The Latin Scot

I think that stars are simply a nice, utilitarian way of showing service, not a way of showing off. I use them to show my Cub Scouts my own history of experience, but not to display my efforts to others beyond them. So, I have starts for my years in Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Varsity Scouts ... but I didn't count the years between finishing high school and starting as a Den Leader, because I wasn't a registered leader, so why would I pretend to have more experience when I do by counting all those years I did nothing?

Just the other week, I received my 1-year service star for being a leader, and I finally got to put a blue-backed star on my uniform. That makes me just as happy as putting on a 20-year start would have, since it's symbolic to me of my first year being where I should be - registered, involved, and active. That's what matters most, not the number that goes with it.

You are lucky! My experience here in South OC didn't extend past the Ordeal, but they came and did an amazing Arrow of Light ceremony for my boys a month ago (read above), so I have a better view of them since that. :-)

Hey, welcome to the forums - where in Southern California? From South Orange County here; glad to have you aboard!

Really? Oh, I didn't know that ... well, there goes my theory, LOL. I am still learning how all this works!

I didn't even know what a veteran unit was until we started work on the Looking Back Looking Forward adventure in our Webelos Den a few months ago. Come to find out our unit is more than 50 years old (55 next year)! Well, it took a bit of doing fitting it between the council patch and the numerals, what with the position and trained patches already crammed in below - being a smaller guy, the sleeve of my shirt was BARELY long enough to fit that little thing in there - but I fit it in somehow and it has turned out to be a great way to get the boys interested in our unit's history. I say, if your unit has existed since 1945, and if you have kept the same unit number the whole time, you might as well wear it!

Both very fair comments that I needed to hear, and I am thankful to you both for helping me to understand his confusion and opposition. I hope I was clear enough to him about my belief that the uniform is one of the most powerful tools we have in Scouting for promoting our ideals and values. When I discussed it with the class, I didn't mean for it to be regarded as an "alternative" to the uniform - it was BALOO training after all, and the discussion stemmed from a Scouter asking whether or not Cub Scouts had to be in uniform all the time at every single activity. The gentleman's response was that the uniform "wasn't that important anyway," so they needn't worry about it. Being a staunch supporter of full and proper uniforming, but wanting to offer an acceptable BSA solution other than "uniforms don't matter anyway," I brought up the neckerchiefs.

I was careful though to be as polite as possible of course; I do realize that when boys who are Wolf Scouts today are in college, I will be middle-aged myself, and I hope then I will remember this experience when some kid tries to help ME understand a policy change that I have a difficult time accepting myself, lol. Thank you both for your insights and perspective. I always appreciate it.  :-)

First of all: it's nice to see so many fellow teachers here! It's funny how that old idiom about "those that can..." gets perpetuated, but there are sadly many teachers out there who seem to prove it right. I can't tell you how many of my fellow preschool teachers just don't know how to work with children. It was the same when I taught high school; heck, there are university professors who prove it right. But I think this would be how I fix the idiom:

Those who can, should.

Those who teach, do.

Those who can't, will try to anyway.

Now, back to the topic at hand. I went to BALOO training last weekend (at least it should have been a training, but that's a topic for another thread) and it seems I put the old gentleman "teaching" the course into conniptions because I told the class at one point about the BSA's new neckerchief policy, and for one reason or another, he did NOT like it. In fact he openly told the class not to listen to what I was saying because it was "wrong and badly sourced". Meanwhile, I (like any obnoxious young person) pulled out my phone and in a few seconds pulled up this webpage:

http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/08/21/scout-neckerchiefs-now-approved-wear-nonuniform-clothing/

I then pulled up the official BSA Guide to Awards and insignia and showed them the actual statement. Well, the other leaders in the room were convinced and many were actually quite happy to hear it - for low-income areas, it's refreshing to know that you can get a few neckerchiefs and still be identified as Scouts. When my boys and I are on outdoor adventures I make sure they have their neckerchiefs on, and we have a "neckerchief minute" at every meeting where we bring up a different use for the neckerchief each week - it's funny when I have a Scout make up some ludicrous but still viable way to use them!

Anyway, this guy did not like my evidence, nor the very idea of it. It went against "the very principles of the uniform," he said. Well, I had my little victory (thanks technology!), but I was shocked at how hostile he was to the whole thing! I tried to be very gracious about the matter, but still, it was an eye-opener for me about how desperately some Scouters will cling to false traditions even when the proper protocol is right in front of them.

