Eagle94-A1

2 hours ago, Smokediver said:

This attitude that everyone is guilty no matter what the courts say is ridiculous and even though this is a private organization they still should allow for due process , I believe that if a person is found responsible in a court of law then they should be removed from the program, but if there are only accusations and unfounded criminal investigations then the person should be allowed to resume their Scouting activities.

Respectfully disagree. Even though the IVF has been used against the BSA in the lawsuit, at the time it was one of the best protections for youth. There are cases in there where the parents refused to prosecute the perpetrator, so it was never brought to court. One victim posted information about his perp where the records stated the parents did not want to have their children tesitify in a court martial.  Perp went to a psych hospital, and was medically discharged. Only the IVF prevented him from working for the BSA, as he applied to a job. 

NOW, if you are declared innocent, then I think you should be reinstated.

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I know a Vigil Honor member who was accused of murder, convicted, and exonerated on appeal.

It was appropriate that they put him in the IVF during the trail and after convicted.  But once exonerated... ???

They will never re-instate him, even though our justice system cleared him, and expunged that record.  I think because there is now an easily accessible electronic history of news articles, and that would make people nervous.

BSA considers him "damaged goods".

My friend above didn't even get a trial.  She was removed, even when the criminal investigation supported her side of the story. BSA considered her "damaged goods."

Good luck.

I am not trying to be a pessimist, but a realist. I have read of only 2 cases of reinstatement, and you cited one of them. The other case was a guy who walked into a bar in uniform. Long story short, before the age of cell phones, scout bus broke down in the middle of nowhere. SM walked over a mile one way to the first place that had a phone, which happened to be a bar. He called a tow company and a parent to let folks know what is going on, and left the bar. HOWEVER someone saw him, and reported him. It took him over a 18 months to get reinstated.

Sadly the case I am personally aware of the Scouter was never reinstated, despite the fact the accuser had a history of lying to get out of trouble and the criminal investigation showed that he was indeed a peeping Tom spying on the female Scouter in the shower after hours. She was able to attend the Council awards banquet, as a parent, when her son was recognized as an Eagle. It got awkward when it came time for Silver Beaver recognition. They asked all previous SB recipients to stand and be recognized. Her friends that supported her urged her to stand as a Silver Beaver recipient the previous year, and she did. 

21 minutes ago, Ojoman said:

Not too sure about the insurance companies... if the chartered partners are put at risk they were covered by the blanket liability from the mid 70's.

This is what I wonder about. Will BSA, and the insurance companies, actually honor those policies, or see it as "3rd party releases" and not valid.

Crazy Questions, so here it goes. if SCOTUS rules against Perdue, and hence against BSA current plan, and all councils and COs are responsible, A. does that mean those organizations that contributed to the fund get their money back and B. for those post 1976 claims, will BSA honor their obligations with COs, or will COs have to sue for BSA to honor their obligations to the COs?

I am old school. I remember when Scouts could sit on BORs (1972-1989, but I know of some troops that did it later than 1989). I also remember being able to sign off on advancement, especially the First Aid Skill Award since teaching it was a requirement for First Aid MB, and hence First Class Rank.

So I do let select youth sign off until 1st Class.

In my experience the Youth tend to do a better job of this than adults.

15 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Not to be confused with the Rovers (age 18+) scouting program of the Outdoor Service Guides ?  ...

I wonder who will sue who over the term Rovers. I know BSA used it in the past, but I do not  think they have legally defended the term, and thus may have given up rights as a result.

16 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

They have the lineage and the Scout Promise and Law to go with it, do they not? What makes you say that two aligned scouting organizations are only similar in name?

The GSUSA Promise and Law are similar, but different. Some of the differences include the  following:

Organization Model     BSA uses the charter organization concept, think franchisees, whereas GSUSA owns each and every unit. As a result you get Scouts BSA units that are 25, 50, 100+ years old GSUSA units last until there is no longer enough folks left to be a troop, and have short histories,

Philosophy    BSA believes that "OUTING is three-fourth of ScOUTING," and in 2019 had 85% of its members camping at least once per year. GSUSA in 2019 was proud that 12-15% of its membership camps at least once a year.  More later

3 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

The real issue is BSA and GSA are only similar in name; not much else.  Might as well say BSA should merge with 4H or Civil Air Patrol or Boys and Girl Clubs or etc, etc, etc.  

