Hedgehog

It's all about, the community, the vision that the older boys have, and what they would like to support. Here's how one might see this working.

 

Troop 7 is lucky to have 12 boys on average cross over each year and 7 boys (one from each class) quit and 3 age-out every year. So, among 11 to 15 year-olds, they have 50 boys organized into 4 patrols, and among the 16 and 17 year olds they have 13 boys for senior leadership including guides and instructors. Each patrol takes on about 3 crossovers. One to four troop guides take on the responsibility of keeping tabs on the crossovers for their first four months. They introduce the scouts to their PL and APL, ask them simple stuff like "Do you like your patrol?", "Are the leaders helping you?", and "Did you get that Scout rank yet?" "Would you like to be patrol leader some day?" "Do you need help with a uniform?" They follow-up with the PL to see if he's been able to teach the newbies some basics. They line up instructors, and maybe figure out some down time when the new boys are off patrol duty so they can troddle over to the parade field for some instruction. Or they line up a patrol with an instructor to get one patrol up to speed with a particular skill. They touch base with the SPL about how things are going.

 

By four months, everyone is in summer camp, and the guides can turn in their patches. Maybe one of them could keep the PoR just to make sure things are running smoothly and to be ready to welcome any new scouts who come along in the off-peak season.

 

In this framework, guides are not central to the well-being of the new scouts, the PLs are. But they are there to smooth out rough patches.

Sounds a lot like our troop.  The TG's are responsible for advancement of the new guys to First Class.  They work in conjunction with the PLs and APLs.  Our Troop Guides are typically the older scouts who have previously been PLs and APLs.

As for troop guides signing off on rank, that is a personal comment on the situation in my troop. Adults sign off on advancement. I don't like it, but I'm not the SM.

Are the boys authorized to sign off?  If they can, then encourage the boys to take charge.  If not, it's an issue to dicuss with the SM.

Our troop has a rule that any First Class Scout and above can sign off on requirements.  Well, sort of.  We've been scaling it back to just the PLs, APLs and TGs.  Those guys tend to be Star and above and tend to be more thorough in signing off.  Our SM signs off on Star, Life and Eagle requirements.  

Keep on keeping on. Like you, I'm an ASM. We both have realized we have to smartly pick and choose what battles to wage. Can't win everything all at once. Sounds like things are going in the right direction, so don't get discouraged.

As Robert Frost says, "we'e got miles to go before we sleep."  At least we've taken "the road less travelled."

My advice is to pick and choose the battles but to keep talking to the younger guys.  As they get older, they will believe in boy-led and know what it means.  Talk to their parents too.  Talk to the new ASMs as they join.  Get their buy in to the concept of the boys leading.  As time goes on, the majority of parents and ASMs will have bought into the concept and changes become easier.

Our Troop recently did a trip to Washington D.C.  A bunch of the guys were working on Citizenship in the Nation badge.  For my son, we took a trip to the Statute of Liberty and Ellis Island over the summer and he used that for his merit badge discussion.

For Citizenship in the Community, an orienteering or geocaching event in town would be a lot of fun.  You could follow that up with a movie night -- heck we all have a ton of microwave popcorn.  Heck, the boys can even camp out in someone's back yard.  Sounds like something fun for a Saturday in the summer.

For Citizenship in the World, we are fortunate enough to be able to go into New York to visit the U.N. and some of the diplomatic missions.  If you are close to D.C. you can visit foreign embassies or elswhere there are foreign consolates.foreign consolates in the U.S.  Spring/Summer 2015 [PDF]

I was assuming he meant these

http://www.511tactical.com/511-tactical-pants-mens-cotton.html

but I was wondering the same thing to make sure...

they have several styles that look great.

Just remember... Cotton is Rotten. 

Thanks for making a difference in the lives of the boys: 

“A hundred years from now it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove. But the world may be different, because I was important in the life of a boy.â€

Ever wonder where that came from?  

http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/12/11/forest-witcraft-quote-first-appeared-scouting-magazine/

It sounds like you are next in line.

 

...

 

Careful what you wish for.

 

That being said, it was a wonderful experience.

So that's what it means when the CC and current SM say "we've got plans for you..." 

