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AltadenaCraig

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Posts posted by AltadenaCraig

  1. One of the problems in marketing scouting is that many of our scouters insist that scouting should be a boys favorite activity, and won't settle for it playing second fiddle on a boys list of activities. I think this is a mistake.

     

    A good marketing campaign should show boys doing some other fun activity or sport,  and then show them changing into a scout uniform and going to a scout meeting.  The message should be, "You can do scouting, too."

     

    I tell our Scouts who play varsity sports "seasonal sports are sprints ... Scouting is a marathon."  I'm happy for them to focus on their sports - even those with multiple sports - so long as Scouting gets them when they're off-season.

     

    Club or year-round sports are a challenge; but that can be surmounted as well with a little foresight.

  2. I agree with you to the extent that that peer to peer stuff, taking responsibility etc is great for personal development and should certainly be what scouts are doing.

     

    What I'm not convinced by is whether plugging that is what gets them through the door in the first place. From a marketing perspective I think the emphasis on outdoor adventure is where to begin, and introduce them to the patrol method when they get through the door.

     

    Think of it as like reading. It's a rare 11 year old that reads Dickens, Austen or Steinbeck. Most are perfectly capable but you need to get them into the library first with a healthy dose of Harry Potter!

     

    ... But marketing is about selling a vision, not the intricacies of the process. If you ask the average parent what patrol method is, they won't have an answer. If you ask them the benefits of making independent decisions while spending a weekend in the woods, they will ponder for a moment their child standing near a tent fishing in the trickling stream.

     

    Thanks, fellows.  I suspect we're all in "violent agreement; nevertheless, your points are touching on a sore spot with me ... and one where admittedly I have a bit of an agenda.

     

    In my experience selling the "exciting adventures" risks inviting a parental "smorgasbord" mentality where they get the idea Scouting is just the pre-college equivalent of the student activities center.  If the item on the calendar doesn't have the "spark" forget about participation.  This leads to dysfunctions which inhibit the benefits of the Patrol Method.

     

    First, planning gravitates to adult "takeover" of the calendar, as the "exciting activities" demand more and complex executive and planning functions beyond the capabilities of Scouts.  The "trickling stream" overnighter envisioned by Eagledad, absolutely required for scout-to-scout training of trail-to-first-class skills, gets crowded-out for more whitewater-rafting-like trips.

     

    Second, the "cardboard box" adventures never materialize.  How many times have we given a child a gift, only to be amazed when the kid spends more time playing with the box it came in?  Scouts can plan effectively and execute brilliantly at the "cardboard box" level, where the Patrol Method thrives.

     

    I agree, selling the Patrol Method is a heavy lift.  Much heavier than Eagledad's "trickling stream" - which by his own admission requires some parental pondering.  Nevertheless, I truly believe Twenge is onto something that can be addressed directly by the Patrol Method.  I hope the BSA can find a marketing partner to touch on this subtle but critical point.

     

    Rant over, carry on.

  3. Excuse me, but I don't consider take reductions in promiscuity, drunkenness, and wasted money on vehicles and insurance they can barely afford -- to be signs of a flawed developmental pathway.

     

    Unmentioned is an increase in health-professional, and advance placement studies, and service-earning. So, we have fewer kids bagging groceries for pin-money and more volunteering with EMT, hospital, starting their own online businesses, or junior apprenticing with trades. Where did they learn how to do this? That inter-web thingy put "ideas" in their head.

     

    Not gonna lie - a lot of my friends got derailed by 70's culture - thinking they could always dig coal or roll steel or something to pay for their beer and weed. Decades of life wasted (their words, not mine). If more kids these days are thumbing their noses at that kind of culture, there's hope for this country.

     

    qwaze: here's a more thorough excerpt from her book:  https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/has-the-smartphone-destroyed-a-generation/534198/

     

    I share Eagledad's opinion that Scouting is an antidote to Twenge's thesis (and should be vigorously Marketed as such).  However my prescription differs somewhat in that what's needed is a healthy dose of the Patrol Method.

