Ranman328

In our Troop we allow First Class and above Scouts to sign off on First Class and below Scouts Rank Advancement.  We feel it helps with Leadership.  We do have a discussion with all new First Class Scouts to ensure they follow the "Describe", "Show", "Demonstrate" instructions for making certain the Scouts completed the requirement.

On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 10:02 AM, TMSM said:

This is what I do as SM. My son is now a Life Scout and I do plan on doing his Scout Master Conference for Eagle although with one of my ASMs.

I think when it is all done, you will be glad you did.  You also get to experience those campouts and events all over again.  I know I would have regretted not doing it.  Just enjoy the moment.

2 hours ago, CarlosD said:

Hi all,

I became our unit's SM back in March. I have two sons in our troop. I have not checked off any requirements for them, to avoid any appearance of conflict of interest. Do BSA guidelines prohibit the SM or other Adult Leader from checking off son's requirements for rank advancement or merit badges? Can the SM hold an SM conference with his/her son?

Thanks.

In our Troop, we don't have any rules prohibiting it.  I have two sons in the Troop and if anything, they get held to a higher standard by me as the Scoutmaster for that very reason also.  But, that being said "A Scout is Trustworthy".  I have signed off on several things in both of my sons handbooks.  I have also been their Merit Badge Counselor.  On Tuesday, I conducted my Sons Eagle Scoutmaster Conference.  Who else better to do it than me, I have been with him on his Scouting Adventure since he was a Tiger.  It lasted almost 45 minutes and we could have talked all night.  I did have another ASM sit in and he asked some questions as well.  All in all, it was a great experience.  If you have the chance, don't miss out on it.  Your sons will have worked hard and you will have been right by their side.

10 hours ago, David CO said:

Life is hard. We don't need to make it any harder.

Now wearing a uniform makes it harder.  Sad

14 hours ago, David CO said:

Compared to other people in my position (IH), I was considered to be very involved and supportive of the scouting program. Probably not so much if you compared me to the unit leaders. Certainly not if you compared me to many of the die-hard scouters on this forum.

I think the viewpoint of the IH and the Chartered Organization is often missing from the forum.  My CO couldn't care less if the scouts wear a uniform.

 

 

Again and I'm sorry but as the IH and CO, you have no say in BSA Policy.  You are suppose to promote Scouting according to BSA Policy and Guidelines not as YOU see fit which includes the uniform.  You should go back and read the Guide and Responsibilities of the Charter Organization or take some additional Training.  By allowing the bar to be lowered, we just accept a lower standard of our Scouts.  We are suppose to be helping guide and shape these Scouts to be future leaders of this country.  By allowing them to take the easy way out is not why we are here.  Life is hard and we have a responsibility to prepare them for it.

1 hour ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I had to tell my daughter who is a Junior and also a Webelos that she wont have a Scouts BSA troop next year.  Very disappointed.

Are you saying that there are not any Girl Troops in your area?  If not, I would contact your District Commissioner and have them get together with other Packs in the area with girls that want to cross over.  I am sure there are many businesses, churches, Moose Lodges, that would love to charter a Girl Troop.  Then I would contact local sports stores like REI and tell them your story.  Might get gently used equipment for donations.  That is absurd that no one will step up.

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 9:12 PM, David CO said:

There is nothing requiring or forcing scouts to wear a uniform either. It is not a choice between wearing a uniform or not joining. It is simply a choice between wearing a uniform or not wearing a uniform. They can join either way. That's the rule.

So David CO, why do you do Scouting then.  You constantly push back against everything that is Scouting.  I notice that you are one of the folks on this group that post negative comments about what Scouting is.  I don't get it.  If you don't want to wear a uniform or follow policies and want to do the exact opposite or find and pick each and every opening to do the opposite of what the program is really about, why do it.  Why not move on and find something that aligns with your views? 

On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 8:53 AM, David CO said:

No, it doesn't. That may have been true in 1920, when the traditional uniform of the time was universally accepted, but that isn't even close to being true today. Every country has its own distinct uniform. There is nothing universal about the scout uniform today.

So now we are talking about every country in the world to make the narrative fit right.  Yes, that is why we wear the uniform.  This is the problem with BSA today.  A great program was developed and is based on following the Scout Oath, Law, Outdoor Code and the points of Scouting.  Also deeply rooted is TRADITION.  Things keep getting changed in some cases just to change things other times, people want to come in and cause trouble just to cause trouble. 

BSA has a program with a rules, policies and yes, we wear a uniform.  Again, I say, if you don't want to follow the rules, policies and wear a uniform, then don't join.  There is nothing requiring or forcing anyone to join. There is the four H club, the Boys and Girls clubs, and so on. 