Son decided to join Boy Scouts (I was travelling when he visited the Troop), I attended the first meeting in civilian clothes.  Got the tap on the shoulder and was asked, "Were's your uniform."  I responded, "I don't have a patch."  They responded, "We can easily fix that..."  Asked son what he thought about me being a leader, he said he hoped I'd do it.  From that point on, I had no choice but to "do my best..."

I know what I'm getting myself into and I'll be tapping the shoulders of others to help me -- both other adults and the boys that i've worked with over the past couple of years.

Most Scoutmasters got that responsibility through hard work supporting the previous Scoutmaster.

I was afraid that might be the case.  

There are a lot of options on scoutstuff including the classic canvas -http://www.scoutstuff.org/bsa/uniforms-insignia/mens/pants.html

I love the microfiber switchbacks.  i've used them at 95 degrees in the summer and in 18 degrees in the winter (with a base layer).  They work for the weekly meetings and (since they are not cotton) on outings.

I just learned this a few weeks ago from my SM specific teacher at U of Scouting.  I too wish I would have l=known it years ago.

 

I had a tax question come up the other day in my research for our troop bank account.  Some sources say that the troop should use the tax id of the CO (church)

But other things I read said taht we might want to get our own TID with the CO listed as the responsible party.

Told by CPA that then we would have to file a tax form.

Is that true?

and would there be benefit to getting our own number?

 

For informational trivia purposes only, of course....

Use the CO's tax ID.  Make your life easy, you don't want to be filing a tax return for the Troop.  The less time you spend on paperwork, the more time you spend outdoors.

One of my previous SM was audited by the IRS. He deducted the entire cost of the uniform. IRS didnt bat an eye at it. 

 

 

The pants and sock IMO are not suitable for everyday wear as they have the BSA logo on them. I also need them neat and tidy so everyday wear would wear them out. 

 

I think it all depends on the situation one is in. 

 

You could really argue that the shirt is an every day wear item. Ive seen people dress in weird everyday ways. Stuff I wouldnt wear everyday. 

 I would be cautious about this whole issue of the clothing.  There are a lot of specifics that probably not allow for such deductions.  Clergy for example can deduct the liturgical robes and such worn during the performance of his duties in a worship service, but he cannot take a deduction for a black suit and clergy shirt that is worn in the general public.

 

If that logic holds true, a scouter may be able to deduct O/A regalia if purchased, but not his full BSA uniform which can be worn in public.  Need to check the fine points on that issue very carefully.

Clothing is a judgment call.  I think the uniform shirt is clear -- most people wouldn't consider it suitable to wear at events other then scouting activities.  In fact, the use of the uniform outside of appropriate scout events or by non-scouts/scouters is prohibited -- http://www.scoutinsignia.com/celebs.htmI

I do wear the non-cotton switchbacks with the built-in belt for hiking and camping when I"m not with the scouts.  The probably are the best non-cotton switchbacks around because they don't fall down if you put stuff in your pockets.  With the exception of the plastic belt buckle, the pants are like any ohter pair of pants.  So for me, those are suitable for use outside of scouting.  Other than the BSA logo, the socks are like any other pair of socks and are suitable for use outside of scouting.  Again, just my opinion.  

@@Hedgehog and @@blw2 what matters most is trust. Full frontal assault or more subtle techniques matter, but not as much as whether you are trusted and respected. Does the SM and the CC trust that you understand what you are talking about? Are you a person that is in the fire with them, trying to make the Troop run?  Or an outside observer who snipes but does no work? I know the two of you are, but those are general sense questions.

 

Make ally's among adults, build a consensus. It's really hard. I don't trivialize that.

 

If a newcomer proposes changes, they're a troublemaker. If a long time volunteer proposes changes, they're doing their job.

 

​Sentinel947

You hit the nail on the head.  It is a matter of TRUST.  I joined the Troop after a stint as the Cubmaster for the Pack and knew a lot of the leaders from their time in Cub Scouts.  I also joined at a time when a number of leaders were on their way out because their son's were aging out.  I made myself helpful in supporting the new Scoutmaster by running the outdoor program and we both wanted the Troop to become more boy-led.  The parents of the boys from the Pack that crossed over with my son knew me as did the parents from the Pack that crossed over in the past three years.  Parents from other Packs learned to trust me because I knew the program and knew the outdoor skils (don't underestimate the level of trust it takes to send an 11 year old camping by themselves without a parent).  I've been preaching how wonderful boy-led is to the new parents and especially the new ASMs.  I can sincerely smile and say to a parent who arrives at the end of a meeting, "there is a certain beauty to the chaos of a boy-led troop."  As a result, I've been able to make the small changes.  The bigger changes, well, aren't bigger changes just a series of smaller changes put together?

