jjlash

Pioneering merit badge pamphlet, BSA handbook and BSA fieldbook would be good places to start to learn pioneering skills.  Beyond that your Scouts will need some imagination to either envision the thing they are supposed to build - or imagination to turn the drawings/sketches they were given into the real thing.

Definitely don't skip that station.  Let the Scouts do their best and when they get to that station ask for examples or demonstration.  Regardless, how well they do with their lashings, this will be way more memorable than sitting in a merit badge classroom.

23 hours ago, docSquatch said:

I'd also be willing to take any advice you might have on being a MBC. 

Please do take the online MBC training to ensure you know how that part of the program is supposed to work.  Don't rely on what you remember from your time as a Scout and don't rely on what other (well intentioned) leaders tell you - go straight to the source.

25 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

I'm not clear on why this is a merit badge.  Surely the basic tenets of Scouting already incorporate these ideas.

Yes, the basic tenets of Scouting incorporate the ideas but they do not, in themselves, raise awareness of different kinds of diversity, and what equity and inclusion looks like for different groups or different circumstances.  Our goal is to make "good human beings" and Eagle Scouts should be the best examples of this - so it seems like a really good life skill for Eagle Scouts to have had an introduction to DEI beyond what they might experience in their own little corner of the world.

I have not been involved with Cubs in many years - before the Cyber Chip was added - so take this from an almost-outsider.  It seems to me this discussion is missing an opportunity and possibly missing the point.  What I read is that your kids do have access to the internet - it is restricted and supervised - but they do have access.  I read the intent of the waiver option as being for kids (families) who truly have no access - or no practical access. 

The requirement does not say for them to do the Cyber Chip on their own, or by themselves and I don't think that is the intent.  The whole Cub program, and especially the Tiger program, is intended to be done with a parent/guardian/family.  So - isn't the solution as simple as spending the time to do the Cyber Chip together with your Scout(s)?

29 minutes ago, David CO said:

Units aren't allowed to solicit funds in the name of scouting.  This is just one of many contradictions in BSA policy.  Units cannot raise funds in the name of scouting, but unit funds belong to BSA because they were raised in the name of scouting.  Pure self-serving double-talk.  BSA is just trying to intimidate CO's into turning over their property.  Or, worst yet, BSA is encouraging unit leaders to steal camping equipment from their former CO's.

 

"Units aren't allowed to solicit funds in the name of scouting" does not equal "Units cannot raise funds in the name of Scouting"

Units absolutely can raise funds in the name of Scouting.  Fill out the "unit money earning application", get it approved by the district exec and off you go for any number of sales or service fundraisers.  What units cannot do is ask for "donations" - i.e. please give us money (for a project or not) just because we asked.  That avenue is reserved for councils.

That distinction does not change the discussion about who owns the money or items accumulated by a unit.  Im solidly in the camp of - the CO owns everything and the council should have no control/influence/benefit over it.

For Philmont we roll everything except souvenirs into one price and split it to 3 or 4 payments.  We start collecting money as soon as we get confirmation of a spot - before we need to send any to Philmont.  We have a parent-required info meeting up front where we go over the costs, schedules and participation requirements and have them sign a commitment form. 

We tell them that Philmont doesn't give refunds so we can't give refunds.  In reality we would consider giving a refund of what we have collected but not yet spent, if losing the that person would not drop us below the Philmont minimum (or if we could find a replacement).  

The catch-22 is this - if there is some kind of emergency that they cannot go, you want to be supportive as best you can.  You don't want to lose a family because they lost $1000 on top of grandma dying.  The other scenario is a Scout who just changes his mind - you might not care about being supportive but you surely don't want a Scout on the trek who does not want to be there.  Philmont rangers tell stories of Scouts who break bear-protocol rules on purpose so they will get sent home.   Definitely don't want them along.

One other option - for a big expense like Philmont we usually talk to the parents about trip cancellation insurance. There are lots of places online to purchase it and it is usually pretty inexpensive compared to the cost of the trip.   The ones that Ive purchased in the past are very broad coverage - meaning they cover most any reason for cancelling.

