AltadenaCraig

1 hour ago, MikeS72 said:

A quick google search brought this camporee guide:

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor Program/pdf/430-001.pdf

Very impressive, @MikeS72; thanks!  I've googled dozens of Camporee Guides, but they've all been District- or Council-produced documents and only underscore the disparity among programs.  Your link is to an apparently official BSA guide - dated 2009 so relatively recent. For me the most valuable blurb is "The camporee involves the type of equipment that can be carried in a pack by [scouts] and can be set up entirely by [scouts], allowing them to be completely self-sufficient for a self-reliant experience over a period of two or three days."

Our district's Camporees have featured nothing like that, so this guide is valuable on that basis, alone.  I'm less affected, however, with the document's program details - particularly types of competition and methods of scoring - on which the document only says "Camporee programs may include contests and demonstrations of outdoor Scouting skills as well as campfires, games, and field events."  For that I'll keep trying, but this is very helpful.  Thanks again.

1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

the powdered pb is nasty IMO. 

Agreed.  My troop prefers the single-serve PB cups (Jif or Skippy).

I'll risk hijacking this "breakfast" thread by noting the single-serve PB cups, along with restaurant-type jellies and a tortilla (or the mini-rolls of ritz crackers) make for great PBJ lunch.

Safety tip:  When taking PB cups to altitude, be sure to pack them in a ziplock and consider puncturing the lids with a pin-prick.  We didn't and found a mess upon arriving to basecamp in the Sierras.

24 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

The problem is the culture. ... The culture would build and reinforce the concepts through District activities like Camporee, Weboree, Cub Camps and so forth. 

I think we can start with some guidance & standards.

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

...My blame starts with National.

I don't disagree and several previous posts in this thread underscore your point.  Some Camporees (such as our District's) are 100% adult-run.  Appears @cocomax is as well:

19 hours ago, cocomax said:

The camporee was set up so that the adults running the events ...

While @qwazse recalls 100% scout-lead:

18 hours ago, qwazse said:

My favorite camporees were run by JASMs. Adults might help set up etc ... but the youth allocated points, etc ...

Not to mention @Jameson76 point that points for subjective criteria such as "scout spirit" or enthusiasm and such are inviting trouble.

Bottom Line:  Has anyone seen "Best Practices" for Camporees published by any Area, or National?  Seems like all of us on this thread, including me, are winging it. 

I wonder if any Districts are holding separate boys' and girls' Camporees?  Some Districts won't yet have critical mass of girl patrols, I get that, but for those Districts that do have ample girl patrols has anyone heard of separate Camporees?

Venturing has been coed for years (and btw if shenanigans are the worry such would occur in Venturing, not in Scouts BSA, so that's not the issue), but I gather in Scouts BSA the thinking is the boys need their scouting experience and the girls need theirs.  Consequently Scouts BSA isn't organized like Little League - with girls & boys intermingled - but rather like recreational soccer, where identical games are run on side-by-side fields with only boys v boys or girls v girls games.  So should the goal eventually be separate Camporees?  Such would not only eliminate the Camporee bias, but would help ensure the boys get their scouting experience and the girls get theirs.

1 hour ago, cocomax said:

I saw adults step in and help when they should not have been, but the youth do not have much power to stop that nonsense. 

Yeah, this nonsense was called-out in our District Comm meetings after last year's Camporee.  We (adults) are taking steps at this year's Camporee in two weeks to separate adults who are "just trailing" and get them well away from the patrols in general and the competitions in particular.  We'll see.

4 hours ago, qwazse said:

I'd like to see the fundraiser that your SPL would pull off to get your QM that extra $15million suit!

P.S. - Some folks in town are working on the next gen suit. It really is a nationwide endeavor.

According to the "Interplanetary Chief Astronaut", in 1961 such a suit cost $18,000.  But then it did have "two pair of pants".

[sketch below from "The Ed Sullivan Show", portions of which featured in "The Right Stuff", book & movie]

3 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

Wal Mart around here has it near the baby food.

Ooooh, thanks SO much for reminding me.  HUGE SAFETY TIP:  Nestle unfortunately packages the Nido whole milk so it's nearly identical to their baby-powder.  DON'T CONFUSE THE TWO !!

Nice tip about the Knorr sides, @mrkstvns ; thanks.  Yes, our troop has hit on the backpacker's shepherd's pie as well.  Our scouts call it "cow-in-the-cloud".