Wish I'd known this years ago.

Don't feel bad, I just realized this yesterday after some research and I'm a tax attorney.  I did the math.  I drove over 2000 miles last year and spent around $250 for food and lodging (campsite fees) for outings.  Based on some quick math, that is probably $150 reduction in tax (assuming a 30% marginal tax rate).

 

I'm not a fan of foil meals

it's all in the folding technique.  Our guys have done hamburgers (veggies options) on an individual basis.  Actually, most of them cooked two at a time.  They were all done to perfection.

The adults and the boys often cook the veggies in foil.  A little water, a little butter, salt and pepper and some green beans or broccoli or carrots.  We also get heat and serve bread, take it out of the package, wrap it in foil and warm it on the edge of the coals.  That with some Dutch Oven Pasta (see post #11 above).

As we approach tax season, I thought I'd share some information on charitable deductions.  If you are a registered leader, you can deduct your mileage, tolls, food costs and lodging costs for Boy Scout trips as charitable contrbutions for outings where you function as a leader.  For mileage, you can take a deduction for 14 cents per mile.  For the other expenses, you can deduct what you actually paid.  You most likely can't deduct fees paid for activities such as canoing, kayaking, horseback riding, etc. because participating in that activity isn't a necessary part of being a leader.  Also, if you are reimbursed by the Troop, that amount would reduce your expenses.  My favorite line in the IRS publication is that the travel expenses are deductible even if you enjoy yourself -- not that any of us enjoy a weekend camping in the woods and eating from Dutch Ovens.

From IRS Publication 526 - https://www.irs.gov/uac/About-Publication-526 :

Car expenses. You can deduct as a charitable contribution any unreimbursed out-of-pocket expenses, such as the cost of gas and oil, directly related to the use of your car in giving services to a charitable organization. You can't deduct general repair and maintenance expenses, depreciation, registration fees, or the costs of tires or insurance.  If you don't want to deduct your actual expenses, you can use a standard mileage rate of 14 cents a mile to figure your contribution.  You can deduct parking fees and tolls whether you use your actual expenses or the standard mileage rate.  You must keep reliable written records of your car expenses. For more information, see Car expenses under Records To Keep, later.

Travel. Generally, you can claim a charitable contribution deduction for travel expenses necessarily incurred while you are away from home performing services for a charitable organization only if there is no significant element of personal pleasure, recreation, or vacation in the travel. This applies whether you pay the expenses directly or indirectly. You are paying the expenses  indirectly if you make a payment to the charitable organization and the organization pays for your travel expenses.  The deduction for travel expenses won't be denied simply because you enjoy providing services to the charitable organization. Even if you enjoy the trip, you can take a charitable contribution deduction for your travel expenses if you are on duty in a genuine and substantial sense throughout the trip. However, if you have only nominal duties, or if for significant parts of the trip you don't have any duties, you can't deduct your travel expenses.

Example 1. You are a troop leader for a tax-exempt youth group and you take the group on a camping trip. You are responsible for overseeing the setup of the camp and for providing adult supervision for other activities during the entire trip. You participate in the activities of the group and enjoy your time with them. You oversee the breaking of camp and you transport the group home. You can deduct your travel expenses.

***

Deductible travel expenses. These include:

·         Air, rail, and bus transportation,

·         Out of pocket expenses for your car,

·         Taxi fares or other costs of transportation between the airport or station and your hotel,

·         Lodging costs, and

·         The cost of meals.

As I'm a praticing tax lawyer, I need to say that this post is for informational purposes only and cannot be construed as tax advice regarding your specific situation.  Consult your lawyer, accountant, tax preparer or Cousin Vinnie if necessary.

Oh boy, I have already heard that chorus singing loud!  I only barely broached the topic so far once with the CC and a couple other committee members present... really just feeling it out about how much they have used the scouts in the past.... "Oh, no... we don't want to do that.  This is real money we're talking about!"

I've learned that front-on charges at windmills rarely work.  Rather, it is the quiet whispers to the scouts and leaders that slowly changes the nature of a Troop.