18 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

Out of curiosity, you say in BSA we wear a uniform for a reason, what is the reason you would give for that?  It's surely not because the uniform is a superior way to dress for outdoor activities.  The uniform can be appropriate attire,  but it can also be incorrect depending on the activity and the uni.  In our troop we preach no cotton on winter outings, but there are certainly cotton uniforms, even the poly ones are good but not superior to other clothing. 

I still believe in the uniform, but just to push back a little, did your players wear their baseball uniform every time they met as a team?  For practice, for banquets?  And why did they have uniforms?  In sports it distinguishes between opposing teams, but in scouts we don't have an opposing team and the better we're doing scouting the better chance there's nobody around but us.

Our troop does a lot in uniforms, but we never send a scout home because he doesn't have one.

Once again go as far to the other end as possible.  Yes we wear a uniform for a reason.  Pride, Unity, are two examples.  No we do not wear our dress, Class A, Field Uniform to everything.  We have a Class B or Utility uniform we wear to do work, summer events, etc.  Yes, my baseball teams wore a practice uniform to practice.  Yes, football players wear a practice uniform, as do soccer and lacrosse.  Not sure where you are going with this other than oppose my post.  Never did I say I would send anyone home if they didn't wear a uniform.  I frankly, am offended you would even suggest that I did.  I am a Scoutmaster that tells his scout I would rather have them there not in uniform instead of them not being there at all. 

BUT SINCE YOU ASKED, SCOUTS WAS STARTED BY LORD BADEN-POWELL AND I THINK HE SAID IT BEST AND HE SAYS ABOUT THE BOY SCOUT UNIFORM:

"The uniform makes for brotherhood, since when universally adopted it covers up all differences of class and country!"  ANY QUESTIONS?  Does that cover why we wear a uniform.  Thanks

Sorry but I was a baseball coach and now a Scoutmaster.  In BSA, we wear a uniform for a reason.  If one of my players showed up not in his baseball uniform then you dint play.  My question to the people pushing back on the uniform is this.  Would you show up at your Softball, baseball, soccer, football, lacrosse, hockey game wearing jeans and a T-Shirt and expect to play? No, why? Because it doesn't fit to the activity.  We wear a uniform,. If you don't want to wear one, don't join.  

1 minute ago, Eagledad said:

This discussion is exactly what many experienced scouters on this forum  predicted would happen. The non scouting public identifies Scouting only by the Eagle. And by golly the girls parents are going to get it for them.

Greenbar who?

Barry

This is the concern I posted on another discussion thread and I can't tell you how many times I was slapped on the nose with the newspaper.  I do hope all the talk of "Eagle, Eagle, Eagle" is just the initial excitement of the girl program but I fear it is not.  Most of these girls have not earned Scout or Tenderfoot yet but we are talking about Eagle. 

I was at our Troop Shed recently which is at our CO location on a Friday evening.  They have a large property with a Pavilion and field where they let Scouts camp for free.  Our lone girl Troop in the District was going to camp there that weekend.  I had to take my son to the lower field because he is putting in a stage at the fire pit for the Scouts to do skits and things and he needed to take some measurements.  This is his Eagle Project.  As we drove through the area, we noticed two of the Scoutmasters and one mom already there and they had set up the camp kitchens, and tents and already had a stack of chopped wood for the fire.   Not a single Scout in sight.  That would have been a great opportunity to let the girls do it and check off a bunch of requirements at one event.

14 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I'll add a few that I think are key

• Weight when empty - Gear only adds more weight.  Our trailer is 6x12 or 7x12 and must be 1500+ pounds empty.  So even empty, vehicles are affected by the trailer.  On one camp out, we rented a low profile UHaul aluminum trailer.  We had that thing packed tight and you could still not feel it behind the car.  
• Wind drag - How high and what shape is the trailer?  Some trailers will pull easier than  others just because of shape and height.
• Steel or aluminum - This directly goes to weight but also affects cost.  But, a light weight trailer will save the volunteers money replacing their transmissions.  Seriously. 

I've been in multiple troops due to having too many sons.  For one troop, I regularly pulled their trailer.  In the other troop, I refused to pull the trailer as it was a beast filled to the brim with cast iron and heavy chuck boxes and stuff.  

I would easily advocate for a troop to spend a few extra thousand to get a good light weight trailer.  It's a matter of being kind and considerate to your current and future volunteers.  

Agree.  Our Troop is in the process of buying a new trailer.  Our current 1996 6x12 trailer is too heavy for everyone but me and my vehicle to pull.  We are looking to sell it and use some of the money to buy a new one.  They are so much lighter and easier to pull.  I have been eating the cost to rent a trailer for our recent campouts.  The easier you make it for volunteers to help, the more volunteers will help.

