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Eagle94-A1

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Posts posted by Eagle94-A1

  1. 52 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

    The Age Appropriate Guidelines for Scouting Activities explicitly allows Wolves and up to operate paddle craft on calm or gently flowing water. I have located a commercial canoe rental service on a gently flowing river section on which Cub Scouts already regularly go paddling - but since we're not allowed to do any class of rapids, we will have to turn around at a certain point, which is just as well since everyone is still learning and we don't want to go too far.

    CUBS CANNOT DO GENTLY FLOWING WATER SOURCES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (caps, bold underlining and size for major emphasis, now and moving forward)

    Note the Aquatics Subsection of https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-685.pdf states "Aquatics (See Safe Swim Defense, and Safety Afloat for restrictions based on skills, such as swimming ability, rather than age.)"

     

    Safety Afloat states "BSA groups shall use Safety Afloat for all boating activities. Adult leaders supervising activities afloat must have completed Safety Afloat training within the previous two years. Cub Scout activities afloat are limited to council, district, pack, or den events that do not include moving water or float trips (expeditions). "

    So Cubs are NOT allowed on 'gently flowing" as that is moving water. Whoever is telling you otherwise is incorrect, and the Age Appropriate Guidelines need some clarification . I've seen scouts and adults get into some trouble even in "gently flowing" rivers.

    1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

    Since the Bear adventure Salmon Run includes showing proper rowing and paddling form, it seems asinine to ask the scouts to only practice on dry land!

    FYI, prior to June 2015 CS program changes, the equivalent requirements under the old CS program could only be met at District/Council camps, i.e. day camp and resident, and were electives or Arrow Points received AFTER earning the Bear badge. And some areas could nto do them due to restrictions (Camp Standards required BSA Aquatic  Superrvisors running these) When the 411 Cub Scout Committee was revamping the Cub Scout program, My friend on that committee was excited to make it an elective to earn rank. I had to remind him that Cubs were not allowed to do boating activities except at district/council level activities, Long Story short, the 411 committee pushed to allow Packs and Dens to do CS boating activities. One reason why I hated losing the local camp is because it was the only council camp that had a lake and Cubs could do boating.

     

  2. 4 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

    In a March letter addressed to all local lodges ... it will end its official relationship as a charter organization with the Boy Scouts of America.

    “After nearly two years of discussions and negotiations with the BSA, at every level, our exhaustive efforts to secure adequate insurance coverage have failed, and our attorneys and insurance broker, Gallagher, have advised that the insurance offered by the BSA falls far short of that needed to adequately protect our Members, Lodges, State Associations and Grand Lodge and will likely lead to future disputes,” the letter stated.

    ...The Elks’ organization had been assured that they were covered under the BSA insurance program as an “additional insured” until a few years ago, when they realized this was not the case as they were denied coverage in a lawsuit, Hidley wrote in the letter. (emphasis added)

    The first paragraph really concerns me. How many other COs will drop us?

    The second paragraph infuriates me, hence the emphasis. Either my superiors lied to me about this, or they were lied to by others. But when I was trying to start units This was something I was told to tell prospective COs to help alleviate their litigation fears.

    This is why I stated the COs needed to be part of the settlement, BSA did indeed make promises to protect COs.

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    • Upvote 1
  3. 3 hours ago, scoutldr said:

    Our Council charters a Venturing Crew and each camp staff member is dual registered in the Crew.  The Crew number is the Council number.  They wear the Venturing Uniform with silver loops.  Also helps pad the membership numbers. ;)  

     

    Sometimes summer camp staff are not registered anywhere until they join staff. The camp chaplain whose uniform items i had to pick up from the scout shop and bring to him at camp, was not registered anywhere else except the the summer camp post/crew. Ditto for the Marines and Sailors who had TDY assignments to summer camp staff. And sometimes Staff are not even from the council the camp is in.

