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Posts posted by Longhaired_Mac

  1. Baden-Powell understood some Scouts did not learn well from simple verbal instruction or even from demonstration. And hands on repetition practices do not always teach skills enough for it to "stick." Early on B-P had Scouts doing skits as another way of learning skills and communications. Skits might  be "campy" or "corny" but when everyone is laughing at everyone it takes a lot of anxiety out of the situation for many of the cubs and some of the adults as well. If you and your son have a different sense of humor that's ok, much humor comes from "tribal knowledge" or environment. But you shouldn't exclude yourself from the camp. Plan for it next time, there are so many skits online and in books, find a teaching skit or something more involved for your group and practice it, be prepared for the next campfire. Maybe your example will raise the bar for the others, or at least add some contrast to the others types of skits. Just remember to keep it entertaining somehow or it's just going to be a chit -chat session in the seats.

    • Upvote 1

  2. We have done basic build activity for reggattas, space, and pinewood derby's during den meetings to help avoid these kind of issues.

    For the derby cars we will have the cubs design or draw their desired shape on their pine blocks at a den meeting. 1 or two of the dad's will take the stock and cut out the shapes for everyone and then the cubs get their cutouts back the next den meeting. This puts everyone on the same footing as far as access to power tools or parents with woodworking experience. It also makes "competitive" parents happy to have the job of cutting all the cars out. And it keeps them from taking over for their cubs.

    The committee sets specific rules about axles each race and it goes out in an email from scoutbook. Either all the cars can have straight axles, or sometimes they allow bent axles (rail riders). Paint is done at a den meeting so we know all the cubs have access to painting supplies. Wheels and axles are done at home. None of the car activities take up much time in the den meetings themselves except for the painting. What sanding or fine shaping they do at home with or by dad usually has minimal effect on the outcomes.

    We have a rule that all weights have to be attached 1 inch in front of the back wheels if it's needed to "make weight." Basicly we incorporate or exclude "tricks" when they are known to help win races so everyone has a fair shake. We have it decided and ready when the cubs get their kits, so well ahead of time.

    Now no system is perfect, and if a parent really wants to build the car on thier own at home we don't say no. But  honestly most super competitive parents that do everything for their kids tend to be target focused and usually miss THE race, and only get to run their cars socially at a rally or recruiting nights. So it all works out.

    We have had "parent" races. We've had ridiculous fast cars and amazing show cars from those events but they tend to be at blue and gold dinners or for county fair exhibitions. Not at the same time as the cubs.


  3. whining:

    present participle:

        complain in a feeble or petulant way

    That's all I hear out of these conversations about girls in scouts anymore. Whining. Parents and leaders do a lot for scouting but the lack of actual scouts and the funds derived from them dictate the programs and events quality and even longevity more than anything else. So while recruiting may initially go up and give us a lift, it's doubtful Scout retention is going to remain up or down significantly with the adding of girls. Fact is when boys get to a certain age they stop coming to Scouts. The younger ones start "feeling their Oates" and rebel against most anything that resembles responsibility or authority. For older boys it's a job, to earn money to go on dates. Cars, to go on dates. And....Dates. Those aren't the only reasons of course but they probably account for the majority of those who walk away from Scouts. And when the girls are in the same situation they are going to do similarly. Nothing is going to change those social and biological factors. 4% of Scouts make it to Eagle. Girls Scouts equivalent rank to Eagle is the Gold Award and only 5% of the girls earn it. That speaks to the fact that some individuals, boy or girl, will have the drive and desire to set goals and succeed and others won't no matter how much family or SM's push. Period. No amount of scapegoating about possible changes to requirements to placate "female interests" or the ruination of a "boys experience" will change that.


    National's decision has been made, so accept it and learn how best to move forward. Or quit Scouts and join a different youth group of which there are hundreds if not thousands in the US. Watch out though, most of them are Co-Ed as well.

    • Downvote 1

  4. I'm not in your area or situation and only know/understand what's been recounted here. Your choices and lifestyle are your own. Who you date is entirely your business. But the bottom line is most any CM would be responsible and reasonable to error on the side of safety for all the kids. Whether from their own judgement or Parent complaint or Committee directive the CM made a decision and communicated it to you.

    On 4/4/2018 at 4:53 PM, scoutmom86 said:

    All we wanted to to was attend the days activities as a family and leave at lights out. We didn’t want to set up a meth lab in our tent. Geezzz.... 