Case in point.  I just received this email with this news letter advertisement.  Decisions like this are the reason boys and families are leaving the program.  They are making exceptions for allowing girls to go to the World Scout Jamboree but not the boys.  I understand wanting to get the most participation but you can't make exceptions for one group and not allow the other the same exception.  This will open the door for questions to be asked and other exceptions to be made elsewhere and then where does it stop.

26 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I know of boys young men who no longer have an interest in serving Scouting who are in the 18-20 year old range because the BSA no longer trusts them due to their age. We spent years mentoring and advising them. They have more knowledge, skills, abilities, and EXPERIENCE than some of the new Scouters coming aboard, but they cannot be utilized. Heck, they can no longer be MBCs except at a summer camp or merit badge college. All because of their age an the new YP rules.

 

I completely agree with you.  I have two young men that earned their Eagle Badges and one aged out in December and the other in January and a third that will age out in June.  The two Eagles no longer attend meetings and have no interest in Scouts due to not being able to serve in a meaningful position.  Both served me well teaching Scouts and were respected by the Scouts and I am losing a great wealth of knowledge due to this new policy.  Funny how they are mature enough to serve in the military but not to be an ASM with BSA.  Sad times. 

Sadly, I do not see BSA Membership increasing.  I don't think the girls will outpace the losses of the boys.  I know in my District alone, we are still at a loss in numbers.  Come December, we will lose 17 LDS troops alone.  I don't think we will ever recover from that.

I guess my question would be regarding the equipment issue is what would a new Troop have done say three years ago if they were just starting out?  My Troop donated stoves, tents, pots, pans, utensils, water jugs, chairs, coolers, propane tanks to the local girl troop in our area.  I personally don't know what would have happened a few years ago if it was a boy Troop.  I would assume that other Troops in the area would try to help out.  While I am not completely on board with the girl Troop issue, I do want them be successful.  I think it could have been handled better. 

On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 12:11 AM, 1tree said:

Well to be blunt if I were the SM and heard a breath of this discussion the US would NEVER be at another meeting of my troop. End of story. I would first speak to my COR, then to my DE and make it clear. I would call and have said person removed for trespassing if he/she showed up at another unit event. But also for a more complete discussion lets take a moment and see the requirement as written:

4b - Show the proper care of a rope by learning how to whip and fuse the ends of different kinds of rope.

Now which words state that the scout must put flame to the rope? We can argue all day long about what it means to learn to do this skill. And yes, my scouts torch the rope. Typically they create a quite ugly end. But the words demonstrate simply do NOT appear above.

To be clear, the job of the UC is not defender of the ranks. And quite frankly I believe the only real concern here is that some people are trying to make sure those girls don't get off easy. I think the UC and the poster should both go back and spend some time studying the Scout Oath and Law. They should take to heart "Help other people" and "Friendly, Courteous, Kind." They should spend some time encouraging the girls who are clearly motivated instead of getting hung up on technicalities they clearly don't understand. 

For the record, I look at the book repeatedly. I just don't trust that I know what the words actually say. My troop has been in operation a little more than three years and the requirements have been tweaked at least four times. And above all else, I remind myself regularly what the aims of scouting are.

  You do realize the UC is assigned to the unit by the District Commissioner and District right?  Are you really saying you would have a volunteer "Removed" for trespassing for doing their "Volunteer" job?  It is the UC's job to ensure the program is being delivered properly.  It is the Unit Commissioner's job to conduct a Detailed Unit Assessment annually which covers administration of the program.  I'm not sure where you got your impression of what a UC does but I believe you have been misinformed.  A good UC would show up unannounced to see how the Unit actually operates. 

I believe the concern is that the girls have the same program delivered to them as the boys and they have the same experience as the boys.  Isn't that why they wanted the program opened up to them in the first place? 

I do believe the requirement as you have stated in 4b says "SHOW" the proper care.  That tells me they must "SHOW" me how to whip and fuse a rope.  No sense playing trying to play word games now.  This is how it has been taught in my 15 years.

22 hours ago, MattR said:

You could have mentioned that no fire is required to whip a rope. And besides, go outside and fuse the rope.

Yep. I'd say it's better to get everything else signed off and then ask the scouts what they want to do about the ropes.

Again, not sure how the commissioner should best affect things.

