Pselb

Walmart sells tobacco, alcohol and drugs yet no one complains when both the Girl Scout AND Boy Scouts sell outside the front entrance.  Like our computer science teacher said, "It's all fuzzy logic".  The traditional example to explain this: scoop up a handful of sand.  You have a handful of sand.  Take away one grain of sand, do you still have a handful of sand?  Take another off.  At what point does it become - "not a handful of sand"?  Personal morality is all Fuzzy Logic.  Everyone has a different position on the continuum.  There might even be those that oppose to selling outside of Walmart, you never know.  We go through the same thing with our sport /band fundraisers.  That's why we have booster clubs and the school admin doesn't get involved.

Just an observation: Is the organization "falling apart" because of the change in program or was the change in program meant to shore up a failing administrative structure?  I don't hear anyone addressing these issues.  Yes they take sides, the admin is bad/good, but what, if anything, is being done to identify and address the issues?  Whatever is not being done "at the top" leaves the heavy lifting at "the bottom" that much worse. 

1) You have a boy (girl) in scouts.

2) You are expected to help out.  It is "volunteer...or else!" arm-twist

3) You are required to take training. Which is deemed mediocre at best.

4) The quality of the program is totally dependent on you, and you will be held accountable through guilt.

6) Don't expect any support from the "higher ups", they are money-hungry liars at best.

And then everyone stands around, scratching their heads, wondering why things are falling apart......  

For me, it's a bit difficult to get fired up about getting through #2

But isn't the issue focused on a moral issue?  The comment was a poke at the word "drug".  We have comments concerning: marijuana stores, tobacco stores,  liquor stores, sexual content establishments, etc. indicating some sort of moral outrage at the term medical marijuana,  Yet Girl Scouts sell outside the local convenience store where they are selling tobacco and liquor by some pretty fine looking clerks, and we don't bat an eye.  If one is going to play the game, they need to be consistent with the rules. "Yes, but..." marijuana is illegal!!!"  And as a history teacher I know that at one point so was alcohol.  I also know how well that worked out.

2 hours ago, Pale Horse said:

Like I said, your reasons are your own, so fair enough.  Most families don't feel that scouting is as big a part of their lives as my family does, and I'm fine with that.  I still find it incredulous that because you don't share an interest in something, you choose not to help make it better or at the very least feign interest.  1*

Everything you're saying here and in your subsequent posts all deal with the direct "boy-facing" volunteer opportunities.  There are plenty of ways you and other parents can help besides teaching a class or giving a lecture.  By your own admission your family does plenty of other great activities, many of them outdoors.  Have you considered offering to help set up an outing to these areas?   2*

You say that the den and packs are running just fine without your help. While this may be true, I find it hard to believe that any pack would turn down additional help; especially a volunteer with knowledge of plant identification and other outdoor skills.  At every single roundtable or Scouting University, the most attended topics always center on how to get more parents involved.  Maybe your pack is the exception, though I doubt it.  3*

 

1* This is true, but if I'm not interested, why does it befall me to have to improve someone else's program?  BSA offers training for those that have an interest in the program as you and your family have.  Take the training and then the quality of the program will greatly improve.  The minimum of 4 years of training provides the basis for entry level professional teaching.  Then continuing education is required to keep the job.  That's a major time commitment that is added on to the already busy teaching schedule plus outside assignment grading, etc.  The way it appears on this forum, training is tantamount to strong arm-twisting if not flat out requirement with the pack's own existence being held hostage until it is.  I have no interest in "running" the BSA's program, nor the interest to be trained to do so.  I have had Youth Protection Training through my job as one who works with kids on a daily basis.  Yet I need to put in more time to do it "correctly" with the scouts?  I find reinventing the wheel is a waste of time.  As for feigning interest?  Isn't that a polite way of suggesting I lie about it?

2*  As I said, my wife and I do get involved in areas of interest and expertise for which we are experienced.  So why should I set up a program that is already set up by others?  The Conservancy has it's classes for school groups, church groups, adult interest groups and if asked they would probably set up classes for the scouts, and we volunteer to teach.  The state park does the same thing, as well the local historical society and other such programs.  I have an interest in teaching with the skills I have, but whether it be my volunteering or professional teaching, someone else with a lot more expertise sets these things up to begin with.  I create a test for the students, and email a copy of it to the school office letting them now how many copies I need.  Then by magic the tests are all printed out and in my mail slot.  I know how to run a copier, but there are people there that are trained, more proficient and are on paid time to do it.  I haven't the time to take away their employment time.

