The Latin Scot

Well thank goodness the decision isn't in any of our hands then.

Co-ed does cut out the very heart of the program though, which is to help BOYS become better MEN. Do we have to put girls into this kind of a program?

Yeah, that would simply be ridiculous. And can you imagine the backlash from ethnicities that weren't represented by a device, or those that refused to be labelled under the device of the "wrong" ethnicity? And what would they use for the devices? Would I get a llama for helping the Scout program among my Andean paisanos? Little bagpipes for promoting Scouts to my Scottish relations in the local Scottish neighborhood? I think the BSA would be out of their minds of they attempted anything like that. I think they will just group any community efforts for any ethnic community under the one knot, and not worry about trying to identify just which minority group the Scouter was trying to help. 

I like that movie too, enough to know that that line is spoken by the villain, who is a psychotic murderer who "gets his" at the end.  Is that really who you want to be quoting?  (Or actually misquoting, it's "super", not "special".)

First of all, his name is Syndrome. And secondly, yes, he is exactly whom I want to be quoting, actually, because he reveals that this modern idea, that everybody should get the same thing, that "girls should be boy scouts too," that nobody should be allowed to exclude - it's fundamentally a BAD IDEA. It's the VILLAIN who wants everybody to get the same privileges whether they earn them or not, the VILLAIN who wants to level the playing field to the point that there's no point in playing, the VILLAIN who wants to ensure that nobody gets a chance to excel, because that would be "unfair" or "elitist" or "unequal." The very idea that merit has not place in society is fundamentally problematic, if not blatantly wrong. 

So yeah - Syndrome is exactly the one I want to quote, because his idea is, at its core, a rotten one. That is just my point, and I am glad you asked me to clarify, although it would seem you were hoping I would back up on what I said. In the which case I must disappoint you. 

Edit: I also noticed they misspelled the name of Whitney M. Young, Jr as 'Witney,' which I sadly copied and pasted before realizing the error. It seems they were in quite the hurry to get this thing up, lol. 

Ugh, this is just getting ridiculous. Why can't the world today just let an organization made for boys BE FOR BOYS? I hope the BSA National Board ignores this "push" entirely. Just because lots of people want it doesn't make it right.

Also: The NESA is by very definition THE NATIONAL EAGLE SCOUT ASSOCIATION. Why should an organization designed for Eagle Scouts have anything to do with other awards? Let them come up with their own societies. To suggest that an association of Eagle Scouts include people who ... aren't, doesn't make any sense. It's trying to be inclusive at the cost of preserving the special nature of the Eagle Scout award in the first place. As one of my favorite movies points out, "when everybody is special, nobody is."

It reminds me of something about which I constantly have to remind my students and Cub Scouts - despite what modern opinions try to teach people, FAIR does not mean everybody gets the same thing. FAIR means everybody gets what they earn. 

So I was browsing various merchandise on scoutstuff.org and encountered this interesting item:

http://www.scoutstuff.org/knot-scouting-service-award.html

So, according to the item summary, this award "Replaces the Asian American Spirit of Scouting Service Award, Vale la Pena Service Award, and the Witney M. Young, Jr. Award." Yet try as I might, I can find absolutely no mention of this "new" award anywhere on the official BSA website, nor on the websites of any affiliates, nor even on any third-party webpages that are usually all over any mention of a new knot to earn. So what gives? Have they just let the cat out of the bag on their website prematurely, or has this change been announced while I have been oblivious? I find it interesting that it seems to indicate that the BSA is not going to maintain its award system for growing Scouting in specific cultural communities; I think it's a good thing really if it means a more broad-minded approach to building Scouting in different cultural contexts, but I hope there is more information available soon as I am curious about how they will define this new award.

Has anybody else heard about these changes?

Edit: Ha! I just noticed that the knot is upside-down in the picture they have. I guess it's still new enough that nobody has even noticed it yet, lol.

Thanks @@TAHAWK, that was one of the first places I looked, but it doesn't give any information about the wearing of older or commemorative CSP's. And to @@scoutldr's point, it is indeed the CSP for the council I am registered in, and it is in fact the only one I have been with since I was a Scout myself. So, while I was in college at the time this particular patch was issued, it was still my "home base" as it were. As such, I feel that it will not be inappropriate to wear it. Thanks to all your comments everybody! 

Ha ha, wow! I am trying to wrap my mind around what a haggis burrito would be like ... not very tasty I imagine. Not tasty at all. 

Great; I knew you guys would have the answers. Thank you so much! I will put the patch on tonight. 

Pasta ... ? Oh, wait. I guess I must also apologize for the ambiguity of my screenname ... Latin refers to Hispanic South American, not Italian. You can have your pasta back though.

Hey everybody! I have a question about council patches. I have scoured the policies and guidelines about uniforms to no avail trying to find an answer, but I am sure somebody here will be able to supply a useful response.

I recently received as a gift a council patch celebrating the BSA Centennial here in Orange County CA; for all intents and purposes, it is exactly the same as our council's current patch, only it is done with gold trim and has a special centennial emblem in the center. It's very attractive and I would like to wear it on my uniform, but as the centennial was now some years ago, I am not sure if that would be permitted. 