That's great! But sadly I am not in fact Mr. Herrholz; I was actually just quoting his words, but I suppose I didn't make that clear enough in that post. My apologies! I am just a young scouter from Southern California. But John Herrhoz, whomever he is, deserves credit indeed - the story is a wonderful teaching resource and I think he has a good sense of how to make Scouting meaningful and relevant. Hopefully someday I can enjoy the honorable level of credentials you and he share!

I LOVE those big neckers! My father made our troop a big batch of them when I was a Scout but I didn't appreciate them much at the time; now I need to find a plaid that matches the official Webelos neckerchief so that I can enjoy the luxuries of the real deal while still matching my Webelos Scouts in their uniforms. :-)

Well, I have to say, the Order really came through for me the other week. 

I had sent a flurry of e-mails trying to reach to OA to see if they would perform an Arrow of Light and bridging ceremony for the boys in my Den who had all earned the AofL together, and I was worried they wouldn't pull through. But a few days before, they contacted me and said they would come, and from then on were wonderful about communicating to me what they had planned, what they needed, and what they would present.

The night of the ceremony, they were there on time, they were exceptionally well-prepared, and the two Arrowmen who performed the ceremony were FANTASTIC. They had their legends memorized, they were dressed magnificently, they had a really ingenious fake fire that in the dim-lighting really set the mood, and the overall presentation was PERFECT. My boys felt extra-special (we haven't had anything like this in years), the parents were impressed, and they even stayed late to pose for pictures with whomever wanted them. They gave information to the Scouters about future ceremonies, and the whole thing was perfect as I could ever have hoped. Now my boys are anxious to be inducted into the Order when they are old enough, and the fact that I am and Arrowman (the only one in my pack) is suddenly a respected and admired part of my scouting resume.

So ... wow. This has certainly improved their image in my eyes and heart. As soon as my scheduling allows, I think I will start getting more involved in OofA events in my area so that when my boys are old enough to be members, I can be ready to be involved with them!

I think so much of what makes an adventure really just depends on letting the boys go their own way and being excited about what they find. I took my three Webelos on a geocaching adventure for their Camper adventure requirement. All I did was hand them a device and showed them how it worked, and then followed them as we walked through the park in our neighborhood to find it. 

We live in ultra-suburban Orange County, CA, but there is a lot of space here to wander, and most boys don't realize how much wildlife is right here in our own backyards. As we wandered around the park, I pointed out the various birds in the neighborhood by their calls, a few animal tracks and what they meant, and the different kinds of trees that grow in the area. Nothing fancy, but stuff that most people probably pass by. We spent maybe three hours outside looking for the geocache around trees and rocks and the little bridge by the creek, but never found it.

Well, as we walked home, the boys were asking questions about everything - what kind of bird is that calling? What kind of flower is that? Could deer live in this area? How come the possums don't get eaten by dogs? Luckily I knew enough woodcraft to answer all their questions, but what things I didn't know, they were excited to study and learn about at the library the next day (which I was sure to plan as a follow-up activity). They didn't care that we couldn't find the geocache - they were just thrilled to have a better understanding of the world they lived in and to explore their neighborhood with new eyes. It was an adventure for them - they had fun, they learned new things, and their world, even just their neighborhood, was suddenly a little bigger and a little more exciting. All I did was follow them around, point out the cool stuff, and answer their questions as best I could.

As one boy told me, "I lived by this park for years and I never knew there was anything interesting here! Now I wanna (sic) come every day at different times and see what else I can find!"

That to me is what an adventure should be. 

I just feel bad that people look at school like it's a bad thing. I adored school as a child, and most of my boys like it as well. This would have been far more engaging for me than the endless, and pointless camp outs where we went out into the woods and did nothing. My mind felt like it was atrophying on those outings. If I had had the chance to go to something like this when I was a Scout, I would have been thrilled. 

Not all boys crave constant activity and high adventure; I never did. But I did love learning in controlled, comfortable environments. Today's boys are used to being indoors; in their information generation they succeed better at receiving information this way than we think. Should it replace camporees and patrol events? Goodness no; they need to get out and play too. Of course. But one or two of these a year can be a huge benefit to boys that don't always have the opportunity to earn badges that might interest them but that require resources or connections they don't have. 