Campfire. If memory serves, Campfire Girls, now Campfire was the official female counterpart to BSA, started by a bunch of the same folks.

Council service team 15 posted the information on FB. Someone posted on my district's FB page. It is now deleted. I wonder if council told him to take it down.

I

12 hours ago, Ojoman said:

And a bad leader blames his subordinates for the balls he drops... experienced that first hand. Water over the dam now but I expect it still goes on. 

Tell me  about it. I had a DFS attempt to humiliate me by blaming me for something  that he did at a staff meeting. I kept telling him let's talk about it after the staff meeting, because I didn't want to publicly embarrass him, like he was trying to do to me. After about 5 minutes and me calmly saying let's talk about it after the staff meeting. He stopped.. When I showed him the documentation that he screwed up and not me, he got angry, told me "fine" and never said anything else to me about the topic.

As for repercussions for challenging SEs, most definitely. I know one volunteer who had their membership revoked. Yep he is in the IVF for questioning financial matters the SE was doing. Worse was he Pro I know. The pro found some financial irregularities, and it escalated to a criminal matter. For his efforts he was "promoted" from a Metro sized council to one of the smallest councils in the nation.

21 hours ago, Ojoman said:

The SE is an employee of the council... If enough reps raise enough issues, the board should take action.  

17 hours ago, skeptic said:

Sadly, the SE has finagled the board to his control more or less, and getting COR's to actually do their job is very hard.  In theory, they could fire the SE, but unless a cooperative wave occurs, that will not happen, and attempts to get a list of all of them has been denied as private, even thogh it should not be...

Way back when, my SE and DFS told me how to manipulate the nominating process to get "pro-council" volunteers on the district committee. They were big donors with no experience, except as a youth or parent, on Scouting.  

As for firing a SE by the executive board, in my time I have seen that happen once. And he ended up in another council. Sadly BSA has a history of moving folks around or promoting them.

@AirForceMom as @dk516shows, the 18+ folks not having social contact outside of Scouting is in the YPT rules, and expanded upon in the FAQs. I cannot tell you how many 18-20 year olds, including 2 of my sons, completely quit Scouting because they refuse to give up their under 18 friends. It really sucks for them, and I do not blame them at all.

So I have been involved in Scouting for over 40 years, and I have burnt out once before. At that time I was in multiple district roles, and serving as a CSDL. Getting rid of the district roles, and focusing on the DL role helped tremendously.

But this past year has been different. The constant fee increases are one thing that is affecting me. Not only has the national fees gone up, but so have the council ones. To be honest I do not see the value in the fees. I see nothing of value from the national fee, As for the council fee,  the council is almost useless. Only service I get from them is the office staff. Professional staff for a number of years have been useless, or worse causing problems. I have asked for help with recruiting so I could keep my unit, and other units in the district, alive instead of starting new units that drain resources, and was no, they will start new units. I have talked in other posts about problems with events and treatment of volunteers. So I honestly cannot see paying those fees, especially with some of the families. SO that is a downer.

The other downer is the troop is dying. At one time, almost all of our Scouts came from other troops. We had a very  active program. But with no school recruiting, we are down to 3 packs in the old district. The troops that  have packs all have close relationships with their packs, as they should, and folks are staying with their COs. We are down to a handful of scouts. We have tried a bunch of different things, but have not gotten anyone. Heck we recruited more Scouts for the girls' troop than our own. 

As for the Scouts, most will age out in the next 1-2 years. One will quit as soon as he gets Eagle because even with financial aid the troop is giving, they cannot afford the program. All they pay is summer camp and monthly camping meals. everything else is paid for by the troop for them. Which is sad because the Scout loves the program, and we have had 4 Eagles in the past 4 years stay with the troop until aging out.   So it has been depressing.

We rechartered for this year, but if things do not improve, I do not think we will be around in 2025. I will take any positive feedback, anything at all. I need spirits lifted, and it ain't happening.

