The Latin Scot

BORING. So bland, so simplistic yet without elegance or sophistication. I couldn't imagine a less interesting graphic.

1 hour ago, JoeBob said:

Cut out the liner.  Position the flash vertically over your left eye.  Pull everything else down flat to your buzz cut so that there is a bit of overlap covering your right ear.

At least that's how Rangers wore the black beret, back when it still meant something.   (Shinseki can apply oral vacuum to my gluteus maximus.)

Great, thank you! Um ... what exactly is the "flash?" Sorry I have never worn a beret before, lol. 

Any chance you could share the technique? 

I have! Sending you a PM now!

25 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

BP was a visionary and a leader.  He'd have been disappointed to see those who want to exclude girls from Scouting trying to do so in his name.

It's cute that you pretend to know him so well, but unfortunately for your position I have read too much of his words to believe this. And you make it sound like all visionaries and leaders would have supported this, when of course there are many visionaries and leaders who oppose it. Being either one of them, and supporting girls in Scouting, are of course entirely unrelated. You can try again though if you like. 

19 minutes ago, gblotter said:

We will go out with a bang - not a whimper.

Amen to that!

Be that as it may, I will ensure that the boys in my Webelos den get every ounce of benefit I can squeeze out of Scouting until the minute we switch to the new program - including preparing them to cross over into the Boy Scout program. Even if they don't ever go into Boy Scouts after this, I feel it would be cheating them out of essential and valuable lessons if I watered down my program just because we won't be continuing with Scouting in the future. So in my den, Scouting will live on at least for another year and a half - and for boys this age, that can still be a mightly long time to make a mighty big difference. 

11 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Living today, I expect BP would have realized the same thing.

In that case, the man you claim to know is nothing like the man I have come to know and love. I have read everything there is on Lord Baden-Powell, and if he was anything, it was a man of principle and integrity. You can throw his name around in an attempt to add weight to your argument if you like, but don't expect those of us who have read his literature and studied his ideas to agree with your assumptions about what he would or wouldn't do or believe if he were still alive today. If anything, I assume he is grateful not to be around today as the organization he was inspired to create buckles under the whims of public opinion. It's certainly not something he would have done.

I was a 13 year-old Eagle! Of course, that was all the way back in 1998, so it may not be viewed as relevant today, but I admit I mildly resent all the remarks about a 16 year old Eagle being "worth more" or "better prepared" than we who were a few years younger when we completed the requirements. And mind you, of all the boys who earned their Eagles in my Troop the same year as I, ALL of the rest were 16 or 17, yet I am the only one who went on to attend a good University, the only one with a clear career direction, and the only one still actively involved in Scouting. So be careful when you put down the little Eaglets! We may look small in the moment, but we take the things we've learned and treasure them deeply the rest of our lives. You can never judge an Eagle's worth by age alone!

Funny side note: I was still in high school when this thread was started! Good grief this website is older than I realized, lol. 😄

8 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Or perhaps the leadership of the organization looked around and said - "Why are we limiting this to boys?  Girls can benefit just as much as boys do."  The BSA already have co-ed Crews & Ships.  A number of packs were getting siblings involved as well.  So they said - instead of fighting the trend, let's embrace it.

The more I see the number of people who do support this, the more I realize that the senior leadership may have indeed been leading.

My problem with this line of thought is that it presumes that girls think like boys, learn like boys, and respond to the same things boys do - and the simple fact is that they do not, because they are not the same. Sure, the benefits of Scouting are just as desireable for the one as they are for the other, but the paths by which they get there won't necessarily work as well for girls as they do for boys. Some may think differently, which is their right, but I know girls and boys are inherently different - thank Heaven for that.

And frankly, I have never trusted public "trends." Too often, the sway of public opinion leads only to disappointment and regret. So I am more than happy to stand against trends that I feel are erroneous if it means I am still standing by my principles in the end.

10 minutes ago, David CO said:

Nice use of apropos. I know that is it French. Is it derived from Latin? That would be very apropos coming from The Latin Scot. 

•  It is indeed from the French, I want to say mid-17th century but perhaps earlier. The roots are certainly Latin though, as are those of most French words. And I confess I do use it casually; technically, it should always be followed by of, but I tend to be generous in how I use prepositions with foreign terms. Sadly my French isn't as fluent as my Spanish these days, but I still try to color my dialogue with as much of it as I can without sounding too pretentious. 

UGH! Those options are terrible! How are incoming ladies expected to correctly place their insignia when there are no standard pockets by which to judge placement? Are they going to re-write the guide to uniforms and insignia entirely? And on WHAT body are those hideous shirts supposed to be flattering? 