  4. Every camp does different things. I know some camps want u with at least one uniform shirt, usually Venturing, that has the silver loops, council CSP, and Camp Staff patch. Others want u in at least one Venturing uniform with green loops, CSP, crew #, and pot patch, usually camp staff, but I have seen a few custom patches with camp staff director. Other camps just want u in a uniform. 
     

    an aside. This brings back memories of one getting hold of a uniform for our camp chaplain. Long story short, I picked up his uniform to bring to him at camp, and discovered not only was he an Eagle Scout, but also earned the Heroism Award. First person I ever met with it.

     

    • Upvote 1
  5. A little background on the National Medal of Outdoor Achievement. 
     

    In 1998 when Venturing split from Exploring, the Ranger Award was created as recognition for Venturers who essentially earned the Outdoor Bronze Award, and continued on after earning it in other areas. Ranger was an all or nothing award if memory serves because you only got the Outdoor Bronze once. 
     

    Venturing and its recognition scheme was confusing for some because there already was an older Boy Scout program in troops called venture crews, and they could earn the Varsity/Venture letter, and pins to wear in the letter. Venture crews became venture patrols to try and mitigate the confusion. National knew this would happen because as early as May 1998 they were told by pros in training that confusion would result. And 20+ years later, we still here “ Venture Scout,” and “venture crew” for Venturers and Venturing Crews.

     

    You had venture crews/patrols start working on Venturing recognition, not realizing it was a completely separate program. I know one troop discovered it was a separate program after they submitted 2 or 3 Scouts for the Outdoor Bronze Award. As you can imagine, this ticked folks off. While the recognitions, Bronze, Gold, and Silver Awards, were not duplicated in Scouts ( eventually the names changed and they became ranks). The Ranger Award, was duplicated.  To placate those upset, the National Medal for Outdoor Achievement was created, and to provide immediate recognition the National Outdoor Achievement Award and segments were created to show progress. 
     

    Locally, I have not seen either patches or medals. So I do not know how popular they are. 

  6. My concern about wearing GSUSA insignia on BSA uniforms, even if allowed, is the lawsuit that took place recently. Remember GSUSA sued Boy Scouts for copyright infringement, ad nauseum when we allowed girls in. While the lawsuit was dropped, My understanding is that GSUSA units can still not do joint activite with BSA, i.e. Memorial Day Service Projects.

    Regarding Sea Scouts, their uniforms are the most minimalistic of the BSA's uniforms. It has only been within the past 5 years that they are allowed to wear OA and Jambo insignia.

  7. 1 hour ago, scoutldr said:

     I don't even recall wearing a plaid Webs necker, but my sons did.  No "colors" or activity pins back then, either.

    Before the Webelos Rank, It was Lions, and the AOL Award was originally called the WeBeLoS award. I think the term "Webelos, Rank," plaid necker, and tricolors started in 1972. My brothers were Cubs in that time period, and I wore some of their stuff. A lot of changes occured in 1972, some good, some I would care to forget.

     

  8. 1 hour ago, scoutldr said:

    So, when a unit recharters on Jan 1, those individuals with expired memberships will be dropped?  What about those who lapse a few months after recharter?  Will the unit be issued a new roster?

    My question is this:

    What happens to the Scouts who pay the registration fee on time, but the Troop goes beyond the 2 month extension and gets dropped?

    We regularly have one unit that goes beyond the 2 month extension, gets dropped, and then recharters.

  9. 19 hours ago, Chgodon said:

    Looking at some old school photos, I'm thinking I was about 8 yrs old in 3rd grade in these photos. The photo

    of my mother (den mother) and I is stamped 1972. Can you be a Bear at 11 yrs old? I assume if you  "enter" into

    the Cub Scouts at 11 yrs old, you would be a Weblo. I used a magnifying glass and my neckerchief slider looks like

    a Bear even though the Bear & Wolf look identical. Hope this info and photos help. Also can't figure out the unit patch

    number due to the angle.  Appreciate any help from Cub Scout historians. 

