Eagle94-A1

CM & WD,

One local tribe in my old stomping grounds had individual houses similar to your pic. But the community meeting place, was more substantial. Quinnipissa Lodge 479 built a replica of the Caddo House, and use it for their ceremonies.

I like it

I've bad expereince with just giving stuff to scouts. I've seen folks donate money for equipment or outright give them equipment, and it was not taken care of. Heck my son's troop is having some issues with tents being damaged, and they did some fundraising to get them. I like having some skin in the game, whether is is traditional fundraising, i.e. popcorn, spaghetti dinners etc, or having them work events. I remember picking up garbage at one event every year, and that is what paid for me to stay in the troop and do campouts after my father walked out. I cut grass, picked up garbage. and was a ball boy at a tennis tourney.

I also like the idea of if you do receive a donation, you THANK THE DONOR!  One troop went Christmas caroling to  donors homes. To thank the CO, they would cut palms for the Palm Sunday services. Even a card is worthwhile.

CM&WD,

One of the challenges of putting on good training, especially outdoor training, is the prep work. To do it correctly, and I stress correctly it takes 6-9 months of prepwork i.e. finding a date that can get the most people to attend, recruiting qualified staff, organizing who does what etc. I know the council I grew up in did the training 2 SMF, and later IOLS 2 times a year with one group of districts hosting the spring course, and another group of districts hosting the fall course.  My "troop" had 6 patrols of 8 or 9 from all over the council, and the fall course had a similar number.

My current council has it that every district does their own. It's challenging because IMHO there is a lot of duplication of effort, fewer staffers and smaller pool of experts than with a group of districts hostng, and smaller number of participants. Last time I only had 1 patrol, and one time I had only 2 participants. We ended up doing a "test out"  for that session since both had extensive outdoor expereince.

After 7 years as a Boy Scout who attended Brownsea 22, the old Scoutmaster Fundamentals Course, which is now divided into SM Specific and IOLS ( and SF had a 3rd module on the "Model Troop Meeting" ) the only thing that I learned new was the paperwork side of things, i.e. the need for tour permits, getting  Safe Swim Defense certified, etc.  Like some others, I could have taught the course, especially the outdoor portion.

When I was training chair, one of the things I did was get folks I knew who needed IOLS to be " trained" but already had the knowledge, skills, and abilitities to help staff the event. For example, I got the leader who's been to Philmont 3x and another leader who went through JLT, served on summer camp staff, and was a combat medic to staff the event so they could get credit for the event. As well as provide some great imput.

I also had some youth staff teaching courses as a way to A) reinforce the concept of "Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" by showing new leaders that yes the youth can take care of themseleves and B) to get the best staffers in the different areas of training.

On a slightly different tangent, I was told I needed to take BALOO (Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation for Cub Scout leaders) to take my pack camping as my SMF and IOLS training didn't count. That was a complete waste of my time as I learned only one new thing: how to tie a bottle knot.

What has happened in my neck of the woods is that was started by my successor is that we are getting Cub Scout leaders to IOLS and doing and adding the Cub Scout materials to the course. The participants get a "three for one special" of BALOO, Outdoor Webelos Leader (OWL) and IOLS all in one weekend for those who need it.  National at one time was talking about consolidating all three courses, and some districts combine OWL and IOLS into one weekend.

We also do the "Are You Smarter Than a First Class Scout" IOLS test out which is Pass or Fail. So far we have had 100% success rate as the leaders are taking it seriously. Except for the old fogey who doesn't seem to have any time in his retirement to finally get trained. He keeps using "I'm going to Philmont again," or 'That's an OA weekend," or "I'm on the road visiting...." You would think after 50+ years in Scouting, he would finally get trained

I admit, I've never done WB, but I've done Brownsea 22 and staffed JLT. I was told both courses are 'Woodbadge Lite" since the material is nearly identical, and Scouts don't do tickets. In fact one of the JLT staffers, who turned 18 after the course and went to WB told me when I asked him about the course, "I wouldn't waste my time going right now since everything taught at WB we taugh at JLT. I'd wait until you got out of Scouts for a while, and come back in and need a refresher."

