The Latin Scot

Actually National supply has quit making them. They are now only selling what is left in their inventory.

Where did you hear this? Source? I have been in communication with people from my local scout shop, scoutstuff.org, national supply, even scoutingmagazine.org; and so far nobody has heard anything about this. I would be extremely surprised to learn that the BSA isn't producing neckerchiefs as part of their uniform wear anymore. Are they not making socks, or hats, or Scout shirts either? This sounds mighty suspect if you ask me.

But -- and I infer this from our handle -- are Scottish, so change is not in your nature.  And, of course, if it's not Scottish, it's c**p! [We were all thinking it...I just said it]

 

I say this as a proud member of the Lamont Clan!

Ah, well then in that case @@Col. Flagg, Ceud mìle fàilte agus slàinte mhath from Clan Ross!

And @@Cambridgeskip, that makes me happy to hear that the youth on Scouting's home turf are so fond of their neckerchiefs! I love seeing the different color neckers from Troop to Troop at large Scouting events. It really does promote patrol unity and team spirit when the neckerchief is given meaning in the patrol's mind! For example, one of our patrols is the "Knights of Light" patrol. Their patch is a smart-looking silver knight's helmet, their flag is in the shape of a large shield in black and white with the silver helmet emblazoned in the center, and they now wear their new black neckerchiefs with silver trim. The necker' reinforces their patrol colors (black and silver), and distinguishes them from other patrols at Scout Camp, Camporee, etc. And now that they have them (we only recently purchased them for the whole patrol), they wear them EVERYWHERE. And if I may say so, the black looks particularly smart against the olives and greens of the Centennial uniform.   

When you give the uniform meaning in a Scout's mind, he comes to value it far more than than any sense of embarrassment could ever override. 

I am 100% in favor of neckerchiefs, and 100% opposed to co-ed Scouting. In my chartered organization we don't even have girls in our Venturing program, which I am glad of.

I am also barely into my thirties, which I know is unusual since many people my age are all about "changing things up," but I am a traditionalist and prefer to remain very conservative in my BSA views. It has worked for 107 years, so I think there are values and patterns inherent in the program that the world needs now more than ever.

Yeah, there is no way the BSA will be phasing out neckerchiefs any time soon, and thank goodness! The neckerchief is the most recognizable part of the Scouts uniform, not to mention the only really useful part of it!

How the boys feel about the necker' is usually a reflection of how the leader feels about it. The boys in my congregation's troop were always ambivalent about wearing neckerchiefs, until I came in one day and talked about the history of why we wear them, the dozens of ways in which they can be useful, etc. I then showed them all the neckerchiefs I have saved up from the time I was a little Wolf Scout, and then revealed to them that they actually had the privilege of choosing to wear whatever neckerchief they wanted - they had never been told how many color choices there were, and they were EXCITED! Each patrol had voted on a differently-colored necker' within 10 minutes. Later the SPL attended the monthly Committee Meeting and formally requested new neckerchiefs for each patrol, and now they wear them all the time - and as per BSA policy, when their Field Uniforms aren't practical, they go out with at least their neckerchiefs to identify them as Scouts!

In Cub Scouts, it's not even optional - my boys wear them, or they aren't counted as being in uniform. That's also BSA policy. And I have a few different ones, depending on what role I am filling at that particular event. The neckerchief is one of the best parts of the uniform! And luckily, the BSA seems to agree: 

http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/08/21/scout-neckerchiefs-now-approved-wear-nonuniform-clothing/

I think a recent move like this makes it pretty clear that the Boy Scouts of America won't be getting rid of this key uniform component any time soon, and hooray for that! I would hate to see such a wonderful tradition sacked just because a few self-conscious teenagers are too embarrassed to put a neckerchief around their neck, lol. 

I just want to note in addition to what @@Torchwood wrote, that not only is it entirely possible for a boy to earn his Eagle at 14, but also that we do a great disservice to young men of this age when we make sweeping generalizations that, at 14, they "cannot be learning leadership" or that boys of this age are "not worthy of the title." Frankly, I find such sentiments to be utterly untrue and unfair to the young men who achieve and accomplish in the face of such accusations. I have known boys of 14 who are far better leaders and citizens than even their own parents and Scoutmasters, and there are indeed many such youth who are sober-minded, quick to observe, and keenly aware of their responsibilities and potential. In fact, I find much more to admire in a pro-active young man who works hard to earn his Eagle at 14, than the multitudes of boys who procrastinate their efforts until they are 17 years and 360 days old and then expect adults to sweep in and get all the work done, for fear that if they don't intervene, the boy won't 'earn' his Eagle. Yet I think that such a boy deserves it far less than the boy who works hard when he is young and eager to achieve.