Also, the Committee Chair and Committee Members are the WORST people to approach.  Chances are they haven't been trained in what Boy-Led actually is.  It is even worse if they have been with the Troop for a while and think that what has been going on is perfectly fine.

So to summarize....

A POR needs to be a Troop Level position except for the Patrol Leader and Scoutmaster approved projects for non-Eagle ranks.

There can be multiple Troop Level positions for jobs such as Quartermaster, Instructor, Etc. based on the needs of the Troop.

The key is that the Scout actually takes responsibility.

Got it.

related to this, as I'm getting the treasurer responsibilities passed off to me, I learned that they currently tie event permission slips to the treasurer job.  Basically it' to make things a bit more streamlined since the treasurer is confirming that they paid, so they just note on the permission slips if the scout paid, or if it's coming out of their scout account. It makes a little sense but it's very adult involved

 

I was really tempted to just say no at the outset.  I'll take the payment, but I'm not going to wear the hat of the outdoor activity chair too!  But since that position is apparently vacant, and currently shared by several folks....

 

I figured I'd move forward in the spirit of cooperation but at the same time, I see that this is certainly a job that a scout could do and plan to push it back to the scouts

 

so perhaps a patrol scribe.  It's up to the scouts to decide if they want to do it that way, or just lat the PL do it, or someone else....

Step 1 - Have the boys (SPL / PLs ) pass out the permission slips and announce the outings.

Step 2 - Have the boys collect the permission slips and checks and make a list of who has a slip and who paid.

Step 3 - Have the boys give you the checks with a list of who is deducting payment from a scout account.

Step 4 - Verify what the boys give you (turning each check on their list to an X).  This provides a paper trail in case a scout says they turned in a check or permission slip and you don't have it.

Step 5 - Have the boys give the adult leader going on the outing the permission slips (we keep them with us on the outings)

It took our troop about 2 years to implement this proceedure.  Start off subtlely -- ask the SPL/PLs to do this as a favor to you the first time.  If you make it seem like it is a major change in the direction of the troop, people will question your sanity (tried that... it failed admist choruses of "you don't want boys handling checks").  If you do it once out of necessity and it works, you can do it a second time.  By the third or fourth time, people forget that the adults ever handled it.

@@John-in-KC and @Eagledad:

I'm honestly looking for an answer to my questions.

Can there be more than one Instructor in a Troop?  GTA seems to say yes.

Can there be more than one Quartermaster in a troop?

Can there be more than Troop Guide?

The only patrol level POR that counts is patrol leader.  If the scouts say they were XXX for the XXX patrol, it will often become an issue in their EBOR.  If a scout said he was the Eagle patrol quartermaster that coordinated the Eagle patrol needs to the troop quartermaster or the senior quartermaster, then even if you word smith it as "troop quartermaster assigned to the Eagle patrol", it will be an issue. 

 

As a BSA leader, we are guided by BSA's words.  I just get concerned when our practices don't match BSA's words. 

Fred:

The guide to advancement provides that some positions can be held by more than one member:

4.2.3.4.1 Positions Must Be Chosen From Among Those Listed. The position must be listed in the position of responsibility requirement shown in the most current edition of Boy Scout Requirements. Since more than one member may hold some positions—“instructor,†for example—it is expected that even very large units are able to provide sufficient opportunities within the list.

So in a troop with 50 scouts, what is the problem with having four Troop Guides, four Troop Scribes and four Troop Instructors or even four Troop Quartermasters? 

If the scout is doing the work, he gets the POR credit.  

Stosh:

We're on the same page.  There also is the "or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the unit" which could be any leadership position.

What is important is that the boys actually "serve" and not just "hold" a position of responsibility.  I've seen my son lead more on a patrol level and a troop level as an Assistant Patrol Leader than others with the Patrol Leader or SPL / ASPL badges.  

I've actually assembled a contingent of gear and supplies for various merit badges:

Maps -- I keep all the maps we use for hikes and can use them for camping, backpacking and hiking.

Chess Sets - For Christmas, my son and I each got quiver chess sets (with a silicone board) from House of Staunton to take on campouts and to use for the MB.

Cooking - I have a bunch of camp cookbooks as well as lots of bookmarked recipies from the internet.