3*  As far as my son is concerned, the pack is running just fine.  As far as I know, I have no idea. 

I'm not trying to be a hard-nose about any of this, but from my perspective on this whole thing, it comes as friendly observations from the "outside" side of the program.  If this viewpoint is not welcome, I can find other ways to fill my busy schedule.  And if one were to sit and think about it for 5 seconds, my participation on this forum IS a way of being involved....   Like the semi-annual teacher reviews, when the evaluator sits in the back of the classroom and observes your teaching for a while.  They see things that no one else in the room sees, both with the teacher, the students, the lesson and the interaction going on.  Some teachers "fear" this process, I like it because it helps me improve in my profession.  Everyone is different.

Oh, my!  I just saw a Girl Scout selling cookies outside a DRUG store!  They have federally controlled substances in there!  Just like medical marijuana.  What's the world coming to???

Maybe it's a bit like the Golden Rule.  You send out a scathing email and you get scathing silence in return. 

This should hold the boys and all their gear.

Oh, by the way, as I said my wife's a trained teacher and every opportunity she gets she volunteers to do nature studies at the local conservancy and state park.  Where does she get the time?  She doesn't, it's part of our home-schooling for our children.  What can I say, teaching is not her interest, it's her passion.

We have all been given 24 hours each day.  How we divide that up is up to the individual.  My interests and priorities are not the same as anyone else's.  If they have an interest and wish to volunteer for Boy Scouts, that's great.  If they have an interest and wish to volunteer for some other organization, that's great, too.  Everyone out there needs volunteers.  But then again, not everyone is interested in the same things.  I would prefer all those who volunteer for something have an interest in it.  Being coerced doesn't make anyone a good volunteer candidate.

I once had a pastor that told the education committee not to ask school teachers to teach Sunday School.  If they volunteered, fine, but don't ask just because they are teachers.  They teach every day, give them a day of rest on Sunday.  Same for me spending everyday in class with kids.  Maybe I would like to spend some volunteer time with people my own age for a change.

Or you can just skip the coffee/wine bar and go home to be with the other kids that need your attention as well.

26 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Yes make it engaging and hands-on.  For example,  my den built a  full-size historical reproduction (ductwork) of a Congreve rocket (British). It was 10ft long. 

https://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/rockets-inspired-francis-scott-key-180952399/

Bear Adventure: Paws for Action (Duty to Country)

Complete Requirement 1 and two others from Requirements 2-4.

1. Learn about our nation’s flag. Display it at home for one month. Say the Pledge of Allegiance and learn its meaning.
2. Do at least one of the following.

   A. Find out about two famous Americans. Share what you learned.

   B. Find out where places of historical interest are located in or near your community, town, or city. Go and visit one of them with your family or den.

My son is well qualified to do that.  We've talked about the Flag Code, the flag flies outside our home all the time, and he knows the Pledge and a bit about what it means.

He's been to Springfield, ILL and visited Lincoln's tomb, been to Mt. Vernon, camped in national parks (Roosevelt), been to Boston, MA, Washington DC, etc. and sharing what he know?  Just ask him.

The local library has done historical tours of the local area and we've visited just about everything there is possible within an hour's drive.

So.... where do I fit in here?  It's his program, let him do it.  Never having been exposed to classroom lecture style of teaching except at Sunday School, I think he's better qualified than I am to share with the other boys in the den.  I do the lecture thing, both at school and at church.  He'd do a better job than me.

1 hour ago, Tampa Turtle said:

When I was a cub leader I remember it was hard work prepping for many meetings. I knew we had some single parents with multiple kids and limited time. All I asked was everybody to do something...to put some skin in the game. Maybe they brought snacks for one meeting, or they made some phone calls to set up a field trip, or led one activity for a portion of one meeting, or knew somebody who knew somebody for a good show and tell at a den meeting. Some could do more than others but everyone should do something. What I think what some scouters get frustrated by are the folks who blow by the den meeting in some expensive car, are heavily involved in their social thing (around here it is some social climbing Gasparilla crewe that demands a lot of time and money), and never return any communications if we leaders had a question. I had a few parents that seemed to feel either (1) BSA somehow payed me or (2) I was a real dope and if I was willing to be their baby sitter by all means they would take advantage of it --in other words I was "the hired help". I had more than one parent who used the den meeting time for extra-martial hooking up time but you find that out later after things have blown up.

Those parents were frustrating because they often seemed to ignore their boys and I would feel I really had a duty to work with them. 