Is the wearing of a celebration patch for the centennial allowed after the year of its issue, or should I just stick with the current one to avoid improper uniforming? I am a firm believer in wearing the uniform correctly, so I won't mind if it's not allowed. However, it's a handsome patch that I should very much like to use if there is any provision made for such wearing. Thanks for any suggestions and information!

I also apologize for utterly de-railing this thread. As you were, Scouts! 

I am sorry you have interpreted things that way! But this is not a matter of control for myself. The units should be run by the boys, not adults, and I only want to empower the boys to run their own program, not be controlled by adults who want things done "their way" and not the way the BSA intends - BOY-led units.  

I also apologize if my hyperbole has led you to believe that I actually work with terms like 'clandestine' or 'mechanations.' If my sarcasm and play with words is too thick, then I am sorry; no such things actually take place, and I am almost surprised one could imagine they would. But that is the fault of my writing style, not my actions. Nothing happens in the shadows, and the 'unseen power' is not intended to be me - heaven forbid. However, that power is not in the hands of the adult leadership either. It is in the hands of the boys. My only effort is to ensure that it remains there. I am fully aware of how the BSA is meant to operate. I am also aware that my CO representative has expressed nothing but gratitude for the changes that have been slowly occurring over the past few months, knowing full well that I have played a part in them, and he fully approves. On my honor, I can assure you that I would rather leave the program than work against the wishes of our CO representative. Disobedience and under-handed play are anathema to my character.

So, I am sorry if I made it sound like a bad thing. But it hasn't been anything but good, and I will continue to proceed as best benefits the promulgation of a boy-led Troop. That is what the BSA is supposed to be. 

You said it.  You are a meddling cub scout leader and a trouble maker.  I couldn't have said it better myself.

You make it sound like it's a bad thing. 

It would seem however that my sarcasm and facetious comments have been misinterpreted; in the interest of making clear my intentions and methods, I should explain. I am in truth invited to committee meetings by the Committee Chair herself since I am regarded as the only individual in the congregation who has a broad grasp of BSA policies and procedures, and the Scoutmaster and I are friends. I am also very close to all the boys in the Troop, and I have a vested interest in the success of their program. So while I am indeed a 'meddler," I am in fact one who is invited to meddle, and who is welcome to do so by the committee. 

Of course, I know the committee well, and so I know that getting them to do anything to improve the program so that it falls in line with how the BSA wants it to be takes .... time. They are notoriously slow to make changes to their long traditions, and after 53 years, our units are used to the way they do things. SO my "clandestine mechanations" are merely my strategy to effect beneficial changes by working the other way round - rather than try to push from the top (the committee) down, I push from the bottom (the boys) up: all with the full knowledge of the troop committee.

So, be assured that I am working entirely within the prescribed system, with the knowledge and invitation of the Troop Committee itself. Now, you might still find my actions to be troublesome, and that is your prerogative. But frankly I couldn't care two figs what people think when it comes to the boys in this Troop - they deserve the very best program delivered according the the way the BSA wants it done, and so even if I did have to resort to unusual tactics, I wouldn't feel bad about it at all. My concern for the Scouts far outweighs whatever stipulations the adult community may have about it.

@@qwazse I am two steps ahead of you. I registered a few months ago as the counselor for Scouting Heritage and seven other badges. It's given me all the leverage I need to legitimize my presence there, lol.

My pleasure! I hope this is helpful.

I have suggested that! But our Chartered Organization requires the new scout patrol to have its own ASM, and the man serving right now doesn't "feel the need for a troop guide" (or for running a proper Scouting program, but I digress). In any case I am technically just a meddling Cub Scout leader who goes to Troop Committee Meetings anyway because I love the boys in our congregation and I want them to have a better Scouting experience than the sorry program I had when I was a kid in this troop. But I am sure over time things will start improving; for now my efforts are focused on firing up the boys' interest in the full breadth and history of Scouting. Little by little they are starting to demand a more traditional Scouting experience form their leaders, who will hopefully start giving way to the boys demands and start making concessions to Boy-generated ideas.

My clandestine mechanations are slowly but surely starting to take hold!. I am such a trouble-maker sometimes, lol.

I think that's part of why the program waits until the boys are Webelos Scouts before introducing the concept of choosing a Den name and emblem. Boys younger than 10 have a hard time coming to a consensus on something like representative nomenclature, and their fickle personalities mean that they get bored with what they choose quickly. Finding a good totem for their group is really hard, especially finding one that they will all like. But that's why they already have totems and names selected for them by the Cub Scout program itself - they are the Tigers, then the Wolves, then the Bears. They can personalize those if they wish (the white tigers, the grizzly bears, the timber wolves, etc.), but I think at those ages it's easier to use the totems given and keep things consistent with their ranks and books. 