Backpacking - Well, I use my own gear for show and tell as well as some gear I don't use anymore.

That being said, I can't say I've actually built anything for a merit badge class.

Advancement ... Be careful. ... Though it will rarely blow up as an issue as lower rank BORs are not audited; ... except patrol leader, ... patrol level PORs do not count for rank advancement.  I'd hate to see a scout sit before an EBOR and some POR question reveals it was a patrol POR instead of a troop POR.  It would be a stopping point.

Fred:

What are you basing your statement that patrol level PORs don't count?  As I read the list, a scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, bugler, instructor and Leave No Trace trainer don't have a "Troop" requirement as, for example, troop guide or troop webmaster:

Boy Scout troop. Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, Venture patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, bugler, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, instructor, troop Webmaster, or Leave No Trace trainer

 

Additionally, is there any prohibition against having a troop guide assigned to each patrol?  The scout would serve as a guide to their patrol.

The only patrol level position we have that we treat as NOT qualifying for advancement is the Assistant Patrol Leader who also serves as a Troop Guide.

Thoughsts?

Oops.  Second link:

http://www.amazon.com/Ultralight-Backpackin-Tips-Inexpensive-Lightweight/dp/0762763841/

I'm certainly no expert in that, but fairly recently read this book

http://andrewskurka.com/product/ultimate-hikers-gear-guide/

I fond it very interesting.  I recommend it.  I hope to be able to put some of his tips and experience to good use.

Surka's book is good.  I begin my lecture with a quote from him, "“Every backpacker should have gear, supplies, and skills that are appropriate for their objectives, as well as for the conditions they will likely encounter.† Two other great books are:

http://www.amazon.com/Lighten-Up-Complete-Ultralight-Backpacking/dp/0762737344

http://www.amazon.com/Ultralight-Backpackin-Tips-Inexpensive-Lightweight/dp/076276384

The illustrations are worth the price of the book.

For the first time in 20 years, I could say yes, and for the first time in 20 years I lugged 50 pounds of pack over a dozen miles of rough trails in the August sun, slept on the ground, ate reconstituted food, and loved every minute. What surprised me was how it all came back.

Welcome.  Do some research on lightweight / ultralight backpacking.  Your base weight (without food and water) should be between 20 to 25 pounds.  For a weekend, my pack is around 30 pounds with food and 2 litres of water.  For a six day, 50 miler, it was 45 (and should have been 5 pounds lighter) with food and water.  

My pack tends to be a bit heavier because I would cary a heavier load so my son would have a lighter load.  Now that he is almost 14, he's carrying his half.  Another two years and he can carry some of my gear.

I have a couple of page article I wrote on lightweight gear that I'd be glad to send to you.  I'm also in the process of updating the sample gear list which has links to what I think is the lightest equipement for a reasonable cost and would be glad to share that with you also.

As a tax attorney and having a wife who is our unit's treasurer, I understand Stosh's concerns.  

That being said, as long as you have the proper proceedures in place and follow those proceedures you don't have any personal risk.

Suggested proceedures:

1.  No receipt, no reimbursement.

2.  Keep track of all dues or outing payments and when they are deposited.  For example, if someone pays $100 in cash for their annual dues, mark that down and record when it is deposited in the account.  

3.  Don't keep petty cash.  All cash in goes to the bank all reimbursements are by check.

4.  Maintain a list of who paid.  Have a roster and check off who paid dues.  Have a roster for an outing and check off who paid for the outing.

5.  Get popcorn money when order is placed (don't sell on credit) and definately before popcorn is given to scout.

6.  Pay as many expenses by Troop check as possible -- camping fees, summer camp programs, etc.

7.  Ordinary expenses are reimbursed without SM or CC approval.  This would be food for campouts, supplies, awards, etc.

8.  Extraordinary expenses are only paid with SM or CC approval.  This would be troop gear and other large items.

9.  SM expense reimbursements are approved by CC

10.  ASM expense reimbursement are approved by SM or CC

11.  You husband's expenses as an ASM are approved by both SM and CC (clearly avoiding conflict of interest).

12.  Any checks issued to you are signed by someone else.

13.  Keep backup for every transaction in a binder.  If you don't have the paperwork, you don't write a check.

14.  Operate scout accounts in accordance with BSA guidelines.  There is another thread on this elsewhere.