Let us not think so little of our 14-year-old Eagles that we fail to recognize what they have achieved. Advancement is too often looked down upon as though it is a sign of something 'wrong;' how can this be? How quickly we forget or ignore the fact that if boys really are learning things like leadership, citizenship, and personal growth, then their advancement will be the evidence of it. Baden-Powell put it simply: "Advancement is like a sun-tan - something you get naturally whilst having fun in the outdoors." We should be glad to see advancement, not suspicious of it.

If your boy does want to be a part of a Troop with his friends, then yes, he may advance quickly. But it is very possible (though to the shock of some perhaps) that such is the result of the boys enjoying rich participation, which will naturally foster rapid advancement and achievement. This is not necessarily the result of force-feeding by adults as often as some would like us to believe. It is just as possible, if not even more likely, that being with friends in an adventure such as Scouting will yield a rich harvest of accomplishment and advancement - because they are doing it together, as friends. The way Scouting should be. And if he can get his Eagle done before Scouting has to compete with High School, sports, girls, cars, etc., then all the better. 

I am forever grateful that I earned my Eagle as a young 14 year-old, before I entered high school; otherwise I can't imagine ever having found time to complete it. It was a sobering honor, and while I was indeed young, I can assure you, I had had the principles and ideals of Scouting deeply ingrained into my character. Mind you, this was not that long ago for me, and I remember it well. If I didn't earn it then, I would never have had time to complete it later! And then I wouldn't have carried with me that special honor, which prompted me to make the choice last year that I would accept the call to serve as a Den Leader for our den of Webelos Scouts, and which has given me the drive to encourage a new generation of boys to work to respect, and earn, the rank of Eagle Scout. 

So - let your son go with what his heart tells him! As Stosh points out, its hard for adults to understand the reasoning of boys so young, but if we listen to them and let them lead, we will give them a far greater advantage than any 'superior' Troop can give him - the advantage, and gift, of Trust. Trust your son, and he will yield a harvest of maturity and achievement that just might surprise you. 

Well that's a cryin' shame - I would love to see it if anybody can figure out how to get those pictures to upload!

You own a MINT BSA SILVER BUGLE?!?!?!?

THAT is a treasure if ever there was one! If I had such a prize it would be hanging over my mantelpiece in all its glory; what a beautiful artifact to possess! 

Awesome, thanks for the extra information Stosh! Coming from a family of musicians, I have been bred to guard fine instruments with my life - I have already forbidden him from taking his nice trumpet on outdoor adventures; it's been regulated to indoor troop events until he can find a bugle that is durable enough to go along on his adventures. His dad works for a major computer technology company, so the kid won't have any problems getting a hold of a good bugle with enough hard work and begging, lol. I will forward the link you gave me to them right away.

In addition to that, one of my older brothers is a symphony clarinetist and he is asking his associates in the brass section for the name of an affordable teacher who could give the boy some tips on the differences between trumpet playing to bugling (I wish you were here to show him the ropes @Stosh). Hopefully we can get whomever we find to register as a Bugling merit badge counselor so that this young man can get the Bugling merit badge! This Scout in particular is exceptionally driven and quick to learn; I am confident he will master the basics in no time. We are lucky indeed!

I have (well, had, he just crossed over last month) an 11-year-old boy in my Webelos Den who takes trumpet at school, and is always anxious to play it. As it turns out he is also passionate about Scouting, and has always shown a keen interest in achievement and Scouting history. Well, I mentioned to him that the rarest merit badge of all is Bugling, and that Bugler counts as a position of responsibility towards Star and Life Scout - now he is trying to convince his parents to find him a bugling teacher! 

My fingers are crossed that in a couple of years we might be one of the precious few troops with a real bugler on hand!

I will never get why these people can't just find other organizations to join instead of insisting on tearing down the foundations of organizations like the BOY Scouts of America. But, whatever. At least I know that my chartered organization is extremely firm on this issue, so I don't have to worry about girls trying to get into my pack any time soon. Yeesh.

That old timer sounds like my kind of leader. 