Back then, the courses took what Scouts should know as First Class or higher Scouts, and applied it in a no-nonsense setting where we not only mastered the skills, but could teach those skills effortlessly since we lived it for a week.

Someday I do plan on going through WB, but it's more of a check off for me. Jambo has WB as a requirement for being a contingent leader now, and there are some folks I've met who, if you don't have beads, you don't know squat. What's funny is, when I tell those who know me that I haven't done WB yet, they freak out.

Then again, we have one "old fogey" who is still "untrained" after 60+ years in Scouting. He still hasn't taken IOLS. He's been to busy camping, doing OA, working at Philmont, and travelling in his retirement to attend IOLS.

Do not know how much it's going to cost, but the CO for my son's troop is going to build a building specifcally for Scouting on the new property. The building is suppose to be large enough for both the pack and troop to meet at the same time. Kinda helps when the IH is doing double duty as an ASM, and the #1 deacon who is heading up the new facility layout  is also the committee chairman.

Most of the troops in my neck of the woods have their own rooms, usually the basements, of the COs. One such troop has stuff going back to Harding Administration!

Unfortunately paying a fee for scout camp use is the norm in my neck of the woods.  I had to pay useage fees for day camp and various camporees. It is  incorporated into the event budget, so it's in the fee for the event, and most folks do not notice.

You may say I've drunk the council Kool Aid, but I'm for it because the camp usage fees are used to take care of the camp in addition to the designated council budget funds. So the more the local council camps are used, the more money that camp gets. And that is a good thing compared to before. When I first got into the council, the there was no fees, but very, and I stress VERY little maintence done at the local, non-summer camp Scout camp. So little was done that individual troops and the OA chapters that used the camp did more for the camps than council did.  Also units really didn't use the camp, going instead to state parks and other camp grounds that also charged fees.

When we got a new Scout Executive, he told us what he wanted to do; have a fee and use the fees to maintain and improve the different camps. Yes there was some grumbling, but 7 years later, the local camp is SO much better than it was before. Improvements and repairs have been made, and a new boating center was built (although a large chunck of the money was a estate bequest). And while I have not visited all of our council's camps, I do know improvements have been made at them as well.

The local camp has improved so much since fee went into effect, we have increased the number of folks using the camp dramatically.  I don't know overall numbers, but I know one event at the camp has quadrupled in attendancesince it came out 6 years ago. And we have OOC units using it as well. And I see increased use at the local camp since it's the only Scout camp in the council that Cubs can go boating on ( all the others are located on open water). So now that the Cub Scout boating restrictions have been removed, I see more Packs using the place to go canoeing, kayaking, etc.

TG IMHO is probably THE most important job in the troop that uses a New Scout Patrol (NSP) because his job is to get the Scouts up to speed and train the PL to do the job without. Essentially his job is wo work his way out of a job.

 

 

 

It's great that it is on the calendar early which helps the PLC plan but even with that information I have to wonder, why do the troops decide not to go? 

 

 

Ok Eagle, if they were not answering emails and not answering their phone isn't there some other personal way they could have been contacted (like a DE face to face with them at their troop, a PLC meeting, or maybe a lunch)?

 

 UC passed away and I was the temporary UC. Unfortunately my work schedule is not conducive to day time meetings, and they meet on a night I am unabel to visit; they now have a new UC but new commissioner meetings are on the same bad nite fo me so I do not know what is up..  As for the DE,  it seems as if the only time the SM has the time for the DE is when the SM wants something. otherwise he's busy or on assignment, or whatever.  And our DE is actually a DD with 2, and at one point 3, other districts. So he is relying heavily on volunteers. 

 

And the SM seems to prefer FB to communicate. When he had "issues" with the OA chapter, instead of contacting the person in charge ( Chapter Chier, or CC for short) he broadcasted his issues publically on the district FB site. The SM knew who to contact because A) the SM contacted the CC for the the unit election which the CC ran; CC sent out letters to an information meeting to all candidates with his personal contact info which the SM's son and other members of the troop received the letter and attended the meeting. Frustrating because A) the issues were discussed at the info session, B) Issues were discussed at RT wjhich they don't attend, C) NO ONE CONTACTED THE CC FOR CLARIFCATION ( emphasis) and D) the issue was a lodge level one and not a chapter one. Apparently the SM wanted an adult and not a youth to answer the question, so when I posted exactly what teh CC said, all was good.