That, and they want income year round, not just in the fall round up season and at  recharter time.

Sea Scout story reminds me of one an ASM told me of, and peaked my interest in Sea Scouts. His ship was located in Norfolk, VA. They did not have a designated vessel to use, so they went looking for one. They found a WWII PT boat in Bangor, Maine, but they had to work on it, get is USCG approved, and transport it back to  Norfolk. They took the train to Maine, worked on it for a few weeks, spent a week getting approved, then steamed from Maine to Norfolk. I think all total it was 5 or 6 weeks spent getting the boat. Forgot to mention, none of the adults went with them, just the Sea Scouts.

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

 Is that a heavily trafficked shipping lane with oceangoing ships or something?

 Yes, heavy traffic, especial US Navy in some areas.

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

You bring up a great point!  You have to "know what right looks like" before you can imitate it...

And, I have met many a professional who does not know what right looks like... we can teach them, too (if they are teachable, but that is another post.)

You can only teach them if they are allowed, and they can only do it right if they are encouraged to do so. Sadly I have met too many Pros who have not cared how stuff is done as long as they meet goals. Does anyone remember the Greater Alabama Council anyone?

1. WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (and yes i am shouting at ya )

2

17 hours ago, NeedleandThread said:

 I'd like to run some fun activities and games relevant to Cit in the World, Cooking, and Communication Merit Badges, but most of what I'm able to find online is either really short opener games (I have most of a 2-hour program block I want to work with here) or doesn't accomplish requirements.

Why the focus on advancement, will this be something done during classes?

3.

17 hours ago, NeedleandThread said:

. The precedent in other areas of the camps is that I don't strictly need to be running activities that complete requirements in this time as long as it's relevant, but I'd like to spend this to be an engaging way for them to get things done. Does anyone here have any ideas?

DO SOMETHING FUN THAT THE SCOUTS WILL ENJOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (this time MAJOR emphasis)

Summer camp is suppose to be fun, not school. Sadly too many camps are turning it into school. Do something fun and memorable that the Scouts will enjoy and want to come back for more. Do not worry about advancement.

4. Good luck.

EDIT: I am an old school Scouter, in that I think the goal should be fun, not advancement. Sadly too many folks focus on advancement, including my Troop CC and Scouts. When I was a Cub Scout Day Camp PD, while most activities had some advancement element to is, not all of them. Kids had so much fun, that we doubled out numbers my second year. The year I stepped down, the camp focused on advancement again, and it was not fun for the Cubs. I came back as PD.

During COVID, my troop did their own summer camp. While  we did some advancement, the focus was on fun.Every one said it was the best summer camp ever, but the problem with it they said was only 2 MBs were able to be earned.

10 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

Haven' read any indication of law enforcement notification of abuse incidents by local councils or NATIONAL BSA in National's Illegible Volunteer files I've read.

Please post all such records from National's Ineligible Volunteer files of which you are aware.

Thanks so much.

I had a friend accused of CSA and was placed in the IVF.  However I cannot find her file among the ones released by a law firm a while back. I can verify that one had police intervention, and she was not prosecuted because evidence supported her , not the accuser.

30 minutes ago, yknot said:

Here's one retrospective that was written after the Sandusky case:

https://digitalcommons.law.villanova.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3262&context=vlr

This recounts teachers being added to the list in many states by the 1970s. To me what's more relevant than the  state laws -- because BSA was and is a national entity -- is that there was growing awareness of these issues and high profile discussions in youth settings from the 1960s forward, unlike what BSA seems to continually claim. 

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (yes I am shouting my appreciation at you.)

This topic really gets to me, and I want as much information as possible.   I was fortunate, I was not a victim. However I could have been. My CM was later arrested for CSA. Something didn't seem right with him, and when he moved up to the troop with his son, he became SM, and I was not comfortable and switched. I found out several years later he was in jail. I also had to report/help incidents twice. 

13 hours ago, yknot said:

In about half of states, teachers were mandatory reporters by the mid 1970s, so... no.

Serious question, can you show me the source where you got that?