    On 5/27/2018 at 5:05 AM, bearess said:

    I also think you are forgetting how quick this all is.  I don’t know when the conviction occurred, but he’s not even off probation.  You’ve been together less than a year.  I don’t know when his marriage ended, but he has a two year old daughter.  In ten years, nobody will think a thing of this.  Right now, it’s still very fresh.  Be patient.

    Now scouter and leadership role aside, this is my thoughts as a concerned parent and honest reaction. Bearess is pointing out something important here. Your timeline of events for your boyfriend is rather quick paced. There is a lot of personal activity going on in relatively short period there that would have me personally question having my child around your boyfriend regardless of a felony conviction. I'm not saying your life has any, but I see a lot of potential for some Springer style drama that as a parent I wouldn't want my son exposed to. To much seemingly forced family making. Add a recent felony conviction and the eyes in the back of my head usually reserved for my son would be lasered in on your boyfriend any time he was around. It may be judgemental and unfair but it's very appropriate in regards to protecting my son. Maybe over time, working with your boyfriend at different events, gaining first hand knowledge of who he is, and trying to live by the Scout law I'd learn to trust him.

    Now everyone's "normal" is different and what is normal for you and allows you to build trust is not going to be the same for those who have a differing "normal". Some may trust easier, others not so much. But if he isn't going to comply with the CM request and make himself available at other events with you for Pack Parents or leaders to build any trust with him, nothing will change. If he is holding a grudge and is going to show the Pack whats what when his son is a Lion then he's in scouting for the wrong reason and I still wouldn't want him interacting with my son's den. I have long hair and have had it for 20 years....and every time I walk into a church, or my son's teacher conferences, or scouting events I feel the odd disapproving eyes on me and get the snipey sarcastic comments from people. And I smile, get over it and move on because my hair is none of their business. If you want your boyfriend involved for your son's sake then tell him to get over himself and go to what events he can.

    On 5/27/2018 at 7:51 AM, scoutmom86 said:

     Nor did I ever have intentions of leaving him alone at an event with his “nonchildren”.

    It's for your son so I assume you would be there anyway, so it won't be that difficult to keep your boyfriend near. Jump through the hoops. all 1,000 of them if that's what's required. Because it's for your son.

  5. 9 hours ago, malraux said:

    This sounds like someone way back had a cute idea that got formalized for no good reason.


    8 hours ago, AVTech said:

    not force attendance by tying advancement to it.

    My thoughts are that someone along the way made a knee-jerk reply to a Scout to get them to go do more outings, and on second thought believed it was a very good idea after all. Idea became policy, policy becomes tradition, tradition becomes law. Now the current SM may or may not know where and when it started but believes it's how to meet his responsibilities. Armchair psychology says if you  press the SM on it he will definitely go on the defensive because, as happens with many of us, he's locked in to a single way of doing things because it has worked so far. If thinking differently about it or some kind of action is required then people can get in a huff.

    So it comes down to how do you approach the SM on the subject. Honestly I don't think it's your turn to do that just yet unless you really really feel something sketchy is going on. Instead have your son go over his requirements to ensure they are done, then have him approach the subject with the SM. Let him make his own case, explaining he's met the requirements, that he can't attend the next few camp-outs, and if he really needs to press it...that he's read that SM conferences aren't required to be at camp-outs. Hopefully the SM will move forward with the conference or explain himself better. BUT if he doesn't do either then he has at least heard it more than once before you approach him about it. It's not going to be a surprise to him and hopefully he can account for his choice better to you without being defensive. Hopefully. SMC's are some of the first time when Scouts speak to adults as relatively equals. Your son standing up for himself could be as telling as the SMC anyway.

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  6. Our District is doing a membership drive in Sept where multiple Units will be displaying crafts and skills. Our area has a great turnout for the youth building at our County Fair each year as well. Think my son made $18 last year for blue ribbon premiums. Our Blue and Gold is another good time to show off whats been made over the year. Don't have any pics as I stay pretty busy during events.