Naw, you didnt miss the Eagle Scout team.  I only saw them 3 times for about 3 seconds each - just barely long enough for their name to flash on the screen as they moved past the camera.

When you watch the final episode and they show the teams crossing the finish line - pay attention to how long it took them.  It was interesting to see the time for the fastest teams compared to the slowest.  I cant imagine pushing yourself that hard (with so little sleep) for 11 days straight.  

On 8/10/2020 at 3:42 PM, Jackdaws said:

  When I was the district training chair, I actually ran both courses together but in different modules.  I know I will get flamed for it, but to me the courses were fairly similar and the only real difference was the needing to camp overnight (at the time BALOO didn't require camping) and a couple more older skills like an ax yard and other things that make running a troop more advanced than a pack.   Why not have those people who are coming to BALOO kill 2 birds with one stone and get IOLS also?  I felt it would also help towards leadership retention.   We only did it once because scheduling of instructors was difficult at the time.  

 

Yep, there is overlap in the list of skills but the purpose for them and the approach to delivering them is different.  I can't find a reference, but as I recall, about the same time National blasted training chairs with "IOLS cannot be done online" they also hit us with "do not combine BALOO and IOLS". 

We used to do like you - combine groups for the skills that overlap.  Now we schedule both courses the same weekend at the same camp so we can share instructors.  We make clear that they are teaching the same skill but they need to follow the curriculum for each course to ensure the delivery is correct for the audience.

From page 6 of the IOLS facilitator guide:

Quote

No test-out option is available for this course, even in the case of those who are experienced in the outdoors. The experiential nature of participating in a patrol and troop, as well as engaging in various methods of learning, provides benefits much greater than just learning the outdoor skills taught.

For IOLS the skills are only part of the purpose.  The other part (even for experienced scouters) is to have that experience of being a new Scout - being in a group of people you might not know, going through the stages of team development, working together, the fellowship.  It never hurts to have a refresher on the skills - the way BSA wants things taught does change from time to time.

The other path Ive used for someone who believes they should not have to go through training - have them help teach the course.  

Naturally - during this time of restrictions we'll have to find ways to hold the courses that works within the restrictions  and makes people feel comfortable.  It is entirely possible - in fact off the top of my head there should be very few changes necessary since there is nothing in IOLS or BALOO that involves close personal contact.

My Troop is having their first campout this week.  They are doing 3 days, mid-week at a county park (only one other camper in the park).  They are doing 1 per tent and are not doing patrol cooking - meals are being prepared and served by the adults [ick].  "Family night" is parents bringing food for them and their Scout only.  Everything is on paper/plastic, no dish washing [again, ick].  I dont know what they were told about masks.  When I was there today they were all outdoors and not wearing masks but also not paying much attention to distancing.

I wouldnt worry about what NTier sets up for trips - focus on the neat things to see then build a route that takes in several of them.  Prairie Portage is neat and they can get a picture at the Canada sign.  Robbins Island is neat - there is "bacon rock" and some remnants of Dorothy Molter's lodge (stop at the museum before hand to learn about Dorothy).  There are some pictographs between Jordan and Ima.  Cattyman Falls is nice.  You'd have to look it up - I remember there are some old pilings and a sunken steam ship in the south part of Basswood - near the end of 4-mile portage as I recall.

If you want to get away from the Moose Lk area - we went in at Mudro last year then up to Fourtown and Gun lake areas.  Very nice and fewer people.

Hey @John-in-KC I see Summit published something yesterday that gives more detail than I would.

https://www.summitbsa.org/aditl-screening/?fbclid=IwAR3UYYbMGp5vUqkbRncxTGeqtLqHTeEfAWv0QbO5xiz8x7ZjyHhAKLnHZrc

3 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

 Basically, I just can't walk very far.  If I were to attend, could provisions be made to help with getting from place to place? 