Every Scout is different. Just as some thrive in the outdoors competing with other patrols and pioneering in the wild, others thrive in a classroom with information and interaction with professionals in various vocations. The key is balance. Scouting's ideals and purpose can remain the same as they always have while still leaving room for adaptation to new needs and goals amongst the young men of this generation. One or two events like these, supplemented by the natural, healthy stream of outdoor adventures and camporee-type experiences, only go towards producing better yields of well-balanced Scouts who can become better men AND advance through the ranks. Advancement can't be allowed to be perceived as bad, nor can school, nor can any of these things. They can all support and promote each other, if we will just let them. 

Well, I am curious to see how our Pack Meeting goes on Thursday. I finally got a hold of our local OA chapter and they are going to come and do the Arrow of Light Ceremony AND the bridging ceremony for my Den's boys, and I am interested in seeing what they come up with. I was frustrated about their communication issues (which have been going on for months now), but now that they have been keeping in touch about the ceremony and explained what I can expect, I am reserving judgement until they get a chance to prove themselves this week. 

To be honest, I was never sure of the OA's purpose or nature as a Scout. I was inducted as a naïve 14-year-old back in 1997, went through the Ordeal - and never heard anything more from my chapter after that. Pretty sad. For years I actually thought the sash was just some special award, and had no idea it was an organization unto itself. This seems to have been an issue ever since then. I am now in the very same chapter and lodge that I was first brought into as a kid, and they haven't improved their communication much since then from what I can tell.

BUT: we will see - if they put on a good ceremony for my boys this week, it will certainly go far towards improving their image in my eyes. I am all about giving things another shot, and I think that when it is well-run and well-organized, the Order of the Arrow can be one of the better parts of the Scouting experience. I just hope that by the time my Webelos are old enough to be a part of it, they will have improved their organization and program.

I found it! The more I read it the more I love it, and I will practice this for a few days so that my Webelos can get the full meaning of these powerful ideas. Especially with one boy crossing over this week and getting his new Boy Scout neckerchief, this is wonderful, timely stuff here. I quote in full:

"My first Scoutmaster taught the importance of the Scout Oath and Law using the Neckerchief. He would hold the open neckerchief in his hands and remind the young scouts of what was the last item of clothing they put on when they were getting dressed for the meeting: the neckerchief. He said that it was no coincidence that the neckerchief had 3 sides, just like the three parts of the Scout oath. He would run a side through his fingers and say "On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God ..." The first and longest side is to remind you of your long standing duty to God. This whole side is hidden from view, just as your faith is deep inside you. But without that faith, there is no strength for the rest.

Holding on to the neckerchief by the point, he would run the next side through his fingers and say "To help other people at all times ..." This shorter side is to remind you of your duty to help others. Remember, it is some of this duty that shows to others, just like a part of this side of your neckerchief shows. So do your duty to others well so that people might see the good works you do in the name of Scouting.

The last side also shows. He would say "To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight." This last side is your duty to your self. This shows to others as well. They will know that by seeing your uniform; you are a young man who is physically fit, has a strong moral foundation, and who is not apt to fall into the temptations of drugs and alcohol.

He would then say that this was a means by which we could remember the Scout Oath, every time we got dressed in uniform. He also gave us a means by which to remember the Scout Law. While wrapping the neckerchief up for wear, he said to wrap it tight in small twists, 12 in fact, and to repeat the 12 points of the Scout Law as you did so. Then as you placed your neckerchief around your neck for wear, the elements of the Scout Oath and Law were with you.

They were in fact part of you.

I hope my rambling remembrances of Mr. Clinton Cooper Troop 6 Nashua, N.H. from 1969 can be used by some. It is a memory that I have used through out my scouting career and have shared with Scouts and Scouters.

John Herrholz, Massabesic District Commissioner

Daniel Webster Council, New Hampshire"

I love this teaching tool. There is so much that can be illustrated with this simple garment. I could add that doing our duty to our Country can be considered as fitting into all of these three; we obey God by honoring this nation He helped establish, we help others by preserving and participating in our great democracy, and we preserve our own honor by defending and upholding the ideals of the Constitution. I might incorporate that into the folds of the neckerchief. I might also add that the two ends that hang from the neck can remind us of Truth and Knowledge, like the two stars on the Scouting emblem. And so much more!

I think if I break it up over a few weeks I should have my inspirational minutes covered till Christmas! Tee hee

Thanks MattR, I suppose I should have noted that yes, at our pack meetings we always have an audience AND a speaker, so it always goes on the left - at our meetings. Thanks for noting that important clause. And thanks to everybody; I knew I would get the help I needed here!