  7. I don't know the details as I haven't seen the article, but...get ready for it...When I was in Scouts I constantly heard the SM and ASM reminding, warning, and generally nagging the older Scouts to get to work, to pay attention to their time qualifications. I was a fairly timid kid and this stressed me out. I was always looking ahead...admittedly I was not the most organized person but I tried to stay on top of things as best I could. Eventually I got my Eagle at 16 and was pretty proud of myself. Having low self-esteem most of those teen years, I felt if I could do it then surely anyone else could. And I had little patience for the older boys whining about how they didn't know what to do or they weren't going to make it. At summer camp when I met my first LDS troop they had a 14 and a 15 year old Eagle. Took me down a peg and really just blew me away. Sometimes it's the individual, sometimes it's the family or troop, but somewhere in the mix you have to have some drive to push past "good enough" and to soar.

    Cubs have a new book for each rank, Scouts only 1 and all the requirements are in it. Nothing hidden from lower ranks. Disappointment sucks. Rules are rules. He did the work, National made a decision, he is copacetic about it. I'm certain time-management will be at the front of his mind for awhile. But from here out, if he can get that much work done in such a short time I'd want him in OA. That kind of work ethic he could do a lot for the Lodge, maybe earn Vigil before he aged out. Or even after serving as an adviser.

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  8. I apologize for suggesting a course of action that circumvents appropriate protocol. Obviously I'm ignorant of the Committee side of things and therefore shouldn't have put those 2 cents worth out there.

  9. On 7/6/2018 at 12:22 PM, Redman said:

    This is what she posted as to why we couldn't have a meeting without her:

    The pack committee chair leads the pack committee and thus is responsible for the administration, oversight, and support of the pack program. The pack committee chair’s role is to

    • Maintain a close relationship with the chartered organization representative and the chartered organization to cultivate harmonious relations and maintain communications.
    • Confer with the Cubmaster on policy matters relating to Cub Scouting and the chartered organization.
    • Supervise pack committee operation by
      • Calling and presiding at pack leaders’ meetings.
      • Assigning duties to committee members.
      • Planning for pack charter review, roundup, and reregistration.
      • Approving bills before payment by the pack treasurer.
    • Conduct the annual pack program planning conference and pack leaders’ meetings


    Which yes it says the CC presides over meetings but it doesn't say we cant have a meeting without her either.....

    My 2¢ and nothing more.

    That is a list of the Chairs responsibilities or "Job description" which is not the same as "Administrative Powers or Rights." That said, the simplest way to deal with the problem is to call a committee/parent meeting and vote for a new Chair person, with an explanation why it's needed, and at least 1 person that is for sure willing to take on the work load. Have the vote and see if the grass is greener however it ends up. Your Council might act as a diplomatic go-between if a problem can be pinned down and addressed but more likely will leave the Packs Business to the Pack to deal with. UNLESS it becomes really disruptive and more adults are "Butt-Hurt" than the kids are benefiting from the program.

  10. Just a quick note on a conservation idea that's super easy. Mason Bees are very important pollinators and making little houses or Bee Hotels can be quick, easy, and fun even for Lion Dens. You can make them out of old bird houses falling apart, scrap lumbar, or a cleaned up tin can, some rolled up scrap paper, or old garden bamboo canes. The links below give good basic info on why and on how to do it but there are many more ideas on Pinterest. Painting is always the funnest part for the kids.



    / d22ff51c71c410595e1baa5568531442.jpg.d6f2198f3af60ad2fd89f57f6235ab64.jpg2decc8d11a124e19fc76e265219f05db.jpg.c5996eca564c8e71b5de926070b7bdbd.jpga52a928461489b8329c4649a1452a71c.jpg.a956b9c62c1a6968629564d6853b5e2c.jpg

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  11. I don't know the particulars but your Council may be limiting you because they can't afford it anymore than your Pack can. Our pack is spearheading a committee for a membership drive in Sept, "Rally in the Valley". We asked Scouters and parents to send in pics from different events and used them to develop our own personalized flier. A parent from our Pack is also translating a Spanish copy for a second flier. We were able to find a local company to donate the paper and printing. Have you asked your committee members or current scout parents what help they might be able to provide? If a business won't cover your printing then perhaps a couple of parents work in places where they are allowed to print for personal use as well as work. With 600 you want to make sure to split that up so it doesn't become a burden to one person.

    You may want to investigate to see if there is a process you need to follow to get into your schools. Our local Exec had to go before at least 2 school boards to get permission to have our fliers distributed to kids in class. And even with that permission the individual Principals of the various schools can still veto or "lose" fliers. So we are making appointments to visit with the principals to discuss the event and if they won't help we thank them for their time and save the fliers for elsewhere. The generic posters and fliers the council has for us are being saved for Library's and other public spaces as semi-permanent advertising. That might be the best use of yours as well.