The BSA has a serious problem with sizing already, as all of you have already noted. I had to get my shirt custom tailored because my long wiry arms looked preposterous in the huge flapping sleeves of a YOUTH LARGE, which, mind you, was the only shirt with a torso size which fit decently on my trim shoulders. Luckily the re-fitting was a success and it looks okay on me now, but pants/shorts/whatever - those are all WAY too baggy on me, even with a waist size that fits. It's discrimination against slender folk like me I tell you! I am built like one of Tolkien's elves and there is no garment sold in the Scout Shops which appropriately accomodates my slim physique. It's a conspiracy I tell you! 

Well, looks like I won't have to worry about the new neckers after all! Which is fine by me since I love the classic blue and gold, and will be happy to simply pass on the old yellow ones, even if the red does make a little more sense what with the matching color schemes and all. 

I think J. R. R. Tolkien expressed my feelings best in regards to the coming changes, and my place during and after them:

 “It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule.”

I find these words touchingly a propos for me now.

14 hours ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Well the girls could use two of the small neckers to make an emergency halter top!

No, just ..... no.

You just made me a whole lot more comfortable with my Church pulling out of Scouting.  

And what is it with you guys and your huge necks? When I wear the standard issue neckers the ends are so long they plummet past my belly button! How big are you people?! I thought being 5'8 and 160 lbs. was average but I can't imaging how a necker as huge as the old ones would look on me! Although I do see how they would be far more useful. I could use one that big as a blanket, a tablecloth, a parachute ...

I do want to share our church's official position of the family, gender roles and other beliefs that will help those here understand better why we cannot continue to support the new BSA program changes. Hopefully it will make it clear why we want boys and girls, young men and young women to have their own programs which will support and nurture their own identities; whether or not you believe as we do, I think it is well to make sure that the separation is amicable, and that the friendships we have established continue to the benefit of our communities and their youth. Understanding where we stand, just as understanding where the BSA now stands, is important. This proclamation of our doctrines on family and the nature of gender should help those who are confused by the Church's new direction:

https://www.lds.org/topics/family-proclamation?lang=eng&old=true

I will try to monitor this thread as frequently as possible for the next few days in case anybody has questions that perhaps I can either answer or at least direct to where answers can be found. And again, I intend to be the most active, loving and engaged Den Leader I possibly can be until precisely 11:59 pm, December 31st, 2019! 

Well, it looks like our time together is drawing to its close ...

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/new-program-children-youth?cid=HP_TU-8-5-2018_dPAD_fMNWS_xLIDyL1-B_

Quote

The children and youth of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints worldwide are precious. They represent the future, and ministering to their needs is a significant focus for the Church.

For years, Church leaders have been preparing a new initiative to teach and provide leadership and development opportunities to all children and youth, to support families and to strengthen youth everywhere as they develop faith in the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. This new approach is intended to help all girls and boys, young women and young men discover their eternal identity, build character and resilience, develop life skills and fulfill their divine roles as daughters and sons of God. The initiative is designed to allow local leaders, families and even the young people themselves to customize their efforts, while providing service opportunities and activities, fostering healthy relationships and supporting communities. Details will be shared at childrenandyouth.lds.org as the implementation date approaches.

As announced publicly today in a joint statement with the Boy Scouts of America, effective on December 31, 2019, the Church will conclude its relationship as a chartered organization with all Scouting programs around the world. Until then, the intention of the Church is to remain a fully engaged partner in Scouting for boys and young men ages 8–13. All youth, families and leaders are encouraged to continue their active participation and financial support of Scouting until that date. See a list of frequently asked questions.

The Church honors Scouting organizations for their continued goal to develop character and instill values in youth. The lives of hundreds of thousands of young men, along with their families and communities, have been blessed by Scouting organizations worldwide.

And the joint statement from the Church and BSA: https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/multimedia/file/bsa-joint-statement-may-8.pdf

Quote

A Joint Statement from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and The Boy Scouts of America

May 8, 2018

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Boy Scouts of America have been partners for more than 100 years. The Scouting program has benefited hundreds of thousands of Latter-day Saint boys and young men, and BSA has also been greatly benefited in the process. We jointly express our gratitude to the thousands of Scout leaders and volunteers who have selflessly served over the years in Church-sponsored Scouting units, including local BSA districts and councils. In this century of shared experience, the Church has grown from a U.S.-centered institution to a worldwide organization, with a majority of its membership living outside the United States. That trend is accelerating. The Church has increasingly felt the need to create and implement a uniform youth leadership and development program that serves its members globally. In so doing, it will be necessary for the Church to discontinue its role as a chartered partner with BSA. We have jointly determined that, effective on December 31, 2019, the Church will conclude its relationship as a chartered organization with all Scouting programs around the world. Until that date, to allow for an orderly transition, the intention of the Church is to remain a fully engaged partner in Scouting for boys and young men ages 8–13 and encourages all youth, families, and leaders to continue their active participation and financial support. While the Church will no longer be a chartered partner of BSA or sponsor Scouting units after December 31, 2019, it continues to support the goals and values reflected in the Scout Oath and Scout Law and expresses its profound desire for Scouting’s continuing and growing success in the years ahead.