     

    11 Would be a Boy Scout in 1972, not a Cub Scout of any type. 3rd Grade at that time would be Wolf. And up until  circa 1990s Wolves and Bear wore the same slide. I do not know when in the 1970s different color neckers came out, but by 1982, Yellow necker for Wolf and light blue necker for Bear. Webelos had a plaid necker.

     

    16 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

      In that time period, Webelos still wore the blue Cub Scout uniform and not the Boy Scout uniform as is the typical today. 

    August 1984 was when the option to bear the tan and green Boy Scout uniform, with Cub Scout modifications was first allowed. And you had a choice in the matter. Reason for the option as stated at the time was to save families money. If the blue uniform still fit, you could wear it. If it didn't, you went ahead and got the one you would need when you crossed over in a few months.

     

    14 hours ago, Chgodon said:

    3. My birthday is 2/1/1961. I have a 2rd grade photo dated 10/23/1968. I would have turned 7 yrs old. I would have graduated from 2nd grade in May 1969, which I would have turned 8 yrs old. The photo with my mom is dated 5/1972, which means I would have turned 11 yrs old and just graduated 5h grade in May 1972. I think I read that Wolf is for current 2nd grade or 7 yrs old. Bear is for current 3rd grade or 8 yrs old. Not sure if that's correct.

    Prior to August 1989, 3rd grade was Wolf, 4th Grade Bear, and 5th Grade Webelos. August 1982 was when Tiger Cubs came about as a national program for 2nd Graders and was AFFILAITED (emphasis) with Cub Packs. There were Tiger Cub Test groups prior to 1982, and a Tige Cub Groups was not required as it was considered a separate program from Cub Scouts. They even had their own separate Veteran Pin background, orange, and at first a "Tiger Cub Graduate" temp insignia, after completing the program. When Tiger Cubs was officially incorporated into the Cub Scout Program, circa 1989, the square patch was dropped, and the Tiger Cub strip was created. They got their own rank patch in the 2000s.

     

    6 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

    2nd grade would have been Wolf

    3rd grade would have been Bear

    Incorrect. 1989 was when Wolves were dropped to 2nd grade, Bears dropped to 3rd grade, and Webelos became an 18-21 month long program starting int 4th grade because research showed it took that long for Cub Scouts, and more than likely their parents as well, that long to adjust to the differences between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts

    2 hours ago, Chgodon said:

     So I decided to join the Cub Scouts in 2nd grade (1968 to 1969) in order to start out as a Wolf.

    Not possible. Prior to August 1989, Wolfs started in 3rd grade. Also priot to August 1989, Webelos Den Leaders had to be male. That was part of the transition process  because women could NOT serve in troop leadership roles. Could the photo be misdated? And if it isn't, You may have gotten a new uniform, and the patches were not fully sewed on yet

    Hope this helps. Also I may have some CS handbooks fromt eh time period. My brothers were Cubs in that time period, and since my mom knows I am interested in BSA's history, she gave me the surviving BSA materials she saved from Hurricane Katrina.

     

    Good luck in the quest.

  10. 1 hour ago, UKScouterInCA said:

    Scouting - An amazing program that is successful because of the amazing volunteers in Troops nationwide, DESPITE the best efforts of National. 

    May I suggest this alteration?

    Scouting - An amazing program that is successful because of the amazing volunteers in units nationwide, DESPITE the best efforts of National.

    When it comes to the price increases at the last minute, Packs had it toughest in my neck of the woods because of round ups.

     

    • Upvote 1
  11. 1 hour ago, UKScouterInCA said:

    If they are discontinuing the award, National are not being communicative about it. Really unfair to anyone currently working towards it.

    Sadly BSA has poor communication skills. They dropped a little used program, venture patrols, with no announcement. In  2018, they changed YP guidelines stating 18-20 year olds no longer counted towards YP supervision effective immediately in late March/early April, only to have to walk it back to September, after Summer Camp season. Only reason they changed it is because many units at the time used their 18-20 year olds as the 2nd adult in camp. And historically they have upped registration prices during the middle of Round Up season.