    Class B uniforms in the class on Den meeting or Pack meeting days are great ways to get kids involved too. We actually discussed making some "craft/work" shirts to wear over the uniforms to keep them clean during the meetings but in the end we found our local Scout Office's "trading Post" had many t-shirts on sale from past summer camps or other events. For a $1 a piece the pack bought each of the scouts a Scouting t-shirt to change in to or wear over uniform shirts to stay clean AND can be worn to school without risking Class A uniforms to recces adventures. You might want to check with your local Trading Post or Scout store if you have one and see if you can't do something similar. If all your kids are matching at school it's going to create questions in the other kids which leads to questions about joining up.

    And then there is always public announcements on radio stations and local TV. Even if the ads aren't during "Prime time" the information will still go out, and on their websites. And Facebook pages, which can then be shared outrageously by Pack members so friends and family see it. A $5 a month paid advert on Facebook for your Pack FB Page (which is as much a recruiting tool as a way to share Pack events & calendar) is well spent priming parents and kids before school even starts.

    A little Googling of "Advertising for Small Non-Profits" will probably bring up some great tips for you as well.

  12. On 4/19/2018 at 3:56 PM, hikeoholic said:

    My scoutmaster always said if your scout book did not fall apart you were not reading it enough. 

    My old scout book might have had a bent corner or 2 but basically it was a fresh and clean, rarely cracked open...door stop or bookshelf end. My Field Guide was another matter. I think I had three copies before I was 15. I read and reread it at various stages of my scouting experience. Still have the last one I bought but it needs some serious help.

  13. I have to admit I haven't been back in Scouting for long so while I've paid my dues and have the new lodge flap sewn on my pocket, I haven't worn my OA sash in over 20 years, I don't even know if it would fit around me (joking....maybe not joking.) I have spotted a few Arrowmen with their sashes tucked into their belt at events or in online pictures. My first reaction was that I rather liked it. I attend at least 1 Pow Wow a year to watch the dancing competitions and pick over the bone carvings, beads, etc. So I frequently see full regalia dancers with traditional wampum belts slung over their shoulders in different fashions AND hung from their belts the same way OA sashes are being done. As I said before, I liked the look of the OA sashes on the belt when not in use and probably for the very reason of the similarity to what I've seen at Pow Wows.

    With that said, Uniforms are what set us out from the rest of the crowd as Scouts. They are utilized by military branches, union members, priests, schools, and many other groups. Frequently out of necessity and safety standards as much as identification or decoration. Uniforms have built into them as much societal tradition or tribal knowledge as any of our other traditions and those all got started some how. All traditions have been adjusted, butchered, and outright stolen. Far to quickly the new ways become the old ways as time marches on. For now the rule book says the Arrowmen can't wear the sashes on the belt but that may change. If you don't like the rule then be that change. It's a relatively free Republic, you can start a writing campaign and try to get it changed. Another way to introduce sashes on the belt might be something like regulating it to only times of wearing regalia and only if the sash is beaded or in a Wampum style. Document private examples to be submitted to National for consideration. Leaders need to know how to change things the right way within the realm of group expectations and regulation and not just recognize the change is needed.

    Just an example of why we follow uniform rules. I'm not much of a football person and if Pastor Tim really wants to have his old beat up Lincoln to be decked out with Kansas City Chiefs seat covers and license plate holder in a big Seattle Seahawk town that's his choice and right. But if he wears a Chiefs sweater or jersey on every football Sunday during Services instead of his suit and tie...well it's still his choice and right, but it would be considered inappropriate and poor taste by many church goers...and non-church goers alike. And Pastor Tim doesn't even have a SOP or dress code written for him, only societal or congregational expectations. Some will say there is a big difference between the 2 issues and there is. Pastor Tim doesn't have a set and printed dress-code rule and we Arrowmen do. Full disclosure, the pastor has Kansas city memorabilia but never wore a jersey during services that I know of...where anyone could see anyway.  So for now, be a good Scout, a good Arrowman. Follow the rules as to how, where, and when to wear your sash, and lead others in your example. 