I really wish we could stop picking posts apart.  Yes you are correct that fire is not needed for Whipping a rope but the requirement says "Whipping and Fusing" a rope. Which they apparently did not do but got signed off on, which is what this Commissioner's concern was.  I'm not here to argue the fine points.  I am not here to be picked apart from a discussion I had with another Commissioner because I did not pick apart his visit with a Troop.  I come here to get advice from long time Scouters who might have had the same type of situation in their Scouting and learn something possibly.  Lately, all I get is others picking apart posts like "Not calling them Girl Scouts" and now "I didn't mention fire is not required for Whipping,"  Really?  Can't we just go with a post, read it for what it is and give "Helpful" advice instead of picking people apart? 

Update:  Meeting was approximately three hours.  Seven scouts, none above 13, two were Webelos that did not earn AOL.  UC did not see any Patrol voting or Patrol decisions occur but he arrived about 15 minutes late to the meeting.  He did have an interesting that three Scouts did not even have their handbooks at the meeting.  No flags to be seen and did not conduct a closing ceremony.  Have a Scoutmaster and one Assistant Scoutmaster.  Conferences lasted about five minutes each.  They were only instructed how to "Whip and fuse a rope" but did not actually do it due to having fire or flame inside the building.  I advised him to monitor the Troop and give advice as he is a former Scoutmaster of 10 years himself.  My advice would be slow down and enjoy the program and absorb as much as you can because it is over before you know it.  I'm not sure what the rush is all about. 

On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 8:57 PM, David CO said:

I don't care who you that. It isn't true.

Looks like according to TAHAWK and BSA's Guide to Safe Scouting and our District and Council Executive, I was correct that Council should have been notified.

So I was asked for some advice by a "new" unit Commissioner of a new (edited by a mod) Scouts BSA troop of girls Unit about Advancement.  It appears that an entire Troop earned the Scout Rank Badge the first day they were in existence.  I find it hard to believe that an entire Troop were able to complete ALL the Scout requirements in one day.  Am I behind the times or being too naive about signing off on requirements.  I am a Scoutmaster and can't for the life of me see how anyone can earn the Scout Rank in one day.

4 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Yes I was...but more than a week later maybe just water over the dam?

No water under the bridge.  I am disappointed that same members are allowed to distort facts and give advice contrary to BSA Policy and no one corrects them. You @RememberSchiff of all people that I have followed for years always were a down the middle Scouter that I could always look to see how "You" did it for good direction.  Now you are a moderator that seems to blow things off and go "Whatever" when it comes to issues that might be "sensitive". This site was a great place for Scouters to come to for advice and ideas, now it is a place for people to air their Political views and Personal issues.  I received a beating for not being clear enough on a thread that was talking about a Scout being Suspended but because I didn't say "suspended" each time, my post wad taken out of context and I was treated like I kicked their dog or something.  No time did the moderators get involved.  Very sad.

On February 2, 2019 at 6:44 PM, David CO said:

I put your comment in bold.

This might make for an interesting discussion in another thread, but it has little to do with the current discussion. The OP's son did not have his membership revoked. He was suspended from participation in troop activities for 6 months. After that, the parent did not renew his membership.

I am sticking to my position. The unit leadership does not need to notify district or council. They can simply remove his name at re-charter time. Nothing more needs to be said.

 

My apologies to all that I was not crystal clear in the fact that we were all talking about a scout being "Suspended" and having his "Membership" revoked which is exactly what happened to this scout so let's not split hairs.  Yes according our Council Executive, you MUST report ANY Discipinary Decision that concludes in a Scout being suspended.  So YES, I was right in the fact that it should have been reported to the Camp, District and Council.  As a Unit Commissioner, if I found out this happened without it being reported, there would be a problem.  So @David CO, I hope you don't get caught in a situation like this.  good Luck!

Like it or not, this is where we are at now.  I personally am a Patriot, veteran, 30 year Federal Employee that loves his country.  God, Country and Family was one reason I joined Scouts many years ago.  I am sickened by all the disrespect we as a country show our country now. One of the most important things I make sure we do in our Troop is show respect for the Flag and Country. Every quarter we conduct a Flag Retirement Ceremony and properly retire them with a solemn ceremony and each flag is retired being carried by two scouts and saluted while "retired".  I am not sure how to react to a Scout taking a knee during the Flag Ceremony.  I am not sure they should be in Scouting.  Maybe join football where that type of behavior is acceptable.

On February 1, 2019 at 6:05 AM, RememberSchiff said:

As stated in 

"Members can "report" a topic or response which does not follow the Scout Oath and Law, by using the  "Report Post" feature in the upper right corner of the response."

You did not report your complaint to moderators who apparently saw no more than the usual back and forth.  Which topic(s) was this in?  

@MattR @desertrat  @NJCubScouter @LeCastor

Are you responding to my post?