve" as being for this purpose but on my own review and review with District and Council - no.  The purpose of that role is to forgive the unit of the training requirements for adult leaders for people in that role.  The training status of people in that role are not assessed a penalty for the unit in processes like JTE.  But it does not mean that person can show up to campouts and set up their tent next to their buddies and go Pal around like days of yore.  Sadly, 18 means 18 for Scouts BSA.  There's no ambiguity.  I've suggested Crew as an option because (as we are chartered under the same org) we could then have combined activities where they could come and be with their under 18 buddies as "adult program participants" as long as the YPT rules around that are followed.  I see this a lot in OA for example too.  Did not excite the person in this case, so they moved on.  But those are the options as I understand them.  If you come into Scouts BSA as an adult - you're an adult.  You are bound by the YPT rules any adult is and you would, in my unit, be expected to act like adult leaders and "stay out of the scouts' hair" vs. jump in and do stuff with them, camp with them, KP with them, etc.

"I had walked places all my life.  So how hard could it be?"

Love it.

14 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I learned a lot of new words and ideas 😛😜😜 

Same.  lol

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

shower curtain poncho

I was amazed recently when reading about Emma Gatewood who thru-hiked the AT at 67 years old in 1955 (and then again two more times from what I understand) with a main piece of equipment being a shower curtain as a tarp.  I thought that sounded so unusual but based on this additional source, maybe it was a common "hack" of that time in history.  Nifty.

30 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Whatever system (digital or otherwise), counsel the scouts to reply to comms. If someone does not reply, then the PL (or whomever sent the comm) must then seek that person out.

Good advice.  I have this challenge not only in direct comm "Hey, I sent you an email - did you get it?" but also clearly set expectations.  For example, it had become the practice to sign up for a campout ONLY if you were going.  Our tool for that supports an "RSVP" model where you can explicitly say "I'm not coming."  I started asking everyone to RSVP "no" if they are not coming.  This allowed us to start confirming that people were seeing the calendar entries, and not planning to come.  This has been really helpful in our planning. 

Main thing we did that would be a no-no today was cramming EVERYONE into a single shelter when winter camping.  It was a great way to stay warm, but having done it for many years as a youth I thoroughly understand the logic behind the "within 2 years" rule of YPT.  The information sharing was unfiltered. 

On 1/15/2024 at 3:48 PM, fred8033 said:

Let your scouts decide.  ... Trust your scouts ... and don't think you can control them.  They will communicate how they want.  Plus, their choosing how to communicate is part of their team forming and storming.  It's what we really want out of our scouts:  their solving and owning their activities.  

As unit leaders, the question is how much do we communicate to the parents.  A troop schedule with mtgs, events and activities?  Costs?  Other?  

this is what I was going to suggest.  Make it an agenda item of your next PLC.  Let the Scouts sort it out.  They use methods and means you'll never get into anyway.  And... they don't want you there. 

Be direct and make sure your SPL can reach their ASPLs and PLs somehow.  That's up to them to figure out and may entail a number of methods.  I doubt a one size fits all will work anyway.  I know my own son almost never checks emails.  I know some scouts don't even have a phone, some until they are in their teens.  Others are not permitted on discord.  So I think your youth leaders are going to have to sort out what works person to person.  A lot goes on in the hallway of school too. 

Leave it up to them, but make sure they have a means and use it.

Also be sure your SPL knows how to reach you best and maintain YPT.  My SPL likes to use text messaging with me, but he always copies another leader too or his parents.  Prior SPL preferred email.  I think whatever they prefer is ideal.  You should change with them.