     

    Agreed that the Patrol Method should occur primarily outdoors - though occasionally indoors for some Service Projects - but my point is that Twenge's argument is that peer-to-peer interactive social skills are at extreme risk.  Plucking boys out of their computer-coma's and plopping them in the Outdoors is definitely a step in the right direction; however the cure (in my mind) is the interaction demanded by the Patrol Method.

    • Upvote 1
  4. Not real thrilled with the ceremonies and Native American mimicry

     

    I agree to a point but I don't have any alternatives that I think would capture kids' imagination.

     

    We've got a fellow in our Lodge that really does a good job of helping our Arrowmen clean-up their ceremonies ensemble.  I had no idea of the history behind the attire - and this guy's a natural storyteller, so it really interests the scouts (and keeps the cringe-worthy items (plastic tomahawks, etc.) away from our efforts.

     

    He uses "Warriors of the Plains - Native American Regalia & Crafts" as a guide (found at Crazy Crow trading post - I have no financial interest so this is a genuine reference).  It contains several clever and effective items of regalia and crafts - ranging from simple to complex, that are inexpensive but respectful.

     

     

    Not real thrilled with the ceremonies and Native American mimicry - this is a debate that will rage on both Pro and Con. I have seen members of various tribal nations on both sides of the argument. Personally, in recent years at least, I have not seen a display that was intentionally disrespectful. A small portion of my heritage is Cherokee and Chickasaw, I will occasionally cringe at certain things I see, but I would rather help them learn about what they were mistaken about than restrict them. Events like Wachipi (recently at Philmont) are held to educate Arrowmen about Native American culture and how to maintain OA traditions and to be respectful.

     

    Bingo.  Nothing intentionally disrespectful - I certainly wouldn't know - but thankfully our guy, like you, is on the case.  As you say, the key is to "help them learn".

  5. Just create a new program for coeds and leave the Boy Scout Program alone.  This entire discussion is utterly silly.

     

    Utterly silly; so stipulated.  Now that we're agreed, will the "new program for coeds" you advocate award "Eagle Scout" to girls?

     

    If not, then this entire discussion isn't so silly.

  6. I don't see any reference to the Chartered Organization Representative in this discussion.  It might be easier and more productive to help guide and train your COR.  Here's a link to the COR guidebook (it's rather short and easy reading):  http://scoutingwire.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Chartered-Organization-Representative-Guidebook.pdf

     

    To be sure, working with your COR to attract and train your leaders is right in line with the COR's responsibility.  Moreover, developing a good relationship with the COR will undoubtedly give you leverage with the Scoutmaster.  Together, you and the COR can work with the SM to either get him on-board or work out a transition come next re-chartering time.  Bottom line:  it's the COR's responsibility to:

     

    approve all adult leaders and committee members, or he or she may delegate this task. This approval occurs once at the time of initial recruitment; again each year at the time of charter renewal; and whenever adult leaders change registered positions, such as from committee member to den leader (p.6)

     

    Together, you, the SM, and the COR form the "Key 3" of the unit's leadership.  If you and the COR are aligned on goals and objectives, you'll have a much easier time getting the SM to come along.  Let the COR know your feelings and intentions should things remain unchanged.  If your COR has any intention of promoting a sustainable program, he/she will get the hint.  Good luck! -

    - Craig

  7. Back in the day (here he goes), Boy Scouts was the only game in town where I could be with friends and AWAY from Mom, DAD, and annoying adults. There was some adult association but not the domination of today and definitely not the counter-productive Family Scouting. Leadership followed naturally and to a much lesser extent advancement.

    THIS.

     

    I believe the problem lies in BSA's loss of focus on its primary mission: Character development through application of the Patrol Method. Outdoors, primarily, but also via service to others (which may or may not be outdoors). But ALWAYS character development through the Patrol Method.