Easy! By keeping up to date with the current standard, and then following it. At the present, we are told no more than three rows. So we keep no more than three rows until they say otherwise, then if they do alter their stance, we change accordingly. Simple!

Honestly, they aren't changing this policy every other week; and these 'back and forth changes' people claim to have been so confused about have been over the course of many years. This isn't hard to keep up with! It really isn't a big deal if every few years we have to take a few off, or put a few on - is it? I just don't get the problem I guess. Whatever is current, well, do that. Then if they change, a few minutes of sewing or cutting is all it takes to keep up to standard. The whole point is that it shouldn't be a big deal to make a few minuscule alterations if it means being properly uniformed. 

Cooking stoves get really hot, I recommend you not touch them. 

This made my day Stosh; I nearly laughed myself out of my chair. But it is of course absolutely true; a recommendation is not a licence to do whatever you want; it's recommended because there is a legitimate reason for it. I would never be so flippant as to disregard counsel just because 'it's only a recommendation.'

Indeed; this is a case of apples and oranges. On a military uniform, you wear whatever awards you have earned in keeping with military regulations and standards. But when you wear the Boy Scout uniform, again, you wear it in keeping with BSA regulations and standards. If the military allows him to wear all those ribbons on his jacket, that's fine - I have no knowledge of how their awards are to be worn, so I am in no position to say anything. But I do know that earning dozens of military honors has no bearing on how one wears the BSA uniform.

Just because your branch of the U.S. Military allows you to wear ribbons up to your neck doesn't mean you can do the same on the Boy Scout uniform. We are not a military organization; we have our own policies on uniform wear, and they should be followed. You would hope an officer as decorated as he would understand the principles of obedience and decorum, which weigh heavily on wearing the uniform correctly. Clearly Mike Walton has earned many awards; all the more power to him. But just what exactly are we trying to communicate when we wear all of those awards at once? Even as "conversation starters," about what, pray-tell, is the conversation supposed to be? How many honors you've received? I would find such a conversation boring and self-serving in the extreme. Is there any reason to wear awards that exceed BSA policy that isn't in some way showing off?

Again, I am speaking of BSA policy only. I have no opinions on military regulation since I am not a part of the armed forces and maintain nothing but a citizen's firm respect for their role and organization. It is not my place to scrutinize their uniform codes; I am speaking purely of the Boy Scouts of America and the official instruction we receive from National.

Thank you for this Stosh. I have seen and used many of these quotes, but not in the rich context found through this link. I have always admired Baden-Powell's devout spirit and religious convictions, and we would do well to remind others that our movement is fundamentally a religious one. Especially in this nation, Scouting should enjoy the privilege of maintaining its own religious character in spite of what the rest of the world might wish it to become.

A wonderful, timely link indeed. Thanks again.

By my beard, how dare he? Doesn't he know better?!?

Except, of course, that those aren't square knots, that's not a BSA Scout uniform, and he is actually following correct uniform procedure for his day and that organization, which was of course the British Royal Army, of which he was an actual general, AND the fact that he is Lieutenant General Robert Stephenson Smyth Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell himself, and that man can do WHATEVER HE WANTS AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED. When a Scouter reaches that level of accomplishment, maybe they can wear more than three rows too, haha.

I did have a good laugh though of course, thanks Stosh! Ha ha ha

I come from a family of artists, and was raised in "ennobling poverty." My father did what he loved - acting and singing, while my mother did what she loved - raising her children. Their parents did much the same We never had much, but then we never wanted much, and we paid our tithing in church and lived frugally within our means. They were fortunate to fine a lovely, albeit tiny home in a beautiful part of southern California, and we have been here for 30 years eking out a living on what some would call "crushing poverty" but which we simply call "lesser means." We weren't poor - we just didn't have any money. And frankly, our indigent circumstances had nothing to do with our happiness as a family, our opportunities as children, or our ability to participate in wonderful programs growing up. We took advantage of financial help when needed, but worked hard to earn our part when we could. My parents simply taught us that if we ever wanted to go anywhere or do anything, we had to earn it. Of the seven children in my family, all seven went to elite universities on academic scholarship. And all the while, we were told again and again by my parents to DO WHAT YOU LOVE and that will make your living for you. Money has never been a motivation for any of us, and so far, it's brought up three generations of happy marriages, successful careers, and fruitful homes. 