Quazse, you asked where our pack flag was. Funny thing is, I have asked that since I was made the Webelos leader almost a year ago. It seems the closest thing we have is a flag more than 20 years old that has our correct pack number on it, but bears a name for our chartered organization that was actually dropped around that same time when our organizations boundaries changed. So until I can convince the committee to spend the money on a new one, all we have is the U.S. Flag and our den flag. 

I love the idea of all the dens coming up with their flags too ... but again, mine is the only den that has one so far. We only just found somebody to be a Wolves leader and a Bears leader, and there is a lot of catching up for them to do. I doubt den flags are even on their radar yet since they still haven't even bought their uniforms yet. As for the other pack that we do our pack meetings with (our numbers are small so we combine with them for all pack events), they don't have any flags whatsoever, and don't seem to want any either (it was a leader from that pack that asked me not to do it).

SO, I think I will bring my den flag up with the national flag, but have it then sit with the boys in the audience for the duration of the meeting. That way they still have their flag on display but no parents or leaders will feel bothered by it. Since all the boys in my den are receiving the Arrow of Light at this meeting, I want to make sure their den's emblem is made as prominent as I can. 

Hey fellow scouters! I have a question that has been vexing me all night, and I need some help gathering information so I can gain a clearer understanding of BSA guidelines regarding flag ceremonies.

As I have related in other threads, I have worked hard to save my struggling Cub Pack by encouraging them to build Den identity and unity amongst the boys. In my own Den, the boys have worked really hard to create a wonderful Den flag, and they are proud of it, as am I. They rally to it, they care for it, and they really do see it as a symbol of their achievements and successes.

For the past few months, the flag has been displayed at our pack meetings, always with proper respect to our nation's flag being held paramount, and I stress over and over the proper treatment of the American flag during the flag ceremonies. Our flag is displayed to the audience's left as it should be, and it is kept on a pole that is intentionally quite a bit shorter than that of the U.S. ensign. But despite this, I was recently asked not to have our flag displayed, as it would be "disrespectful" to the American flag, and that it should only be used in our private den meetings. 

Next month we are in charge of the flag ceremony, and my Webelos have been working extra hard to master their steps so that the flags cross in front of the audience, American flag passing in front (of course) and then being posted to the audience's left, or the flag's own right, as per official protocol. But now I have another den leader feeling that it is inappropriate for our den flag to be a part of that ceremony. I am willing to change my plans if it means following official protocol, and I am willing to change my views with sufficient evidence, but I thought it was perfectly appropriate to include the den flag as long as we followed the correct procedures during the ceremony itself. I was even told by one leader that since we are a den, and not a patrol, we could not consider the den flag being used.

I don't think a single parent in our audience will notice if it's right or wrong since frankly, having a flag ceremony done correctly in the first place will be a new experience for them. But it's important to me to do it right so that my boys learn correct procedures now before they become Boy Scouts. Can anybody help me find the official BSA stance on den/patrol flags being used in flag ceremonies? Can I include ours with a clear conscience, or should I quickly correct our course before we unwittingly break U.S. code? Thanks.

All I know is that when I tried to renew my membership with the OA, it took me no less than 6 MONTHS of e-mails and phone calls and pushing and shoving just to find somebody to accept my dues. I was trying to give them money, and it took me 6 months?! And now I have been submitting one request after another for an OA Arrow of Light Ceremony to be done at a future pack meeting, which they advertise with bells and whistles on their webpage, to no avail. 

I have great respect for the purpose, history, and traditions of the OA. I have been an Arrowman for almost 20 years. But I am sadly frustrated by the slothfulness of my local chapter; I pray we are an exception still and not yet the general rule.

If a little example like rolling the neckerchief becomes symbolism, then I can see how it could become a little too arcane for comfort, especially for Cub Scouts. But I do think it is wise teaching to make connections between ideas and the more tangible world around them. I like the idea of using the neckerchief as a tool to help them comprehend concepts such as duty and honor. Those can be hard for young boys to conceptualize, but they respond to concrete examples that draw what they see toward what they can then understand.

I did a simplified version of it with my Webelos Scouts when I first started as Den Leader, and a mother recently related to me that I have one boy who, bless his heart, washes and irons his neckerchief all by himself every week so that it will fold neatly and fit nicely around his neck every week. He asked me to go over the folding a few times with him just so he could watch how I do it, and his mom tells me he now folds it carefully before putting it on every week, and then folds it nicely when he puts it away after the meeting. I did the same thing when I was a Scout his age. It's a small behavior, but it shows me that he really thinks about what it all means, and what Scouting is meant to do for him. All of my boys in fact fold them neatly now, and they really take pride in how nice they look and how many people compliment them. They look unified, but what's more, they feel unified. It's absolutely heartwarming to see the Scouting program guiding these boys to grow into good, kind, and strong men.