The one tip I'll pass-on is this:  "Nido" whole-milk powder.  You can typically find a large canister of the stuff at Smart-&-Final, which is just fine as you'll use it again and again.  Unfortunately the usual-suspect grocery stores (Ralphs, Vons) carry only the non-fat powdered milk, which is unusable for our purposes.  But the Nido whole-milk powder is perfect for adding to morning Oatmeal or to evening dessert (just-add-milk pudding).  For those of you who like milk with your morning coffee, this stuff'll do ya, too.

So this past weekend both of our troops (boys & girls) held their March overnighter at a nearby US Forest Service campground.  The two SPL's asked my cohort SM & me for advice on where to emplace the patrols of both troops.  Seeing an opportunity to work-in some European history and Norse mythology - as well as avoid the awkward "male patrols" & "female patrols" monikers - I suggested they might "place the Paladin patrols in these campsites and the Valkyrie patrols in those campsites".

After some quick explanation, the boys' SPL seemed agreeable with the comparison to Charlemagne's warriors and the girls' SPL approved of the association with the selectors of who may die valiantly in battle in anticipation of Valhalla.  Perfect.

Saturday night they ran a combined closing campfire, with the Paladin patrols on one side and Valkyrie patrols on the other.  During the pre-ceremony banter, one young lady struck a decisive pose, pointed to several individual boys, and said:  "Lessee, now.  YOU may die ... and YOU may die ... and YOU may die ..."

Very interesting topic.  Thank you @shortridge .  My $.02:

Biggest problem with youth skills instruction.  For me, it's First Class Nature; specifically 5a):

• 5a.  Identify or show evidence of at least 10 kinds of native plants found in your local area or campsite location

I interpret "kinds" as "species" within the plant kingdom.  I'm terrible at it.  I find guidebooks difficult.  What I need/want to do is get a local botanist to really train a few of us adults in the field so that we can in turn train our senior scouts.  After that it's purely monitoring/mentoring as the scouts can take it from there.  I'm comfortable monitoring/mentoring all other First Class skills (Navigation, Knots, First Aid, etc.), but First Class Nature 5a is really tough for me.

Biggest problem with adult leader training.  For me - and I personally believe on this issue Scouting's membership will either turn around or continue to slide - it is:

• Supporting the Patrol Method

I'm exasperated at adults who couldn't care less about promoting the outdoor small-group dynamics and who think we're failing if we're not focused on reincarnating individual "Daniel Boones".  Similarly for other adults the only metric on which they're concerned is counting each scout's merit badges and rank advancements.  Even after exhaustive guidance, these adults remain completely oblivious to Baden-Powell's admonition: "The patrol system is not one method in which Scouting for boys can be carried on. It is the only method."

I'm enjoying reading the other scouters' thoughts on this thread.

Here's a useful and to-the-point video on the "Turk's Head Woggle":  

1 hour ago, HelpfulTracks said:

Perhaps I misunderstood the OP, I thought he meant his son was cooking for 3 adults rather than his own patrol. 

No, no, I think you read it correctly.  I'm being loose on the definition of "his own patrol".  While some troops I've seen are rather strict in their construction of patrols (duration, age-group, etc.), others I've seen are so loose as to cobble them together almost ad-hoc for every outing.  My own troop is somewhere in the middle, with established patrols supplemented by temporary "crews" for high-adventure summertime activities.

Accordingly in this instance I imagine the SM cobbling together an ad hoc "patrol", including himself, for the benefit of the scout.  Admittedly mine is a loose interpretation.

On 3/8/2019 at 7:20 PM, qwazse said:

BSA dragged venturing down by a thousand cuts. The worst being last years' youth protection mandates. What group of 14-20 year old co-eds would want to be dependent on the presence of two adults for every meeting and activity? Before that, the distinction between adult and youth participants put an effective wedge between members of a crews with a wide age span. Before that, the jump in registration fees exceeded the average cost of a weekend in the woods on borrowed gear.

For late teens, it is now easier to fulfill the vision of a pinnacle scouting experience of hiking and camping independently with your mates --- without the BSA.

I may be whistling past the graveyard, here, but I'm hopeful the introduction of girls into Scouts BSA will spark a turnaround in Venturing.

As Cub Scouts have sub-segments of Webelos, Tigers, etc., it's always struck me as odd that Boy Scouts (now Scouts BSA) ran from ~5th through ~12th grades without sub-segments of its own.  Even G2SS discourages tent-sharing among scouts > 2-grade-levels apart.  Alas, before girls were able to join as scouts, promoting a follow-on co-ed Venture crew - where late-teen boy scouts, but not the girls, could continue to pursue Eagle - always seemed awkward.  Now, however, I can both visualize a smooth transition as well as foresee a much-needed follow-on program to keep my late-teens engaged.