And there are some parents who just seem clueless that things just magically happen.

"All I asked was everybody to do something...to put some skin in the game."  And as a youth participant he does.  I did not sign up to be part of the program, but my son's interest does endorse him as having "skin in the game."

I can also assure you that on a teacher's salary, we don't have an expensive car.    And in the interest of our son, we do answer all questions pertaining to his scout activity.  We don't need to do things for "the den".  As part of his home-schooling, he has a ready audience for any presentations he may make on the various nature and historical opportunities he has with his family.   I hear all the time on this forum, the boys should be running the show and my son is well on his way to figuring out what that means.    As a qualified K-12 teacher, my expertise is HS history,  Does anyone really want me to put on a presentation for 3-4th graders?  Not likely.  Do they want my son to bring in shells from the beaches, special plants and old airplanes he's taken pictures of?  After all, it's his interest and his program.  I don't make a very good helicopter parent nor do I want to participate in the hassle of those who are.

1 hour ago, Pale Horse said:

Ignoring the fact that you got awfully defensive pretty quickly, for the sake of discussion why do you and your wife choose not to volunteer?  

I understand it's your choice, but curious as to why.  The scouting experience, especially at the Pack level, is entirely volunteer driven and reliant on parents.

I'll take this as a sincere question.  Aside from a full time job and full time stay-at-home mothering, we are very busy with our children.  With three, they all have their own interests that need to be encouraged and supported as parents.  Our son happens to be interested in Cub Scouts because we are an active outdoor type of family.  Homeschooling i the areas of science and history take my summer vacation time to the limit where we do camping, fishing, nature hikes, plant identification, swimming conservation, etc. in the setting other than a traditional classroom.  Museums, historical places, and such fill up our history "lessons" with on-site learning from the docents.  With that in mind, we use the programs to enhance their home-schooling.  Socially, our children have church, youth programs (that they are interested in), independent educational programs, (nature conservancies, etc.) that they are meeting other people and interacting with them.

As far as us volunteering? Would it be suffice to say that if do not have an interest our children do, why should we volunteer?  We have OUR interests to pursue as well and volunteer elsewhere.  As my father used to say, We "do our own thing."  We have our interests and they have theirs and as a family we work out the details.

At our Pack level, my son has not been "short changed" in anyway because we as parents don't volunteer.  His den leaders don't ever comment that our lack of involvement has stiffed his getting out of the program what it has to offer.  If he has a question that we as parents need to address we do so, but that is very rare.  He seems to enjoy what he's doing and we get no complaints from the program leaders.  Does his involvement affect our family?  In many ways, our daughters have fun sewing onto his shirt whatever awards he might get.  If there's a family invite to the annual banquet, we as a family attend to support his involvement.

With the discussion on this forum tending to be rather negative towards the program, fortunately our son has not felt any impact with it.  I got on the forum when he started and only recently began to post.    With home-schooling on the rise in America and everything else in the youth world tending a downward spiral, it begs the question why?  I left out video games and cell phones as the only exception that is growing at an astounding rate.    As a teacher in a public school, I hear the comments from the schools and from forums such as this and constantly wonder why I want to jump into the fray.  Thus in the interest of my family and my responsibility towards it, I don't.

I guess honesty doesn't count for much here.  End discussion on my part.

3 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

The BabySitters of America phenomenon existed long before Family Scouting. 

And one wonders why non-involved parents and parents in general aren't really backing the BSA?  My son attends his Cub activities because he wants to be there, not because we need a babysitter.  I am a professional teacher, my wife is a stay-at-home professionally trained teacher that doesn't teach, so we don't need babysitting services.  With 3 home schooled children we have our plates full the way it is.  I resent anyone that derides our family's choice to enroll their child in the program just for babysitting services.  I am sure there are others out there that fall into such circumstances that have children in the Boy Scout program.  Single moms with other children who enroll their sons is the classic example of people too busy to run someone else's program for them.  I am sure they would prefer to have their child stay home from such programs because it is easier to keep them home than drag them to every event under the sun so that they can get "free" babysitting services.  The Boy Scouts is a rather expensive proposition when finances are tight.  Stay at home and watch TV is cheaper, a lot cheaper.

Surely these "humorous", but negative comments, have their place, but aired in public. especially coming from the forum moderators?  My son will stay in the program for as long as he enjoys it and gets the social interaction with others that is important to him.  It's not necessary to deride us parents who are not interested in the program, but have kids who are.

It is illegal to harm other people you don't happen to get along with, but with just a few words of gossip to a naive ear it can utterly destroy marriages, families and a person's ability to earn a living.