  12. 18 minutes ago, tree123 said:

    Regarding requirement 9b for the Camping merit badge, what would define the backpacking for at least four miles? Would a scout need to carry a tent in addition to the gear they are already carrying in their backpack? Also, for the snow camping experience, if the temperature conditions could allow for snow but no precipitation occurs, would this trip still apply?

    here are the current 2023 requirements from http://usscouts.org/mb/mb001.asp

     

    Show experience in camping by doing the following:

    1. Camp a total of at least 20 nights at designated Scouting activities or events. 4 One long-term camping experience of up to six consecutive nights may be applied toward this requirement. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched. If the camp provides a tent that has already been pitched, you need not pitch your own tent.
    2. On any of these camping experiences, you must do TWO of the following, only with proper preparation and under qualified supervision:
      1. Hike up a mountain, gaining at least 1,000 vertical feet.
      2. Backpack, snowshoe, or cross-country ski for at least 4 miles.
      3. Take a bike trip of at least 15 miles or at least four hours.
      4. Take a nonmotorized trip on the water of at least four hours or 5 miles.
      5. Plan and carry out an overnight snow camping experience.
      6. Rappel down a rappel route of 30 feet or more

     

    Regarding snow question,  if there is no show, how cna the requirement be met?

     

    As for the backpacking question, that requires some specialized gear, i.e. backpacking stove, nonpersihable food, waterfilters, etc, Group gear, which for some units includes tents, I have seen done different ways. Some troops with split the tents in 1/2 and give each half to the tentmates. Other untis will include the tents in the group gear, and divide it up by weight.

    But I would not use a car camping trip where  you have the scouts do a 4 mile hike with packs on count. But we are fortunate in that we do a yearly backpacking trip on the AT.

     

     

  13. I got concerns for BSA's future after all the recent new rules and NAM announcements. It appears to me that folks at national are clueless as to what is happening in the field.

    Take the new One Night Cub Scout camping rule. That is going to hurt a lot of pack who have been doing 2 night camp outs for the past 20 years+. We are already hearing of  malicious compliance, and I see it happening even more in the future. Heard some packs will start offering 2 camp outs when they do their own: one Friday-Saturday and  one Saturday-Sunday.

    Year-round dues collection direct from families will be a nightmare for a variety of reasons. One  will be those families that are members through insurance plans, unit scholarships, sponsorships, council scholarships, etc. Half my unit has their membership paid via insurance, and 1 has a unit scholarship. Add in keeping tack of who is and who isn't registered. And what happens when a Scout is dropped, but is still active?

    And whose idea was it to segregate coed dens at 5th grade in preparation for Scouts BSA?  There was research done showing that the transition from Cubs to Scouts need to be 18-24 months. I was part of the old 9-12 month Webelos program in the 1980s, and can vouch for the need. Today I see too many Webelos and AOL dens being run like Tiger-Bear dens, and it is not only hurting the Scouts, but retention. Heck I know of one den that didn't begin the Scouting Adventure requirements until a month before they Crossed Over. None of those Scouts joined a troop, despite "crossing over" and getting troop regalia. Other Dens start trasnsition in August/September of 5th grade, and their Cubs, and parents, are not much better prepared either.

    Speaking of transition, having the Webelos/AOLs  follow Cub Scout camping rules, specifically one nite only, when they do their troop camping visit is stupid. Even back in the 1980s, the Webelos Overnighters with troop was one to two nights. I know they did this in order to allow parents to camp, still.

    And I have mixed emotions on no longer allowing a parent to camp with troops.  I understand that it is a condition of the bankruptcy. But when a troop does not have a Cub Scout pack, it is very hard when you have Webelos visit, and cannot camp. Do not get me started on visitors who have never been in Scouts at all.

    And what about MB counselors? I guess they can camp now since they are paying a fee as the rules that came out a few weeks ago are no longer valid since MBCs will start paying a fee. You would think folks within the organization would communicate with each other.

    And the price increases. 6.6% increase on youth and 33.3% on adults.   Do they not realize they are pricing families out of the program? I am so glad my older two have, or will, age out. Youngest met his goal, he got Eagle, and if he decides not to renew, I cannot blame him.