 

 

Where they asked to run an event or told they were going to run an event? Maybe it was assumed they were going and that they were going to run an event?

 

They were asked to run an event, and even chose the event they wanted to run. One of the few times the SM actually answered his phone.

 

 

Once again, wouldn't a face to face with the troop leaders clear up some of these issues? Too often I've heard about a District/Council "bending over backward" to get involvement from troops but the efforts are only alienating the Troops further inward.

 

The district has tried to meet with them  to no avail. We have had real issues with the troop, see some of my other posts about them.

 

The one time I had the opportunity to have a talk with them was the result of SNAFU.  My pack is suppose to be the feeder pack to his troop. We had a joint camp out for my son's Cross Over, which incidentilly was the last time they did anything with the pack. Weather was horrible and everyone left except the SM, his son and one Scout. I stayed so he would have 2 deep leadership, and we discussed  alot. Problem is that what he wants is not feasible. I'll give one example. He thinks that training should be available ANY  TIME (emphasis) a leader wants it within the district. "We shouldn't have to drive over 20 minutes to get training.' And if we don't have enough volunteer trainers to put on courses whenever the leaders want it, 'The district should hire outside trainers to do the training whenever a leader wants it." 

 

Lets assume for a moment that the PLC is fully aware of the camporee but decides not to go or the PLC decides to go but very few (if any) Scouts sign up for the camproee. Why didn't they want to come to the camproee? Has anyone asked?

 

Unfortunately this is the troop that doesn't use the patrol method. On that joint pack/troop campout, I had a discussion with the Scouts. Somehow the topic of patrol leaders, elections, Patrol Method, etc came up. And the PL and other positions are appointed  to "let everyone have a chance at being leader," the NYLT trained Scouts were frustrated that they had no input or control over the troop and that " Once I get Eagle, I'm out.'" 

 

 

One last question for the group, if a Troop does not participate in district/council activites but camps every month, does a series of service projects, has Scouts advancing, and continues ever year to grow the Troop membership, is this troop successfully promoting Scouting? 

 

Good question. I say it depends. Camping every month is great. But is it family camping, cabin camping, is it theme park camping, or is it real, honest to goodness Boy Scout camping?  The troop above does a lot of what I discussed. heck one parent was complaining about how  it seems as if they are constantly doing family camping with siblings in attendance. And the two times I did camp with them, it was a mess. Heck my Webelos son said they were doing it wrong.

 

EDITED: Reminded of a comment one of the camporee staff who also staffed Webeloree made about my son's den. "They could show the troop how to follow the Patrol Method."

 

Now if the Scouts think the camporee is going to be lame, or as happened one year, turned into a MB weekend, and they would rather do something else, i.e. canoeing, backpacking, other campout, etc. then That is good fro me. heck my troop growing up went to a handful of camporees.

 

As for advancement, is it really being done where the Scout has 'mastered the skill" as is the standard for Boy Scouts, or is it 'One and Done?" or worse is it being pencil whipped or Mommy and Daddy doing the work instead of the Scout?  I know they work on MBs at every meeting, using parents as MBCs becuase that is what former members of the troop have told me what is happening.

 

As far as service projects, I know they are being done becasue the troop is producing Eagles. BUT I also knwo that one Eagle told me that  he got his 4-H group involved in the project as none odf the Scouts were interested in helping, except those also in 4-H. So are the Scout actively particiapting in the projects, or is the troop getting credit for other organizations assistance?

 

I know the troop involved is losing members. They are not involved at all with the feeder pack. Theonly person who has recruited for them was me in my role as UC for them, and the 3 kids I got for them quit within 6 months because "it was too much like school."

 

My district tried somethinglike that, specifically it would go down theunit number list to decide who runs the leaders' crackerbarrels.  It was a failure.

I admit I really want the youth participating in cemporee events instead of running them. But those Scouts WILLING to host and run should have full power to decide hwo things are going to be.