    P.S. I found a beading info-graph online quick enough and modified it to show my take on a possibility of what to wear with regalia:

    33a017f55c3bafc34d625eb95a2c2f18.jpg.140bf8c1beb503db0466ea3fd1655586.jpg      399295912_OAsashWampumstyle1.jpg.4757f8c9eba7c2c33cac2250ab0c7a22.jpg


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  14. This is just so disappointing. I realize that 8 out of 1,000 or more boys is a small number but that's about 7 more than I thought would show such a lack of integrity. I looked the subject up on YouTube to see if there was any news reports broad cast on it. The search field had 8 scouts caught with pot in Scotland. Nothing to be seen. FYI, Pot and Girl Scout cookies are evidently a thing. A big thing. Who knew? Sounds like an easy joke to make at the GS expense but that's fair disappointment to me as well.

  15. I never knew of William Hillcourt growing up. Baden-Powell was the figurehead held up to us as Cubs and Scouts but most anything about him went in one ear and out the other of my self-centered teen-aged brain. Now the lives of Lord Baden-Powell and William Hillcourt are absolutely fascinating to me. Dedicating their lives to scouting, to the betterment of society from the ground up. There was a Scouter who had much the same brilliant impact on me as a Cub and then a Scout, and eventually sat across the table from me at my Eagle Board of Review. Jim McKellar, known to all in the local Scouting community as Grandpa Mac.

    He dedicated himself to the Boy Scouts of America under Troop #1 of Cashmere from his twelfth birthday on April 15, 1921, to his death on January 3, 1998. During this time he was the First Eagle Scout of Troop 1 in Cashmere, WA in 1929 and went on to receive the Lifetime Achievement Award in Scouting. He helped build the Cashmere Scout Building, established Scout Troops, trained Scoutmasters, and served on the board of Troop #1 for more than two decades. His writings have appeared in Boys Life and other well-known scouting magazines.

    “Grandpa Mac” lived by the words that he carried on a card in his pocket: “A hundred years from now I will not matter what my bank account was, the cost of the house that I lived in, or the kind of car I drove, but that the world may be different because I was important in the life of a child.” A Quote many of you will recognize from Forest Witcraft, another great Scouter. Well it's only 27 years since I earned my Eagle and only 20 years since Jim passed, but his examples still live on in my memories and my approach to Scouting.

    Something else I recall about Grandpa Mac. If a Cub or Scout so much as looked in his direction at a meeting or jamboree, he would dole out this bit of string he kept in his pants-pocket and would give it a flick, tying it in a simple overhand knot with one hand. Then he would challenge the scouts to give it a try. Rarely would their whipping and slashing of the air produce much more than a gentle grin from Grandpa Mac. I've been practicing recently with a bit of paracord, still haven't managed it but a time or two...by accident.

    Grandpa Mac1.jpg

    Grandpa Mac2.jpg

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    • Upvote 1

  16. Our Pack decided to be proactive with girls. We invited any sibling and prospective girl cubs to our day camp in June and had a fair turn out for the Bear aged group. 1 of the girl "dens" at the day camp out did all the boys in archery and BB guns, which proved to be a very positive recruiting point. We also did a 3-day Pack/family camp-out in July and again had a surprising turnout. Not tons of girls but a good showing.

    So far our Charter Organization, the American Legion, seem pretty ok with the situation. We've already lined up necessary female adult leadership counterparts and are set for the fall as a co-ed Pack. In Sept we are planning a District membership drive, kind of a mini jamboree, with 3 Packs and 4 troops we hope. Some of the focus will be on recruiting girls specifically. We already have 3 radio stations in town who will be broadcasting a Public Announcement for us, and our small local tv station will be doing something similar as well. The District was going to pay for a newspaper advert but it looks like our Pack will end up paying for that.

    We did have a few girls meltdown during our Raingutter Regatta races and there was a bit of uncertainty from the male leaders how to deal with it. But it got figured out and in fairness about a 3rd of the boys got just as upset when they lost. In the end everyone got to race. And eat popcorn. No hard feeling at all.

    Our Cubmaster and his wife have really taken this on, helping form a multi-pack committee, and are leading the charge. Our District Exe is brand new and spent some of the summer out of country on vacation so he has maybe a month in town. Not sure what help we are getting there. If he's on board or if he is playing catch-up with our CM or if he has other plans...I'm not sure.

    Just hope once school starts that the weekly meetings continue to be as harmonious as our monthly events through the summer have been.