     

    • Upvote 2
  14. I am willing to bet there was a local architect with a Scouting background who would have donated their time on creating a plan.

    We had one that came up with plans to renovate one camp locally, and the PTB axed it.

    • Upvote 1
  15. 5 minutes ago, skeptic said:

    So, again we will see comments that ignore other youth activity costs.  That is the standard, and has been such for a while now.  BSA kept cost per member low for decades in comparison to most other groups, and they still are on averge less. 

    Probably because most folks in my neck of the woods cannot afford other youth activities. Any increase in price is significant, despite what the cost compared to other activities .

  16. @Fred8033,

    I'm with you. After this year, only one of my sons will be eligible to be a Scout. But he is burnt out. He has been doing Scouting in some shape or form since being a toddler, and hanging with his brothers in Cub Scouts. He achieved his goal, Eagle, and may quit once December comes. He may have stayed around if his brothers and a few 18+ friends stuck around, but none of them are willing to give up their friendships per YP rules to remain in Scouting.

    • Upvote 1
  17. 40 minutes ago, Cleveland Rocks said:
    • $25 for Merit Badge Counselors (New Fee applies only for Merit Badge Counselors not already registered as leaders) 

     

    One positive out of the MBC fee, now MBCs can camp with troops, ships, and crews  since they are in a PAID position.

    • Upvote 1
  18. The split should occur in 4th grade, not 5th. The entire reason why Webelos became an 18-24 month program in the 1990s instead of the 9-12 month program in previous years was the research showed that it takes about 2 years to get the Scouts, and in my experience the parents as well, up to speed with the differences between Cub Scouts and Scouts.

    Whomever made this decision did not do their due diligence, and I fear this will continue to hurt troops' retention of new Scouts.

    • Upvote 1
  19. 1 hour ago, Armymutt said:

    I wonder how often this happens compared to the old days.  Seems that the increasing competition for social media attention and college applications makes parents slough off integrity in an effort to get their kid rank.  I have seen some questionable stuff in Cub Scouts, like people earning 70% of their rank in a weekend.  Even had one claim that a kid earned AOL despite having attended one meeting and a day (not night) of camping.  

    This incident was 20+ years ago before all the hype.  More recently I know of one case where mom threatened a lawsuit against BSA if an extension was not given to her son to do a new project after turning 18. Long story short, The kid did NOT follow the directions given to him by the benefitting organization (BO) prior to approval, and did NOT listen to the recommendations of his SM and ASMs, one of whom was a professional contractor. He ended up getting kicked off the BO's property, turning over all unused funds to repair the damage he causes, got Scouts banned from ever doing another service project there, and nearly caused the BO to be shut down and fined until repaires were made. 

     

    54 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

    I ran into the former Scout one time not knowing who he was.  I was surprised he was awarded an Eagle, until I was informed of the situation.

    There... fixed that for you 😜 

    Sadly he was still registered and active in the troop when I met him. This was about 6 months after National approval, and he was 15 or 16.

    • Thanks 1
  20. On 5/20/2023 at 9:47 AM, PACAN said:

    ..  Never seen ,, although I guess it has happened,  the scout turned down because it is always the fault of the adults even it there is clear evidence that the scout did not actually do the requirements.

    I can testify to this. We had a young man denied Eagle because it was discovered troop's leadership, which consisted of Grandpa SM, Dad ASM, and Mom CC pencil whipped a bunch of his MBs so he could get Eagle at 13 or so. EBOR did what they were suppose to do and gave him a plan to actually earn Eagle. The family appealed to the council and was denied. Family appealed to  national, and he was awarded Eagle with the statement in rationale "We do not penalize the Scout for the mistakes of the adults" or words to that effect. The entire District Advancement Committee resigned in protest over this stating "National can conduct these EBORs"

    I ran into the Scout one time not knowing who he was. I was surprised he was an Eagle, until I was informed of the situation.

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