My answer would be 'See you nect year."

To paraphrase Yoda, knots and beads matter not.

If the Scouts don't know how to use something, and there is no one else to teach them, then obviously you gotta do what you gotta do.

OUTSTANDING YOUNG MAN!

I had to take one of the my scouts to the ER while at summer camp a long time ago. He was OK, but had to get a prescription filled. I didn't have the money or his insurance card with me, so I dropped him off at camp, got money and the insurance info, and headed backinto town for his 'script. It was a nasty evening, heavy rain, poor visibility, etc. On the way back to camp after picking up the prescription, someone shot out across the road in front of me, causing me to hydroplane onto the side of the road in order to avoid hitting them. They kept on going as if nothing happened. And i am stuck in the mud.

After trying to get out of the mud, but before I could call a tow truck, one happened to see me and stopped. to help me out. He saw me in uniform, asked what happened, and if I was going to the local camp.  He then proceeded to tow me out, and when I asked how much, "Just doing my good turn for the day. Make sure you help someone next time you see them stranded on the side of the road."

If this is going on a tangent, please bear with me as I am not trying to.

I stated that my friend may be right in taking 5 years or more to get a troop to be fully independent of the adults. I know some of the issues I'm seeing with my son's troop are the following

1) SPL is not mature enough, doesn't have the self-confidence for the job, nor the respect from some of the "older" Scouts. Part of that is the fact that the troop is so young, oldest scout is 14, and we've had an influx of new scouts in the past 18 months. Troop has tripled in size since when my son joined and has 2 NSPs. WHile the SPL has the KSAs and training to do the job,  and I've told him repeatedly he's doing a good job, he does get frustrated with the older Scouts not listening. He also get uncomfortable speaking and running things when the stuttering breaks out.

HOWEVER, With the 3 SPLs I've seen, each one is doing a better job than the previous one. The PLs, especially the  NSP my son was in, are doing their jobs better than previous PLs. Grant you, my son helps alot with his old patrol, but I and others can see the improvement. And our second NSP has made strides since they first came to the troop in Decemeber. I just hope when they get  5 new Scouts at the end of the month, it doesn't affect the dynamics too much.

2) IMHO, when you have such a young troop, and you really do not have a Troop Guide that is really capable of doing the job justice, you do need a few ASMs who understand the Patrol Method, and can work with and mentor the PL and TG without telling them what to do. Normally that would eb the SPL, ASPL, and other "older Scouts' " jobs IMHO. But I know I've had to "get involved" for lack of a better term, and counsel and mentor a PL who'se TG basically abandoned the NSP. What I found ironic was that when the TG realized he essentially abandoned his patrol, that patrol is doing quite well.

When did BALOO, OWLS, and ITOLS become online courses?

And why am I not surprised the new training modules won't be available until AFTER the new program goes into effect.

Thankfully the literature came out on time!

I know we have. One unit is because they need to leave Saturday nite. Hopefully their new bishop and SM will get them active once again. One unit has not replied directly, just ignores callls and emails. Heck they were suppose to run an event at camporee, and never informed anyone on the camporee staff that they were not going.  I found out via a Facebook post that they were not going to camporee the monday before camporee! However one post on FB stated they believed there was too much politics on the district level, and they cannot get minimum number of Scouts for a patrol to go to council camporee.

IMHO the "politics" excuse is BS as the district has bent over backwards trying to get them involved. District committee meetings and RTs are at their CO, we've asked adults form the troop to be on the district level, etc. Heck the district went so far as to let them take over another troop's campsite that the original troop  put in for when campsite assingments were first made which the troop never went to the meeting. Very big deal since the original troop paid to have the water system put in the campsite, and the money used to build the shelter in the campsite was the result of a patch auctions from a deceased Scout's collection form the original troop.

As for council camporee, not having a minimum of 4 Scouts to compete may be a legitimate reason. But I'm willing to bet that if the Scouts knew about council camporee well enough in advance and actually made a calendar instead of the SM doing it, they may just want to go.

Sorry to rant, but you all know the frustration the unit has caused me.

Use to be the best youth leadership training a scout could get, is NOAC still that way.