  17. 8 hours ago, SSScout said:

    Teach'em the proper word for an "archery lover"  ::  TOXOPHILITE   all Cubs love a fancy word to use.   I always had that on the entrance to the Archery Range:   


    Our summer day camp for the cubs this year had a C.S.I. theme. All the Staff and Junior staff wore shirts stating, "___________ology, (noun) The study of..."

    And we were all asked to fill in the blank with a sharpie. Many didn't pay attention and just wrote their names on the blank. I of course being in charge of the archery range had Toxology.

    Which continued to be confused with Toxicology, but I still got to educate a few cubs and Scouters.

  18. I know this is an older posting but just in case it comes around again.

    Your Council should have BSA Range Officer training available at some point during the year. You might find they give you better vernacular to teach cubs about archery. USA Archery I is basic but it does tend to focus the training on kids going into JOAD. Kids with focus and maturity by nature or that are just a bit older (Webelos or Tenderfoot ages at least) that can handle more technical ideas and language.  Of course it never hurts to double up on the training and USA Archery/NFAA's SafeSport training is similar to BSA's online Youth Protection, just 3 times longer. National Archery in the Schools Program (NASP) can be a good resource for teaching ideas as well.

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  19. I'm not up to date on official positions on this matter but when I did my project back in the day National had made a point of preference. They preferred the projects be of service, implying work, so that no one could make the claim that a boys family bought him his Eagle. Yes realistically you have to raise funds for supplies at times but similar to OA the project should be about service to the community. If your prospective Eagle needs money because he can't find suppliers that will donate materials then you are left with finding funds to purchase what is needed. And it's my understanding that begrudgingly National says it's ok.  But the focus still needs to be on the SERVICE project. How the scouts raise funds and the frustration of working within parameters set by others is just part of the learning. If the local council or district or troop leadership want to put limits on how the project gel's done, well that's unfortunate but the process of going around them or fighting them is going to be at least as consuming as trying to find alternate means of accumulating donations in the first place. I guess it comes down to what lessons the scouts need to learn. As far as crowd funding, when laws and fiances are being dealt with responsibly, there really shouldn't be a problem.

  20. I'm afraid I don't know the best course of action here but I can share my own experience.

    I'd not been involved with scouts for sometime other than buying popcorn or donating to eagle projects and such. A few years back I married a gal and her son was in cubs already. I started taking him to his meeting and easing into being involved as it was a very new dynamic to be on the parent side of things in scouts. For a while he chose to stop scouts and involve himself more in sports. When he started making rather poor choices I put my foot down and said back to scouts. I didn't know how to fix the problem but I figured Scouts couldn't hurt and maybe more one-on-one time with me would be beneficial too. By that time he was old enough to start with a troop. We shopped around, first with my old troop. Very disappointing venture there, it was closing within a year or so and only that long because they wanted to get the last 2 senior boys through their eagle projects. Then a troop that had it going on, lots of boys of various ages, the Lutheran church that held the charter supported the troop very well, and my step-son already knew a few boys from school.

    So here is where I freaked-out. I was taking him to meetings and hanging around when they asked for volunteers then out of no where my son tells everyone I was an Eagle and the best scout around. Being introverted this shot my embarrassment up a notch but I just smiled and waved it off. However, the SM who had been running this well oiled troop for nearly 15 years and well past his own boys tenure makes the grand statement that I should be the next Scout Master with all my experience and all the parents looked right at me. A very uncomfortable few minutes while they waited for my response and I remained a deer caught in the headlights. The SM paid his dues and someone has to let him escape eventually, But I felt on the spot and completely overwhelmed. There is a big difference in helping boys tie knots or keeping an eye on them if the SM leaves the room and knowing parents, encouraging scouts, and working council members. Little came from it as I divorced and even though I said I would continue to take my step-son to scouts he chose to quit. My involvement with the troop dwindlwed and stopped as well.

    Now I know Moms and Dads that are ready to go gung-ho for their kids in anyway and other parents want to be supportive of their kids, but I have seen plenty of parents step back when they feel like something is about to get dumped in their lap. Some people have the "Pilgrim's Zeal" from the get go and others need to mosey in at their own speed. When the different types mix it doesn't always go so well. For me I need to go one brick in a wall at a time and feel secure in what I'm doing, others are taking arm loads and figuring it out on the way. Timing and pace have always been key to preventing burnout but it can really be as important and help with recruiting parents as well.