 

The course does have a lot of movement between locations plus the hike to the overnight location.  At Philmont it is held in the backcountry so arranging transportation would be a challenge (though not impossible if PTC really wanted to support it).  I have never been to Summit and do not know how the locations we'll use for various activities are laid out.  I'll message you to get an email address and put you in touch with our course director so he can check with Summit folks.

It is not my place to share specifics - I do not speak for Summit, details will vary by program or activity, and of course they are subject to change as things evolve.  People who are going to Summit have been (or will be) contacted with details for their specific trek/activity/arrival.  

I can share some broad information, such as - the medical staff is reviewing where people/units are coming from, how they are traveling and their med forms to determine their risk level.  Risk level will determine the level of screening people will receive on arrival.  

As you can imagine, PPE, hand sanitizing and social distancing are part of the procedures.

Housing, dining and program activities will be adjusted/arranged/organized to ensure group sizes follow CDC / WV health department guidelines.  

As of now (May 27) the July session of Summit Leadership Challenge and NAYLE are happening.  If your summer plans have been cancelled, and if you are open the travel and being around other people - this could be your chance to attend.  

Summit has specific health procedures for everyone visiting the reservation, and we are working with Summit medical staff to adjust our program for things like group size and number of tents.

This will be the first time the Leadership Challenge course has been run independently held at Summit.  When the course was held in 2015 it was basically done as an adult patrol in the NAYLE course.  It has been canceled for low registrations each time since 2015.  You could be part of the first!

For those who TL;DR this thread, the course is 6 days of activities and scenarios which provide context to practice leadership skills.  Activities include challenge events (low COPE), geocaching, wilderness first aid (with moulage), search and rescue, leave no trace and radio usage.  There is an overnight backpack trek, a conservation project and a trip to the Big Zip.  The course builds on the skills from WB but there is none of the WB course (i.e. no song, no totems, no critters) - the focus is on servant leadership and the participant experience.

Registration is still open: https://www.summitbsa.org/programs/training/

Hawkeye Area Council (east-central Iowa) has just announced that all June camps and activities are cancelled.  Decision will be made by May 15 for July camps and activities.

Welcome to the forums.  Thanks for asking about licensing.  

Short version - if the shirt uses any BSA protected images or words/phrases, it must be produced by a licensed vendor to be legal.  Here is all the info you need:  http://licensingbsa.org/

They used to have a type of license for what you are wanting to do, and it was free (or very inexpensive).  I dont find that type of license now - I'd call and ask.  OR - just dont use protected images.

1 hour ago, mashmaster said:

My son is going to try to make a pioneering project for a hammock stand when car camping.   anyone done this before?  We were thinking of two tripods and a spreader between the tripods.

 

Do some searches for a "turtledog hammock stand".  TurtleDog is a user name for the person on HammockForums.net who created the stand.  It is just what you are asking for - two tripods with a spreader between the tops.  People make them from many materials - mine is from 2x2 lumber and a chainlink fence top-rail.

The suggestion I would make is to make the tripods tall enough.  I made the legs of my tripods 6ft so it would fit in my vehicle.  When it was all set up with the tripods wide enough to be stable, they were so short that the hammock was less than a foot off the ground.  I like it a little higher so it is easier to get in/out of.

14 hours ago, ParkMan said:

On another tangent - I always wondered how one becomes an area/region Scouter.  

Could be $$$ as @David CO says.  The ones I know were active with things and/or volunteered.  One who is active at the area level with commissioner stuff got that way by being a very active local commissioner and volunteering a lot with the neighboring commissioner college.  Through that he met the other area/region people so became "who you know".

On the other hand - there is an opening right now for C3 NYLT coordinator.  It was announced in the central region training newsletter.  I gave about 1.25 seconds thought to submitting my own name.

I agree @ParkMan - there is not much information about the course.  And I find that to be true for all of the Training Center courses.  In fact, I find it to be true for Wood Badge - except that WB has been around so long and there us such a large body of people who have attended that it is very easy to find people who talk about it and write about it unofficially.

Leadership Challenge is really no different than other courses.  Even though it is put on by National and held at a training center it is still run entirely by volunteers.  And that includes the promotion and recruiting. 