I just hope it isn't too little, too late.

Oops.  My mistake.  I was going off of here-say and I should know better.  Here's an apparently official GSUSA document that includes shooting sports (p.139).  My apologies:

https://www.girlscouts.org/content/dam/girlscouts-gsusa/forms-and-documents/cookie/Resources/GSUSA_Safety-Activity-Checkpoints_2018.pdf

17 hours ago, qwazse said:

The new scout's comment about GS/USA's potential vs. actuality of outdoor program should be a cautionary tale for us all.

Moreover, her comments were charitable.  GS/USA restricts range activities to archery only.  Shooting of guns is not allowed.

My earlier post, in italics immediately above, was incorrect.  Here's their version of Guide to Safe Scouting:  https://www.girlscouts.org/content/dam/girlscouts-gsusa/forms-and-documents/cookie/Resources/GSUSA_Safety-Activity-Checkpoints_2018.pdf

Ref.  p. 139

2 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

Ultimately the MB Counselor has the final say, not the SM. 

I agree - it's the MB Counselor's call.

2 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

In this case you read the requirements correctly.  Following the requirements as written means your son did not pass.

I take a different view.  For the purposes of this campout, if I read the OP's scenario correctly, the group for which the scout prepared meals WAS his patrol (even if it included adults).

2 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

However, as I said, the final say is the MB Counselors. Is cooking for a group vs a group of youth enough to make a difference? Given the difficulty of getting youth on campouts in your troop, I can understand why the SM wants to count it. He is just trying to help the youth.

Agreed.  Gotta love any SM who's looking to set scouts up for success as opposed to nit-picking requirements in search of technicalities to use as road-blocks.

28 minutes ago, FireStone said:

There's no room for folks to step into new roles in the Troop after Pack life? I'd like to be involved in the troop after my son crosses over. I hope it's not a case of "Thanks, we got it from here."

Of course there is!  Here's my quote (with emphasis):

57 minutes ago, AltadenaCraig said:

Give these parents the "well done" thank-you's and then invite them onto the Troop Committee, but emphasize that activity involvement is the role of the SM/ASM's and the Scoutmaster Corps "will take it from here".

For most parents that will be enough to assuage their need for involvement.  If you feel you can go farther, you can train for the Scoutmaster Corps.

BTW, I'll fix my quote to read "the PLC with support from the Scoutmaster Corps will take it from here."

On 3/4/2019 at 2:15 PM, fred8033 said:

Scouts grow far more for each year they are in Boy Scouts than any year in Cub Scouts.

Agreed.  The question is, why?  Some would argue this is purely due to human development during Jr. High / Middle school.  I say its because quality scout units successfully ween over-indulgent hyper-involved Akela's from their newly minted Scouts.

On 3/4/2019 at 2:15 PM, fred8033 said:

The simple fact is the Cub program is long and repetitive.  Scouts and families burn-out before reaching Boy Scouts ...

I fear we could predict troops hurting with the addition of Lion and Tiger...

I see the same thing, but I draw a wholly different conclusion.  During Webelos, if not before, we should be marketing Scouts BSA as "break time" for Akela's  Give these parents the "well done" thank-you's and then invite them onto the Troop Committee, but emphasize that activity involvement is the role of the SM/ASM's and the PLC, with support from the Scoutmaster Corps, "will take it from here".

Successfully delivering that message may forestall Akela's from abandoning scouting altogether and throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

On 3/4/2019 at 1:14 PM, Jameson76 said:

  Rather than Scout Me In our marketing should be We Go Do Stuff.

Love this idea.

On 3/4/2019 at 1:14 PM, Jameson76 said:

Let the program sell itself at the local level.  Get away from JTE, uniform police, leaders focused on district/council and not youth and laser focus back to Scouting outdoor activities

Agreed, Jameson76.  But how do we "laser-focus" without some kind of metric?  I'm a big supporter of JTE, but I think it needs to measure scout-lead outdoor activities.  Our district is chock-full of adults who are focused on completing "Merit Badge Packets" but who couldn't "Go Do Stuff" to save their lives.

If our girls-in-Scouts-BSA is to be successful.  We HAVE to have metrics that accurately identify and discriminate the Green-Bar-Bill units from the posers.

On 3/4/2019 at 1:14 PM, Jameson76 said:

Adding more girls seeking outdoor adventure may nudge the organization back to it's roots, hopefully. 

From your words to God's eyes.  Amen.