So, if this kid really wants to go into Scouting, he should be encouraged, not turned away from it. I commend him for being able to put up with the monotony of the program for a while in order to follow a career that he really loves.

That is sadly true, although I think that is a sorry excuse for allowing it. I prefer to expect better of the boys I work with. Growing up, I sometimes I felt like my brother and I were the only Scouts in our entire district who found such 'humor' both woefully distasteful and utterly unfunny. I still think so. And while I know that I can't eliminate it entirely (though I do my best) the boys under my supervision, both as a teacher and a den leader, are very much on their guard not let any of that kind of humor cross my ears. I have mastered the art of what I would describe as the "professor's withering gaze of disapproval," although the boys call it my "Look of Death," a colloquial name for it that I have rather grown to appreciate. I have even had boys caught using such language or humor turn away from my face and shout "I won't do it again just please don't give me THE LOOK!"

Ah, the joys of knowing my lessons are sinking in.

So, yeah. I am sure once my Webelos move up to the Scouting program they will be exposed to all kinds of horrors and vulgarities, but at least as Webelos they'll have none of it as long as I'm in charge. And in the Cub Scouts at least, I actually am in charge! I would fare much worse in the Boy Scout program where I wouldn't be in charge any more, lol. 

@@ShutterbugMom, I know how hard it can be to help boys come up with a Den/Patrol yell from first-hand experience! When I was a new Webelos Scout leader (never just "Webelo"; that's not a word!), I worked on getting our den a name and flag early; we became "The Merry Archers" with a cool-looking Robin Hood character on our patch, but for multiple reasons the boys could not/would not come up with a decent yell. I gave them lots of examples from old Boy's Life magazines from the 40's and 50's (back when they really knew how to use Patrol yells) and explained to them that our yell would be used to "let others know that we have arrived" (to quote Scout materials from the 30's) and as a call-and-response system during activities. And they are best when they are short and simple - a single coyote's howl is perfectly sufficient for the purposes of a den or patrol call. 

But they couldn't come to any agreement, nor could they think of anything reasonably like a den yell. So, I waited, and every week for over a month I would give them 10 minutes or so to come up with something. As they continually either goofed off or failed to reach a consensus, I finally told them "look - you don't have to pass off this requirement. And I don't have to give you the Scouting Adventure adventure pin, and you don't have to earn your Arrows of Light; it's okay! I'll just explain to your parents that you don't want to earn any of this." Then I smiled and said "unless, of course, you can come up with something together."

20 minutes later  (after we had started a completely different activity of course, because they are 10) one boy stood up and out of the blue shouted "Archers aim high ... Bull's eye!" The boys loved it (excepting one who hated it but voted for it anyway so we could get the dang thing signed off, bless his heart) and I didn't have anything to do with its creation.  All I did was remind them that it had to be their work, and that if they didn't work together, it wouldn't happen. At 10 years old that's plenty of motivation. But they got the three things that you can and must give them at this age:

1. Good examples after which they can pattern their own work

2. Time to create or perform the activity

3. Freedom to make it their own

Since then, I have used our den call in very much the old-fashioned way since it lends itself particularly well to call-and-response usage. When we are at pack meetings and there is a lot of activity, or out exploring and the boys are wandering around the woods, all that I or any other boy has to do to find the others is yell "Archers aim high!" and they have been trained to stand immediately and reply "Bull's eye!" no matter what they are doing. They even have a "shooting the arrow" action that goes with it, which has become so reflexive that there have been a few instances of refreshments being spilled all over the place when a boy has heard the call and jumped up to perform the response without thinking. In fact it's become something of a sick game among the boys to see how much disturbance they can make by shouting the first part of the yell and seeing what mischief comes as boys in the middle of various activities suddenly jump up to make the reply ... actually, maybe the boys aren't the only ones who get a kick out of the practice. 

Anyway - your group has it particularly easy. Animal calls are always the easiest to use in patrol yells, Historically in fact, the earliest calls, created by Baden-Powell himself, were simply the different calls of different animals, and were used to help patrol members find or identify each other out in the woods. In fact, it was expressly forbidden for boys to use the calls of other patrols, to the point that it was considered shameful and dishonorable to do so. A patrol's call was something that was used practically, but treated with a great deal of respect. I have tried to create that same feeling with my Webelos Scouts to great success. I am sure if you give them good models of ideal calls, time to stew on it over a few weeks even, and the freedom to truly let it be their own creation, they will come through. And remind them that you don't have to give them their Arrows of Light if they don't want to do it. 