With society every day buying into the "right" of not being offended, this weapon of words is an extremely lethal weapon  No one out there is safe because you'll never see it coming.

And this is the trend you will see in the future.  That is why the girls will take over leadership with their focused attention to detail and the boys will let them because it's easier to follow and enjoy the fun of no responsibility.  This will extend well into the high school years.  Unless it is segregated, such as sport activities, the girls seem to do better at running the other school clubs and activities.  I'm sure with the recent media focus, this will occur in Boy Scouts as well.  In 4-H the gals excel in the domestic areas, but hold their own  just as well raising a championship pig.

It would seem that our culture's past time  is more interested in tearing things down rather than building it up.  It takes a lot less energy.

It's always more effective to deal with such issues in the court of public opinion.  It destroys reputations without ever getting to court even if the statutes of limitation have long expired.  We are supposed to be a country run by laws, but Salem Witch Hunts still exist along with kangaroo courts to appease the masses.  If that bothers you, just see how the process works.  The damage is done whether the courts find no evidence whatsoever.  This is how we do business today.  It's great fodder for the social media and the press have a hay day with it.  Trial by fire and trial by combat, now we have trial by social media.  Technology may be advancing at a rapid pace, but human nature and it's thirst for entertainment remains pretty much the same.

One of the gentlemen in the pack has a silver BSA bugle in mint condition.  He changed the mouthpiece as mentioned above.

There's a lot of societal reasons why the Baby Boomer generation frequently comment as having grown up in the Golden Age of America.  My father said it many times.  The waning years of the 20th Century were not often viewed as "great".  The 21st Century has not really "taken off" in many areas other than maybe technology.

In many of these headline cases we have plenty of accusations and yet very little evidence.  A female's word against a male's.  Sorry, buddy, but female trumps your defense.  The accusation is often plenty enough to destroy a person's reputation, so no evidence is necessary.

These spreadsheets seem to be an overwhelming, complicated, overkill. 

How much did we take in?  Total of fundraisers and other sources of revenue.

How much did we spend? Total of vendor expenses, reimbursements, and activity costs.

A detailed accounting of those issues should suffice.

Income Tab -

Left row title Fundraisers, columns of each project to enter in the amount

Left row title Other Income, columns of income sources

Total at the bottom: total income

Expense Tab-

 Left row activities, column of amounts such as travel expense, food expense, registrations, etc.

Total at the bottom: total expenses

Report Tab-

Beginning balance from previous report

Plus Income from Income Tab

Minus Expense from Expense Tab

Ending balance for the report

The detail collected from this system should be able to quite accurately be the foundation for the next budget.

3 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

What dynamic?  I understand the concern of false accusations but I haven’t see waves of men fired unjustifiedly.  I have seen bad men finally loosing their jobs and  freedom after years of ignoring their previous accusers.  

And what percentage of men AND WOMEN are falsely accused that are deemed guilty until proven innocent.  As a history teacher, I recall somewhere that our Founding Fathers rejected the British notion that one is guilty until proven innocent, and if but one is truly innocent, the punishment is the loss of a life in a variety of different areas, their reputation, their ability to earn a living and a scarlet letter embossed on their life, kind of like a long and painful capital punishment.  I have no problem with genuine accusations and proof of guilt and subsequent punishment, equal to the crime.  But for the innocent?  Where's the justice?  The fear of guilty until proven innocent is what motivates a majority of those in many professions and volunteer activities.  The reason I don't take on a role in the BSA is because I get exposed to enough of this problem in everyday life, and I'm sure as a teacher I'm not the only one, the clergy, the medical professions, counseling, etc. all face the same issue.

1 hour ago, David CO said:

I don't think anyone knows. They don't keep statistics on this.

I have seen several teachers dismissed unjustly. I have also seen many teachers exonerated. Regardless of the result, all false accusations have a chilling effect on the teaching/coaching staff.

It also has an affect on hiring. More than half of the Catholic schools in my diocese have no male teachers on staff. They have 20 or more teachers, but not 1 man. The pastors and principals don't want to have to deal with the all of the trouble caused by false accusations. It is much easier to just hire an all female teaching staff.

I have had several false accusations made against me. I'm pretty careful, so I was able to prove my innocence in each case. Even so, it is not a fun experience.

Isn't this the conclusion certain groups in our society wish?  All females as dominant?  It may be an easy solution to the perceived problem, but is it just?  Not much equality to swing the pendulum all the way over to the other end of the arc.