On 2/23/2019 at 10:02 AM, ParkMan said:

I find the 8 methods are largely complimentary and go to building a diverse exerpience for Scouts.  For example, if you focus mostly on advancement - then eventually Scouts get bored.  If you focus mostly on outdoors - the same.  So, I don't think I'd rank them - but instead ask myself - what's the best I can do in each?

Like DuctTape, I too agree with your observation that the methods are largely complimentary.  However I subscribe to the notion there's one common denominator:  The Patrol Method.  Clarke Green over at scoutmastercg.com posits one can reasonably derive the others from this one method, but not necessarily vice versa.  If not the primary method, I would at least consider The Patrol Method the first among equals.  Clarke similarly finds "Character Development" as a common denominator among scouting's Aims.  Here's the link to his podcast where he says it much better than I: https://scoutmastercg.com/scoutmaster-podcast-297-one-aim-one-method/ 

5 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I agree that adults should be feel comfortable in expressing how they feel about habits and behaviors of scouts and adults in the program. Some discussion may be required for their education, but everyone should feel comfortable in opening the discussion.

...

I believe, and taught this in my adult leadership classes, any adult who is not open to suggestions for change does not belong in the scouting program because as the scouts change and mature, so must the adults change and mature just to keep up.

Agreed.  We're all adults (not to mention volunteers & teammates) and should behave as such.

10 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

But I disagree that adults shouldn't consider themselves as students of character change. Who is to say when everyone can't learn something new.

It's one thing to approach adult personal behavior In General as an educational opportunity - of course we should all be students of the scout oath and law (though, alas, I personally require repeated instruction).  It''s another for any of us to appear to call-out the behavior of other adults under the veil of championing those values.  No one appointed any of us Lone Ranger.

21 minutes ago, qwazse said:

As one who let's his tongue slip more than I should ...

Yes! Please remind guys like me that it's wrong in meetings to take advantage of language others don't want to hear or use.

Iron sharpens iron.

Qwazse:  I follow your posts and appreciate them as coming from a good egg.  I expect you'd be the kind of person to take any constructive criticism well.  My guess is that if I heard you say something that really offended me I'd have the confidence to approach you personally and mention my discomfort, knowing that you would appreciate my sharing my feelings.

If her relationship with the potty-mouth is secure, I'd advise Wisconsin Momma to similarly make mention of her feelings one-on-one.  If it's not, then let it go.  We're here for Scouts' character development, not that of Scouters.

WisconsinMomma:

Keep your focus on Scouts, not on adults.

You don't have time for this rabbit-hole, inviting the risk of being seen as a moralizer or a prude, etc.  Of course, if this language is used in earshot of Scouts that's a different matter.  Adult-only committee meetings?  Let it go.

17 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

What you're really looking for is engaging your older Scouts. @Eagledad talks about better in his posts than I ever can. I wrote out multiple paragraphs, and they were basically saying the same thing Eagledad was, just longer and less concise. This paragraph in particular jumped out to me:

On 9/17/2018 at 7:55 AM, Eagledad said:

Three out of five crews fail after the first four years because they didn't have good adults who understand how to build a boy run style program. The programs turned into camping clubs, and even high adventure gets boring. As I said eariler, what keeps older scouts in the program is the challenge of running the program and growing from the challenge. The best programs are the ones where the scouts go home saying to themselves, "I like myself when I'm with the troop, or crew". That kind of feeling comes from achieving above what you thought was capable.

Thanks to all ... I'm really getting a lot out of this thread.

I'm encouraged by my younger patrols - they're exhibiting high enthusiasm for what I'll call "vanilla scouting":  Patrol method in the outdoors.  They're engaged and reasonably attentive at PLC's, they have fun with one another, and the more advanced of my younger scouts exhibit care and concern for the youngest - taking them under their wings and helping them with skills, advancement, etc.  Perfect!

My struggle is with my oldest scouts.  I hate to "write them off", but I'm just there with them.  I've concluded that my predecessor - a truly dedicated scouter and a tireless supporter of mine - unfortunately was also the "world's oldest SPL".  He ran everything ... meetings, campouts, the whole bit.  And charismatically, too.  It was HIS show.  As you can guess it hasn't been an easy transition from him to me.  I'm not him ... and frankly I don't think such Scoutmasters do much for building sustainable programs, much less sustainable scouts.  If my older scouts aren't being entertained, they're out.

What I'm learning from this thread is that I should be wary of setting up a "camping club" as a venture crew to placate my oldest scouts.  While I haven't given up on the Venture Crew, I'll approach it with my younger scouts in mind and eventually set it up it as it's meant to be - real leadership and ownership.  Thanks again!