Ugh, this is all getting absurd. They wouldn't dare force co-ed Troops here though. Nor would they insist that CO's which charter all-boy units also charter girl units as well. That would instantly alienate the entire LDS Church, which forms a HUGE part of the BSA population. My hope is that the Church can exercise enough clout to protect smaller conservative bodies who still want to run only the traditional all-male BSA model, but don't have a voice large enough to be heard. If other units want to bring in girls, FINE, but that is where the Church's line is going to be drawn, and I can't imagine National would dare challenge a demographic as large as the Church's by forcing girls on its volunteers who don't want to follow the new model. 

I imagine that is precisely how it will go. Which is why I am glad I will have no part in it; thank goodness CO's are allowed to choose how they will proceed so that those who don't want to get involved in this mess can at least continue on their merry way largely unaffected. I will never have to deal with girls in our program. But again and certainly, my heart goes out to those who feel similarly, but don't have the guaranteed protection of their CO's preserving their interests as I know mine will. Such a mess ...

Our chapter has a huge, authentic war drum donated by a local tribe; the thing is a BEAST and can be heard from over a mile and a half away on a clear night. When the OA does tap-outs at Camporee, the drum is placed at the top of a hill and when the time is right, it begins a slow, steady beat which is heard through the entire camp, down into the very earth itself. Every campsite goes quiet as the OA begins its procession through the Troop campgrounds, tapping out new members, its ranks growing larger and larger with the new Scouts and those who are already members now in their sashes, slowly joining the throng and moving through the grounds until all the Troops have been visited and all the new candidates have been called out, the drum still pounding out its slow, steady rhythm. The boys then hike a distance away from the Camporee grounds into the wilderness a short ways, where they create a large circle and there receive their welcome packets and a greeting from their new OA leadership team. Only after they leave sight of the general grounds however does the beating of the drum stop. It's pretty impressive, I must confess. That instrument has a voice like you wouldn't believe.

10 minutes ago, Saltface said:

A separate girl program run by BSA, allowed to cater to the needs and wants of girls (and possibly meander in a different direction than boy scouts)? Hear, hear?

That's exactly what I THOUGHT we were going to offer, which I would have actually supported much more willingly! But as Viceroy Gunray remarked at the Battle of Theed, "this is too close." To waltz in, change the name of the 108 year-old Boy Scout program, and just drop in the ladyfolk, instead of the "new, separate girl's program" that was initially promised, is frankly an affront to all of the volunteers that have been holding out for a sensible initiative that would have protected their interests while still making room for expansion. They have reached the point where they are openly ignoring what the volunteers they have want, just to curry favor with a demographic of volunteers they clearly prefer but don't yet have. I am appalled by this change, but it is going to come back to bite them. Which is an awful shame, because the program itself has proven time and again that it WORKS - if you let it. They just can't seem to stop meddling with Baden-Powell's vision, and eventually, those who can no longer recognize the vision in the program will abandon it. 

3 minutes ago, ham_solo said:

Should have copied the "UK Scouts" that they switched to when they went co-ed, and just changed to "US Scouts".

Actually that would have been worse in my eyes; at least by using the term Scout BSA, the word "boy" is still there, even if in abbreviated form. But it's a bend to public opinion that may well break the spine of our principles the further we extend it.

47 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

No dissent it allowed (guess you missed that memo). Either embrace the changes or run the risk of being un-Scoutesque (like the variety of Scouts formerly known as Boys) and chastised for not living up to the Oath and Law.  You may be chided for being inane and foolish also, so at least that can be a goal.

Well, luckily I have been working with kids long enough to be able to take an inordinate amount of chiding and chastisement without any ill effects, lol.

51 minutes ago, Chadamus said:

What do you suggest?

Simple - give the girl program an entirely separate name, and don't touch the boys program. Or better yet! - forget including the ladies at all, as per the past 108 years of Boy Scouting. I certainly will not allow thrashing public opinion to compell me to bend to their agenda; girls and boys are different, and I will not be cowed into offering up my assent. I think the entire thing is a bad move, from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts, and I will continue to refer to the program as Boy Scouts, since fortunately my CO will not be accepting girls into its programming. But I pity the CO's, councils, districts and units that are going to feel so inordinately pressured to do so. 

"Scout Me In" .... UGH. Resorting to PUNS now, are we? Could this slogan be any more unimaginative? 

I frankly despise this name change. I had anticipated the girl's program getting their own name and materials, not that we would be forced to change our name and then share a bnunch of watered down materials. This is disheartening in the extreme.