OCTOBER - all of my Webelos Scouts are earning their Arrow of Light at our monthly Pack Meeting! Plus to earn the Maestro Adventure pin, they are putting on a Den Talent Show for their parents and families

NOVEMBER - the SPACE DERBY! I am in charge of running it too, so expect me to be asking for advice about it in a new thread sometime soon. Also Scouting for Food

DECEMBER - our annual Pack Caroling Activity to elderly and sick friends of our pack in our community :-)

Yeah I wish they were bigger now too. My father could easily sew a big one for me but as a Webelos Leader I feel the boys like seeing me wear the same plaid they are wearing. But if I ever move on the the older programs ...

Ah that's way cool; my Sindarin is better than my Quenya, lol.

I am halfway towards my goal of saving up enough for a campaign hat ... I think they are so cool! And fortunately my local Scout Shop has a big enough stock of them for me to find the right size without having to guess. :-)

Has anybody heard of this? Some time ago I read somewhere of a wonderful way to teach the Scout Law using the neckerchief. More or less, it connected the long edge of the necker to our duty to God since it is the longest side just as it is our lifelong duty; the other sides represent our duty to others and ourselves; the folds as you prepare it for wear represented the many layers of our responsibilities, and then we wrap it around our shoulders just like the responsibilities we wear throughout our lives as scouts ...

... or something like that? 

If anybody has a more complete version of this that they are willing to share, please post it here. I want to use it in full for an upcoming Pack Meeting that will have a few new boys and leaders, and I remember it being much better explained than I can now remember. I would appreciate some help. Thanks guys! 

I was reading through old thread (so I apologive for diggin this up), but official BSA policy states that 3 is the maximum number. I wear Spanish and French, though I admit I wish I could add an Elvish patch, lol.

Thanks for the report. Were the ceremonies you attended at the same troop or different units?

 

The National Eagle Scout Association promotes these in some of their sample scripts for ECoHs. There's a book (maybe two?) specifically on ECoH ceremonies. So clearly your people have either never seen them. Or, they saw them and said "Meh, who needs it?"

Two were in the same troop, the others in different units. The ones I attended were basically glorified Courts of Honor featuring only one or two Scouts. The basic format was almost always:

- Opening ceremonies (Flag Ceremony, Invocation, Scout Oath and Law)

- Invitation to the "Eagle's Nest" (where they invite anybody in the audience who has earned the rank of Eagle to sit in some chairs that have been put in a front corner of the hall (does anybody else do this?))

- A brief and often diluted review of the Eagle Requirements

- "An "introduction" of the Eagle Scout (he's not a candidate anymore, is he? once he has passed his Eagle Board of review, from that moment he is an Eagle Scout - isn't that right?) that basically goes "Filiberto, come up here. Filiberto is a great kid; I've known him a long time and ... we're real proud of him." And that's about it.

- A long and drawn out powerpoint slide show with loud and cheesy music telling his entire life story which takes around 15 - 20 minutes

- A "guest speaker" (usually just somebody from the chartered Organization assigned to offer some words)

- Another sappy powerpoint with various pictures of eagles and flags and random 'inspiring images' of ... well, of anything really, from Boy Scouts to firemen to teachers to puppies ... I am never sure what their purpose is

- The presentation of the award (as in, they call up the Scout and his parents to more or less say "congratulations Billy!" He then gives his parents their pins, pictures are taken, and that's basically it)

- A closing Scoutmaster's Minute (if that)

- The colors are retrieved, there is a benediction, and then lots of refreshments

I will be honest, they can be pretty dry affairs. I know mine was not very fancy either, although I must also add that as a kid I was never eager for undue attention, so I preferred something more understated, although it was certainly more dignified that these long multi-media powerpoint selfie-festivals we get nowadays. I don't know; I feel they shouldn't be overdone either, but at the same time they should feel ... special. It's a hard balance to find I imagine. I agree that simplicity has more gravitas and dignity than the birthday party/wedding reception type events I have sometimes encountered, but we still want them to feel like they have earned something to remember. I would love to attend one that is really well-done someday. I know I make sure my Webelos Scouts get a really nice Arrow of Light Ceremony; I wish I could give the Eagle Scouts something similar, but for now they are not under my stewardship.