 

Barry

Don't know about other training staff, but I ran into a bunch of AIA staffers at our section conclave. Top notch folks. So wish I was going.

I've seen special "Staff" hats used before, but those were ti ID the folks working the event, you could ask questions about the event, and enforce some of the policies ( "WHATCHA MEAN I CAN'T KEEP MY CAR IN THE CAMPSITE.?!?!?!?!"and the caps are for being screamed at.)

Why can't folks realize that the program is for the Scouts and not the adults.

GBB recommended for new troops or troops getting back to the patrol method, that the Sm act mroe like the SPL to get the Scouts trained. He basically showed them how to do it. Over a 6 month period, he gradually stepped back from that role and started the Scouts onthe pacth to runnign everything.

I am actyually thinking it may take 5 years to get it running. A good friend who started a troop took 5 years to get it where the boys were running things completely. Oldest son's troop is having some issues, but is boy run.

My thoughts.

1) While training is important, it is not the  "be all, end all solution." I had some extremely knowledgable, extremely pro Patrol Method scouters AND SCOUTS (emphasis) teach ITOLS with me, and one of those staffers also did SM and ASM Specific. We had one gentlemen in both of those classes we taught, and 4 years later is STILL not using the Patrol Method. He also got a bunch of counseling and mentoring to boot. But " Scouting has to change with the times."

2) Someone mentioned "indoctrination" and talked about starting out in Cub Scouts.  I second that as I have constantly talked about how the Patrol Method is "Organized Chaos" from the time my boys are Tigers. I've taken the Cubs to visit Boy Scout activities and see the chaos in motion. I constantly talk it up. And it's funny when a Webelos can tell you "They 're doing it wrong."

3) Mentoring by expereinced Scouters is another method that can help. We have a brand new, just Crossed Over WDL to ASM, and he sometimes has challenges adapting. I've had to have a conversation or three at various functions about how the boys need to work out the problem, don't get too stressed out about the situation, etc. I also told him to start noticing the little things, i.e. working together, dealing with each other, helping each other out, etc that slowly works it way out with a NSP.  And he is catching on.

4) No troop will be perfect. Even Green Bar Bill used the SM as an SPL for training a new Scout troop or reinstilling the Patrol Method in an existing troop sections of the 3rd ed. SMHB. But he also had the troop cpmpletely boy-led in 6 months.

My council was the one that piloted the PWC at the Pamilco Sea Base. I honestly do not know all the details, except that it was a long, detailed, paperfilled process that had to go through national to be approved as a pilot program. I think it took over a year to jump through the hoops, but don't quote me on it.

Now from one of the participants, when they got to do the PWC, it was a BLAST!  but they had to go through a lot of classroom work before getting there.

At one point we had a fire ban in NC for so long that we had NSPs that didn't even know how to build one! And when we were able to get a firebuilding event at camporee ( It's good to have the firemarshall as an SM   ) one 1 patrol was able to build the fire, cook the noodle, and tie it in a square knot! Even then, they could not do it in the 30 minutes allocated. It took them 31 minutes and they lost 10 points.

My son's troop had a tradition, and the fireban stopped it. One meal HAD to be cooked over an open flame/wood coals. They stopped it for a while, and haven't started it back up yet.

We went out of council last year, the older Scouts decided on it. All of the Scout that wen loved it so much, they persuaded those who didn't go to go back this year.

What the guys who have been to the local council and the OOC camps liked were the nite time activities, bikes allowed for travelling, BMX track, skateboard area, and the waterslide.  All the guys who have only been ot the OOC camp loved the waterslide and BMX tracks.

Now what I look for is a camp that doesn't focus solely on MBs.

One ASM looks for a camp with poor wireless reception so work wont try an call him in on

The other ASM last year wanted to go to a camp far enough away where he could delegate some duties to his associate pastor.  Alas, he lost out as camp is 50 minutes away.

I still use it on occasion. i have a Whisperlite Int. so I'll burn anything.

We've been using RTs fand the suggestes matrials from national about the new program since January.

Biggest complaint is that folks wanted the materials, at least the leaders' info, 2-3 months ago so they could plan the upcoming year. Especially the district activities that take a year to plan.