     

    I'm certainly proud of my Eagle Scout son's accomplishment, but I'm also proud of his former Patrol-mate and fellow Philmont trek-mate, who never made it past 1st Class, but who wore his uniform - by then 2 sizes too a small - proudly to my son's Eagle ceremony.

     

    I don't see how a separate all-girl Patrol, doing their own thing, would have diminished this. On the other hand, I don't see how "Family Scouting" supports Character Development. And it most certainly would subvert the Patrol Method. To be sure, "Family Scouting" scares the daylights out of me.

    • Upvote 2
  8. Outstanding thread.  I'm really looking forward to everyone's thoughts as well as contributing my own $.02 worth.  Unfortunately I'm on the West Coast, where it's a little before 9am, and for some reason my client expects me to WORK rather than do Scouting ... ya just can't satisfy some people.

     

    (Meantime I'll keep a screen open and lurk...)

  9. Well, the past two decisions about membership have NOT increased their bottom line. Membership is down, product sales are down, FOS is down (big) and corporate donations have not recovered (as many speculated they would). Not sure why anyone thinks going coed will be any different.

     

    Valid points, Col.  Stunning, in fact.  Somehow I had the impression that Mr. Stephenson had announced things were on the upswing.  Alas, after a cursory Google search ["Boy Scouts", membership, Stephenson] I found several reports and presentations for the past year, but none championing a rebound of membership or funding.  Unless I missed something, I have to accept your assertion.  

     

    I don't suppose you'd concede more time is needed to allow corporate stewardship to fully re-engage?

  10. If it's a membership drive, it's gotta be one that will take decades to yield results.

     

    It's doublespeak, pure and simple.

     

    There's a special interest. You can define it on the participant level (the occasional girl who is one of the boys) or the parental level (the occasional family who claims they would sign up their girls as well as their boys) or the activist level (the occasional action committee who claims without evidence that the membership policy is a pane in some glass ceiling). But it's still a special interest.

     

    Were National to speak plainly, they would say "There are a minority who we and some of our youth leadership feel deeply about. We think we know how to accommodate them. It's a huge gambit, but will you support us in trying?"

     

    'Rat, besides your daughter (who posted a topic once or twice, sounds like an outstanding scout), how many other girls in your circle are chomping at the bit for this sorta thing?

     

    I disagree.  As I have said before, I think this is entirely about increasing membership.  I don't think it is because National has any particular desire to admit girls, other than for the expected impact on membership. And I don't think National believes it "will take decades to yield results."  Whether they are correct or not is a different discussion, and we won't know the answer to that until after they do it, if they do it.

     

     

    Perhaps it's neither about empowering girls nor about increasing membership; perhaps it's simply about money.  Does the BSA foresee additional coffers becoming available as it embraces inclusiveness?

  11. Is there anything to stop a venturing crew arbitrarily adopting the scout program, operating as patrols, following the training, even awarding ranks and badges on an unofficial basis?

     

    That road leads to anything being possible (awarding Eagle to someone over 18yrs old, etc.).  Girls (or their advocates) aren't going to stop until they can be officially recognized as Eagle Scouts (on college applications, for example).  Consequently I don't see Venturing as the solution to any of this.

     

    An aside: While I'm not surprised that this issue is getting a lot of attention, I have to admit I never saw the BSA's "making scouting accessible" rationale coming.  On one had I'm impressed (BSA agreeing to the girl advocate's objectives not only without having to accede to their overall point, but instead appear to be championing "family values"), on the other hand wrapping a legitimate and critical issue as "we're doing it for families!" appears cynical and hiding from the real discussion.

     

    C'mon, Dallas, a Scout is Brave.

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  12. So if BSA goes co-ed, it becomes generically the same dynamics of any other co-ed group.    To answer your other post by blw2 it does make a difference to me whether or not the program is all-boy or co-ed.  I guess I wouldn't be half upset as I could be, Venturing was co-ed and I had a crew for 13 years.  But with Cub and Boy, the program has not just going co-ed, it's just a half step to Family Scouting and I work just with youth.  Helicopter parents officially in the program don't really appeal to me at all.