Once they are Webelos however, they no longer have a "given" totem, so that's when they can come up with their own. The "Flying Eagle Webelos Den" works because Webelos is not a totem in and of itself. But the "Flying Eagle Wolf Den" seems strange because they are already the Wolves, so why add another emblem? For this reason, I think that compelling a group to use the same flag could become problematic, not to mention arbitrary and unnecessary. Their name and totem will change with each rank through each year, so I don't think it is a very thoughtful move by a committee to make such a request. Not that they have the authority to do so anyway. 

If I could just get the ASM over the New Scout Patrol to stop drilling the boys on knots and start actually running a boy-led Scouting program that helps them advance and accomplish something!

This thread needs a genie to go with it. 

I concur, apple pie and vanilla ice cream, peach cobbler, even ice cream cones - those sound quintessentially American, while the dessert your Scout created ... well, let's just say my paternal line has been here since the Mayflower and yet I have never heard of anything like it. But it sure sounds ... sweet! Haha, kudos to him for being imaginative though. 

Welcome Tron! I am impressed with how articulate and well-written your post is; it speaks highly of your ability to play a key role in improving you unit and program. 

I am so glad to hear from a Scout about his desire to participate more in the program at the Committee level. I think your attendance would be a huge benefit to the boys in your Troop, as there are many committees who get so caught up in the bureaucracy of Scouting that they lose focus of the actual Scouts of which it is composed. As you are clearly an experienced leader with the best interests of the Scouts at heart, as well as an intelligent individual who can articulate his thoughts well, you should be a welcome and important member of the Committee and its discussions. 

I had a recent experience in regards to this very issue. I am the Webelos Den Leader, but I am close to many of the boys in the Troop, and since we meet at the same time and place I have frequent occasion to check in on their progress, and I often help the Scouts navigate the oft-perilous waters of Adult Meddling in their activities. Well, I recently had a conversation with the Senior Patrol Leader who came to me with concerns about some things that weren't happening in the Troop, and he wanted to know what to do. His list of concerns included the following:

1. Our Troop has had no involvement with the Order of the Arrow for years (I was the last boy to be inducted over a decade ago), and there were a number of boys who wanted to nominate their friends to be a part of it

2. The older Patrol wants to get new neckerchiefs in their patrol colors, instead of using the same ones they were given at their bridging ceremony years ago

3. After I told them about what it was (they had never heard of it), the boys want to go to Camporee (again, it's been years since our Troop has gone), but they don't know how to convince their Scoutmaster to take them

I thought about it, and asked him simply "Have you presented your ideas to the committee?" He looked at me with wide-eyes and asked "Am I allowed to?" I told him essentially "Hey, you are the Senior Patrol Leader, and you represent the interests of all the boys in the running of THEIR program. If you get the input of your boys and the Patrol Leader's Council, you can present the information to the committee and inform them (not ask, INFORM) that you have elected to attend Camporee, nominate some boys for the OA, and obtain new neckerchiefs in your chosen colors. Then, ask the committee how they are going to help the Troop accomplish these goals."

So, next week he is going to have all of his information ready to present the desires of the troop to the Committee so that they can know exactly what issues the boys want addressed (I will attend to support him and his propositions as well). And that, Tron, is how it should be. The Committee exists to facilitate the needs of the Troop, but if the entire spectrum of the Troop's wishes is not fully represented by the adult leadership, the Senior Patrol Leader or his chosen representative is perfectly within his rights to attend the meeting and voice the desires of the boys themselves. I have recently read every edition of the Boy Scout Handbook and Scoutmaster's Handbook published since 1912, and there is nothing to say you cannot attend the meetings, but there are a number of occasions where it mentions issues or concerns being brought up by the boys themselves at Committee meetings. So according to BSA precedent, you have a green light to attend and participate in a Troop Committee Meeting. Just make sure you have your ideas and concerns well-prepared, and that you attend with either the position or the approval of the Senior Patrol Leader, who technically should be one of the senior officers of a Troop Committee anyway. And as mentioned, be polite, hold your ground, and stand for the boys of your unit. I think any committee would be lucky to have such an involved and pro-active young man such as you be a part of their proceedings and planning.

I hope you find this helpful.

Okay so here is the book's information:

The Boy Scout Council Shoulder Patch Guide : A Tour of Councils Through Their Patches

by Steven and Elisa Delman

It seems there have been several editions printed since the original; I think the cover I have posted is the latest one. Looking through it again, I note that it actually isn't as thorough as I remember (last time I read it was a year ago). It can be a bit fickle in which patches it includes; I do know that if you get the past editions you will get a more comprehensive view of the patches that were made. Evidently with each new edition they add lots of new patches, but at the expense of including older ones. Thus you may want to get all the editions printed; they are only $2 - $4 on Amazon. I hope this helps!

Will do! I have my weekly stack of books to return by Thursday anyway so I will get it up here as soon as I can.

LOL thanks everybody; I never quite understood the "thumbs up/down" feature anyway, but it's nice to know that so far I haven't accrued any negative comments. Here's hoping things stay that way, tee hee!

I have so far read the first 6 editions of the Scout Handbook, as well as the first 4 editions of the Scoutmaster's Handbook, since it seems he also included a complete collection of those as well. So much to read! So much to learn!