I ask because the research I've done showed that the first mandatory reporter laws were for physicians only, and started in late 1960s. CA was the first state to enact these laws, and gradually they expanded who was a mandatory reporter, and the idea spread to other states. The next group was nurses, then other healthcare providers. Teachers started to be come mandatory reports in the late 1970s/early 1980s (again CA started it if memory serves) and that too expanded to other states over time. Youth group volunteers started in the late 1980s, and some states didn't make youth group volunteers mandatory reporters, with libel and slander protections if the  accusation was false, until the late 1990s/early 2000s.

When I did research on this topic a long time ago, the rationale for reporting to the SE, and not directly to authorities,  was that different jurisdictions had different definitions of mandatory reporters. Unless you caught them in the act, if you reported an incident, and it was false, you would be held liable and face possible civil litigation.

Different states have different laws, and laws change over time. If you read some of the files, there are notations that victim's parents did not want their child to relive the horror in court. So there was no prosecution.

As for defamation, and proof, if the victims are unwilling to testify, it makes things difficult to prosecute. Also there are times when allegations have been proven false. I know of one such case in BSA. Duke Lacrosse team also comes to mind. And it wasn't  until the mid-late 1990s, that youth volunteers got mandatory reporter protections if memory serves.

31 minutes ago, Ojoman said:

My grandson's sports programs get paid up front... I do agree that some families may find the up front fees to be a hardship but they can put it on plastic the first time around and then budget for the next year or participate in the unit product sale. Also, a unit can give a family a month to get their paperwork together and register.

And there a families that do not do sports for just that reason as well. As for putting it on plastic, again you have families that if it is a choice between $150 worth of food, or paying for a program your child may not be interested in after 1-2 months, food wins.

One reason I liked prorated fees, it gave families time to get money together. And sometimes packs could help out, but that was when the fees were sub $35. $150 is a lot for some units.

31 minutes ago, Ojoman said:

Some councils have programs to assist lower income families and troops could/should have unit savings plans much like a lay away for summer camp and rechartering so families can put a bit down each meeting/week/month. . That's what I did as a kid. I recall taking my weekly payment and getting it recorded each week with the ;unit treasurer/scribe. It was good practice for real life and planning for expenses by setting a little bit aside each pay. 

But not every one. Some councils are not breaking even, and others barely. As for savings plans, that helps long term, but not the immediate registration question of coming up with all the fees, sometimes over $150. Best example I comes from when I was a Scout. I crossed over in May, and was told to If I wanted to go to summer camp in 6 weeks, I needed to come up with $75 (about $214 today) get as physical, etc. And there was no way my family could come up with that fee.

But I agree budgeting is the way to go. I did just that, plus fundraising, to be able to go on trips. Once a campership was also given. But again budgeting is not the problem it is the high initial cost.

3 hours ago, Ojoman said:

COST ISN'T THE MAIN FACTOR IN LOSS OF MEMBERSHIP, POOR RECRUITMENT, POOR COMMUNITY RELATIONSHIPS AND POOR RETENTION DUE TO WEAK PROGRAM ALONG WITH A LACK OF LEADERS ARE THE MAIN DRIVERS OF MEMBERSHIP DECLINES.

Sorry you are wrong. Cost is indeed a major factor in membership loss, especially since national no longer prorates fees to the unit recharter time. The prorated fees allowed folks to try out the program for a 1-4 month period to see if you liked the program and would remain. Asking for $105 national registration and joining fee, PLUS whatever additional fees your council added PLUS unit fees, scares off families real fast. Some council that is over $150. And that doesn't cover uniforms and activities.

THEN poor program, and lack of leaders takes effect.

I do agree that poor recruitment, specifically the inability to conduct round ups, and poor community relationships, i.e. the professionals have no clue who the superintendent is and other community leaders who could get you in the schools,  is a problem.

23 minutes ago, Tron said:

Your council has it. The question is does your registrar know where it is and does your registrar have the intestinal fortitude to work with you to find it.

Yes she knew what happened to them. Some got lost in moving HQ locations. The bulk thrown away when the storage unit they were in had water damage.  I knew about the lost records as it happened before my time. The water damaged ones happened while I was gone.

My council is now using records laws to keep stuff the legally required time. Then it is destroyed. I am told a lot of councils have been doing this