     

    By the way, boys really won't mature and build character with the parents hanging around interfering with their progress to adult independence.

     

    "Co-ed" doesn't ruffle my feathers, as long as they have their own Troop - or at least their own Patrol(s).  I don't see how any of the aims or methods of Scouting are threatened.

     

    "Family Scouting", on the other hand, really gets me irritated.  That's a direct assault on the Patrol Method and, as HashTagScouts points out, above, subverts Leadership Development.

  13. I think Red and Green are simple purpose:  Up means you like or find the post helpful and Down means you dislike or find it non-helpful and "Report" is asking someone to taken to the principal's office.

     

    I follow a couple of other forums, both powered by another provider [simple machines forum - SMF].  The SMF follows the 'facebook' protocol:

    - "Thumbs up" (Like) is the only voting option (no thumbs-down option and no "arrows" of any color)

    - Similar to this forum, each post provides a "Report to Moderator" link (similar to our "Report").  I like the "Report to Moderator" terminology as it's a little clearer to me.

     

    Perhaps I've become brainwashed by facebook and SMF, but as was pointed out by MattR yesterday, facebook (& SMF) allow only "thumbs-up" for good reason.  FWIW, that's my preference, too:  replace the arrows with a "thumbs-up" option and rename "report" as "report to moderator".  My $.02 -

    - Craig

  14. Thanks for the clarification, Sentinel.  Since you have kindly opened the door, I'll add that on most boards I have used I've never been limited to the number of "up-votes" or "likes" I could assign.  I was certainly surprised when I slammed into an apparent daily limit on my upvotes.

     

    I'll risk going too far when i say that I bristle at such restrictions - it smacks of the kind of paternalism that makes me feel like some kind of lesser minion that needs to be micro-managed by a big-brother system.

     

    Free the restriction! ... Free Tibet! ... Free Willy!

     

    Rant over.  Carry on.

    • Upvote 3
  15. Curious, but why didn't you give them a fourth option and ask them if they wanted to remain boys only? Or a fifth option saying girls could join Venturing at 11 but Boy Scouts stayed boys only?

     

    It seems the questions engineer the answer that may have been desired, rather than giving them ALL possibilities and ask them which they truly prefer.

     

    Hi, Col.:  you're quite right that I forced an answer with the way I structured the question.

     

    However, I wasn't getting at "whether" to incorporate girls into the BSA, but rather "how".  I'm assuming that decision is a fait accompli, as girls like Sydney - and their supporters - won't rest until girls are able to wear an Eagle Scout badge.  My expectation is that Dallas sees only upside as current registration numbers suggest the exodus predicted during the earlier contretemps hasn't materialized.  I'm pleased that sst3rd and you have taken the time to reply to my comment - and I respect and admire how those with long scouting coattails have carried the water for all of us through recent dark days - but unless the GSUSA immediately steps-up their program to promote high-adventure and their marketing to bring the Gold Award on more or less equal footing with Eagle Scout, I think we all will be better-off discussing "how" rather than "whether".

     

    In addition to the method behind my madness, I'll offer that the Scouts in my troop aren't wallflowers - and I was certainly surprised that they didn't push-back on the way I structured the question - but none of them even hinted at "no girls".  Additionally I fully expected that any scouts who appeared resigned to the issue would then promote the Separate Charter option.  Again, however, the scouts in my troop appeared to look forward to showing the girls "how Scouting is done" - and they didn't feel they could do that unless they were part of our troop.  They stopped short, though, of including them in their patrol.

     

    BTW, your Venturing option is intriguing; however, my admittedly slight understanding of Venturing tells me Eagle Scout can't be earned without having sometime been a Boy Scout -

    - Craig

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  16. On topic: For all the reasons having been listed, I still want BSA to remain boys only. If it goes co-ed, me and hundreds of volunteers in my area will be gone. That's a fact jack.