I was just re-reading the flyers that they post for the course.  It does a "just okay" job of stating the purpose of the course (practical application of WB skills) but there is zero marketing language.  There is nothing to get someone excited.  Or even pique their interest.  

You are absolutely right that we should do better if we want it to grow.  Im going to capture the highlights of this discussion and pass it along to the course director (and the Scouting-U folks if I get the chance) so we can do better. Thank you!

37 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

I think this is what people are looking for when they ask for a syllabus. Like for a college course. 2-3 pages, maybe double sided, with an outline. A syllabus is not a staff manual or even student book.  If too much is given away by a syllabus, I would question the depth of the training. For the cost and the time investment, it is funny that they don’t have a bit more than a glossy brochure and a “trust is, it is good” approach. 

Ah....that makes sense.

What is available seems to change from year to year.  The Philmont Training Center website used to list many of the activities - that is what made me interested in attending 5 years ago.  Now it doesnt mention any of the activities (and the Summit website has even less).  But if you scroll way down there is a link to the PLC Guidebook.  It also doesnt mention any of the activities but it does give some insight with things like a gear list.  

2 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Thank you again @jjlash.  This continues to be great background info and very helpful as I discern whether this is a good fit for me.  My sense is yes - this would be helpful in continuing to grow as a leader in Scouting - particularly in this era with parents and leaders from so many backgrounds.

I checked again and we're still on for a summer family trip that same week.  I'll have to keep it on the list for 2021.

I understand - it took me 3 years to make the schedule and money work so I could attend.   

For both DAM and Silver Beaver we carry forward non-selected nominations for 1 year.  That is - new nominations that were not selected to receive the award are automatically kept and are considered again next year.  They are only carried forward 1 year - if they are not selected the second year they are destroyed and must be re-nominated for future consideration.

When I facilitated the DAM selection, I had everyone read all of the nominations and decide on their own order/ranking.  After that I let them decide how to choose.  Since they each had the nominations in order it was usually pretty quick to narrow the choice down and "negotiate" for the final selection.  Usually there were a few that everyone agreed on and a few that everyone agreed did not make the cut.  

For Silver Beaver, the facilitator was kind of strict - we all read the nominations and gave each a score.  But it was not a ranking it was a points kind of thing.  For example, we had 9 nominations but instead of scoring them 1-9 with no duplicates, we just assigned them each 1 to 9 points (1 is the best).  At the end the facilitator collected our scores, added them up and the lowest scores win.  There are some flaws with this approach that didnt set well with me but the discussion about it was shut down so I just played the game their way.

3 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I keep imaging 6 days of team building activities.  I'm sure it's a lot more than that, but this is one of those times the vagueness isn't helping me.

Btw - gotta admit, having a Summit version is a good thing.  The course fee is reasonable for this and it's nice that as a East Coast person I can drive there.

You are right that it is 6 days of team building activities - but they are not the simple/staged/forced/artificial activities that you're probably envisioning.  Things are more scenario based.  Without giving anything away, the activities include: cooking (crews prepare their own dinners), challenge events (low COPE), wilderness first aid scenarios, realistic first aid (moulage), geocaching challenge, search and rescue scenarios.  Woven into these is a lot of West Virginia history and several practical skills like LNT, UTM and using radios in a field exercise.  There is a backpacking overnight, a conservation project and a rededication to Scouting ceremony.

You can see how there is lots of team building opportunity without being traditional team building activities.  And remember - this is not an outdoor skills session, it is a leadership session.  You will (may) learn some new outdoor skills or activities that you can take back to your unit but the focus for the course is on the leadership aspects of the activity.

Philmont is in my soul but Im excited to visit Summit and have that whole new experience.  And, I too can drive so that's a bonus.

Thanks for all the comments - this has gone a wee bit off topic....

There is still a bunch about the Summit session that I dont know yet, but I see in the schedule that participants get to visit the Consol Energy Bridge, the Sustainability Treehouse and get to ride the Big Zip.