@@mashmaster I think the guidelines you have established are perfectly fine. Any skit that has to resort to one of those items to be "funny" is in desperate need of a little more imagination. There are hundreds if not thousands of skits available online, the vast majority of which are perfectly acceptable even under your stipulations. If the boys "can't find anything," its not from the lack of material as much as from the lack of trying.

Side note, I always find it amusing when people say "I never did/always did such-and-such, and I turned out okay!" I can't help but find myself asking, "but did you really?" 

I think the key is being judicious and having a sense of taste and propriety, which admittedly is sorely lacking nowadays. Current BSA guidelines indicate that no more than three rows, or nine knots, should be worn on the uniform. So if you have earned nine such knots, great - wear them. But once you reach such a level that you have earned 10 knots or more, this is when you need to decide which knots mean most to you, and which you want to display. This might vary according to the image you want to convey; perhaps you want people to see your heroism awards so that you can talk about how Scouting can save lives; perhaps you have received one of the Scouting Service awards and want to draw attention to the cultural or special needs groups you work with. Perhaps your Eagle or your religious knot means a great deal to you personally. Those are all, I suppose, good reasons to select which nine knots you will wear.  

However - there are those who think that if you earn it, you should wear it. My question is: why? Are nine knots not good enough? Are you worried people will not give you the "respect" you think you deserve because they don't know that "THANK YOU I HAVE ACTUALLY EARNED 14 KNOTS SO RESPECT ME DARN IT?!" If you can't be happy wearing nine knots - which, mind you, is A LOT OF KNOTS, then you need to question why you wear them in the first place.

Many people know how to wear the uniform properly, but fewer know how to wear it gracefully. Wearing more knots than are officially recommended might be done under the pretext that they are there to start conversations (as though this was somehow virtuous in and of itself) or justified by the claim that "I earned them so don't I have the right to wear them?" or even the idea that others will see them and "be inspired" to serve based on seeing all of their knots (honestly I cannot imagine anybody registering as a Scouter because they saw somebody's knots, and if so, what a bizarre reason to join!). In any case, these people would rather ignore policy in favor of recognition; it's their choice. But what it says is not so much that they have earned many awards, which indeed speaks to a person's good works, as much as the fact that they want others to know that they have earned them. And that also speaks volumes about a person's character.

It brings to mind Matthew 6:2 "Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward."

and then in verse 21, "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

Are our hearts on the Scouts themselves, or on the knots we are awarded by serving them?

Let's not forget however, that Bugler DOES count as a position of responsibility for both Star and Life rank. As one prepares to receive the Eagle rank, fewer positions are serviceable. But it is still an acceptable role for the ante-penultimate/penultimate ranks, so it hasn't lost as much importance as some seem to fear. :-) 

I personally think it's a wonderful idea. 18-year-olds are often underestimated and looked at as "taller-teens," when in actuality an adventure like this could be loads of fun, especially since he would be interacting with a group composed of people who are likely much older than he is. He can learn from their experience, and frankly they would have a lot to learn from him. I think that if he already wants to go, he has the right attitude, and will make the most of it. Boredom is a choice, so as long as nobody lets him know that that's an option at WB, he'll never think to choose it. You have a willing leader-in-the-making. Give him the tools he wants to become what he clearly wants to be.

So glad Bryan posted that article! I love getting official answers. 

 

Hat tip: Thanks to Edward, the eagle-eyed commenter who let me know about this

That was me! Maybe I should change my screenname to Eagle-Eyes, lol. 

I concur with Stosh, as usual. Troop 1 is the group your boy likes, and others are going there as well. Who cares what the DL tells them? You are the parent, and your opinion is worth a thousand times more than anything the DL tells these kids. If you and your son participate in making Troop 1 a success from the day your son bridges over, he will have a far better experience during the crucial first-six-months than he ever could with the other Troops that he doesn't know and can't reach as easily. This option is close by, friendly with your son, and sounds like a great group to join. Troop 1 sounds perfect. Go with it! And get the other parents to go with it too!

Ah, @@4CouncilsScouter, thank you so much for the information! Does this mean then that each of the the awards will still exist as individual honors, but share one square knot between them, or that the awards themselves are being conglomerated into one single award with one single square knot? 

I am so grateful that you have some information on this; thanks again!