    I just returned from a week of backpacking in the Sierras which included several younger (~13-yr-old) scouts. During a layover day we discussed the issue and I posited three "models" of co-ed Scouting: 1) girls sprinkled in all patrols throughout the Troop, call that "full integration"; 2) girls in the Troop but contained in their own patrol(s), call that "girl patrol"; and 3) girls in their own troop, call that "separate charter". I'm curious, sst3rd, if either the "girl patrol" or "separate charter" options would fly with you or the volunteers in your area (as I assume "full integration" would be DOA in your world).

     

    FWIW I was surprised my Scouts were strongly supportive of option #2, girl patrols.

  17. One thing that is important to understand is that 95% of troop membership (give or take) comes from the Packs. If the pack program fails, the rest of scouting fails.

     

    Hi, Eagledad/Barry:

    This may require its own thread, but I'd like to challenge your assertion that "if the pack program fails, the rest of scouting fails".

     

    A recent ScoutmasterCG.com podcast addressed recruiting:  http://scoutmastercg.com/scoutmaster-podcast-342-recruiting-scouts/.  In the episode Clarke Green shares his experience that bridging Webelos correlate less with program retention than does having been asked to join by a current Scout or Scout parent.

     

    I'm not challenging your 95% of troop membership figure; I'm inclined to agree with it.  But it doesn't follow that if the pack program fails, the rest of scouting fails.  It just means that if a feeder pack fails, a greater effort to "ask" prospects will be required of Scouts and their parents.

     

    To be sure, my own experience as Webelos Den Leader, then Cubmaster, then ASM, and now Scoutmaster is that the more successful a Pack is, the greater the "unlearning" required of their bridging Webelos and their parents when joining a troop that aspires to being Scout-lead.  I've found it much easier to assimilate boys with no Pack history than those who have become used to a "show" featuring parents who do all the work.  Frequently those Webelos and their families are better off bridging to a "Webelos III"-model troop --

    -- Craig

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  18. Love all the tips.  Good stuff for Scoutmaster's Minute.  Here's one I've used (all too recently, unfortunately) from Clarke Green at scoutmastercg.com   http://scoutmastercg.com/talking-with-scouts-about-tragic-events/, in addition to his own comments, his post includes this timeless quote from Fred Rogers (of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood):

     

    "When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, “Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.†To this day, especially in times of disaster, I remember my mother’s words and I am always comforted by realizing that there are still so many helpers – so many caring people in this world." - Fred Rogers

  19. BSA discourages use of unofficial merit badge worksheets

    https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/01/13/merit-badge-worksheets/

     

     

    Thanks, CNYScouter; I hadn't seen these official BSA comments until your post.

     

    Soapbox time:  IMHO the worksheet project is one of the most infamous examples of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".  Soon after following my son from his cub scout pack into his troop, I felt like I'd discovered a gold mine when I found the cache of online worksheets.  Everything in one place and up-to-date, formatted consistently across all worksheets - wonderful!  Clearly a labor of love, I felt the author of the worksheets was a hero.

     

    But over the years as I've seen them in practice, I've grown to despise the things.  I've seen too many merit badge "counselors" simply rely on submission of the worksheets rather than spend quality time with the scouts.  To be sure, the scouting program that I remembered - the one that offered a welcome respite from school that nevertheless provided its own effective, but completely different, educational experience - had now become an exact replication of school: onerous "paperwork", dry content, mandated by disengaged adults.  I hate the things, now, and discourage their use among our troop's merit badge counselors.  I'm pleased to see the official BSA position against them and will relay the link to our counselors as a reminder.

     

    I do have a beef with verbiage in the link's official reply: that the problem with the worksheets is that they "emphasize speed over education"; they "can prevent struggling with requirements, when it is the struggle that can lead to retention of lessons learned"; and they are "a shortcut.".  Holy cow, I didn't know the merit badge program was intended to be so grueling!  Rather I think the BSA's position would be more effective simply emphasizing the merit badge program as a fun way to get exposure to a subject and learn more about it from a passionate adult.

     

    Rant over.  Carry on.

    • Upvote 4
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