SSF

On 8/14/2019 at 1:50 PM, SubSM said:

Nine years later:

I was thinking about this subject last weekend watching my niece's boys play a basketball tournament in their hometown. I watched as kids played their best and won some games and lost some games. They were excited to win, but not so happy when they lost. I also watched the parents react (in some cases very obnoxiously) to their kids paticipation. All I could think of was being in the woods trying to build a campfire, with no parents around. Noone to yell at the referee for a bad call; just wet wood, flint and steel. There is an honesty in having wet feet because a scout didn't bring boots for a rainy weekend, that can't be blamed on a third party. There is also compassion when another scout shares their fire to warm up the cold scout.

 

I have heard advertisements over and over about the benefits of youth sports on the radio. How kids learn leadership and teamwork etc. Many of these benefits can be found in scouting. 

Teamwork: Nothing helps build a team than having to get a fire going in order to cook your meal.

Leadership: The scouts are being led by one of their peers. 

Just curious what some of y'alls thoughts are.

Mike 

I appreciate where you're coming from but I do believe that scout parents can be just as aggressive and demanding - if not more so - than any sports parents ever could. 

In my own experience, as an Eagle Scout and as a parent of two Eagle Scouts who are both athletes, I have experienced some minor 'politics' in terms of their competing in sports, but that pales in comparison to the level of pettiness and egotism that I have seen displayed first hand by multiple scout leaders.

I've also heard too many similar accounts from other scout parents, as well as posts on this board, over how some troops choose to operate by adding requirements or using their own subjective, or judgmental, biases to deny rank advancement. 

I can only go by my own personal experience and I've only seen true pettiness and egotism in scouts, not in sports.

On 8/15/2019 at 8:27 AM, SubSM said:

I would agree that it should be an and, but that's tough to accomplish when sports requires attendance at practices in order to play in games. It's an idea that I totally understand, it's very difficult to just jump in and work as a team without everyone being equally prepared. The same is true with marching band, if I don't know my part or exactly where I am supposed to be it messes up everyone else.  The very same idea holds true for scouts, lack of attendance at meetings prevents the proper preparation necessary for a successful outing.

Sports/band are able to mandate participation, scouting is not. The question is then, why? What gives sports the 'authority' to mandate attendance?

 

Mike

PS. I am trying to think out loud here, not be argumentative. I appreciate everyone's feedback.

I'd beg to differ here. Scouts does very much mandate participation.

All troops do require a minimal level of participation to demonstrate that they are "active."

"Active participation" is loosely defined by the BSA intentionally so that units can determine what level of participation is required. Troops vary greatly in this. Some are very strict and demanding of meeting attendance and camping participation, whereas others are more lax, but scouts who fall short of their troop's participation standards do not get the opportunity to advance, just like an athlete who does not attend practice regularly will not have the opportunity to play.

On 8/14/2019 at 6:11 PM, Jameson76 said:

Good reading

https://www.nuvo.net/voices/guestvoices/your-kid-and-my-kid-are-not-playing-in-the/article_768c0500-0f5b-5b63-961d-b2be73b3d7f3.html

 

 

This is a very anti-sports article and many of the criticisms can also be applied to scout parents as easily as they could to sports parents

11 hours ago, Liz said:

If anything, having gone through all it takes to become an Eagle Scout, he should have known better even moreso than other boys his age. 

I would be more inclined to hold him MORE accountable, not less.

So you feel there should be separate standards of justice?

5 minutes ago, qwazse said:

13 activities in three months? Packed? We knocked out about 12 in as many months. It just depends on who needs to do service projects.

Let's see a throw-down!!!! @SSF's tenderfoot scouts vs. @willray's!

Our unit and the others in my area that I'm familiar with just aren't as active as others I guess...I'm still amazed by the unit that holds an outdoor aquatics event in March 

You'll have to add your own scouts to the throw-down as well...I'd just hope that we could have fair and unbiased judging

14 minutes ago, Navybone said:

Two reason I look at this differently.

1.  A scout is trustworthy - if she did not meet the requirements, she is obviously not meeting the intend, standards, and ideals of scouting. 

2.  Part of the rule of law that we teach scouts is innocent until proven guilty.  

The onus is not on her to prove you wrong, she only has to make her case to her troop and her council.   

I've never heard of the "rule of law" being applied to BSA advancement. 

You sound like a criminal defense attorney, defending a guilty client

5 hours ago, willray said:

We will bend over backwards to make opportunities available for our scouts, and we do - our girls troop is focused on advancement, we're doing everything possible to put advancement opportunities in front of them, and with that focus, we've got probably 40% of them pushing Tenderfoot at this point.

So, you're doing everything possible to ensure that these girls advance quickly. Are the girls being tested? Are they actually learning the skills?

8 hours ago, Tatung42 said:

A bit of a bragging post here, but I just reviewed my son's scout calendar for the past 3 months.

Feb 9: Helped run ex-pack's pinewood derby with other members of his troop
(Outdoors) Feb 10: Patrol day hike
(Outdoors and Overnight) Feb 22-24: Troop snow campout
(Outdoors) Mar 2: Scouting for food service project (fliering)
(Outdoors) Mar 3: District aquatics day
(Outdoors) Mar 9 morning: Scouting for food service project (food pickup)
Mar 9 evening: Troop fundraising project (setting up, serving food, and cleanup for retired teacher's dinner)
Mar 16: 8-hour Red Cross FA/CPR training (technically not a troop/patrol event - but was done in preparation for high adventure trek this summer)
Mar 17: Attended ex-pack's blue and gold ceremony (did crossover ceremony for new scouts)
(Outdoors and Overnight) Mar 22-24: Troop new scout campout
(Outdoors) Mar 31: Troop day hike
(Outdoors and Overnight) April 5-7: District camporee
April 13: Staff meeting for Troop ILST
April 14: Troop ILST
April 20: Attended Eagle court of honor
(Outdoors and Overnight) May 4-5: Troop campout

These activities were all in addition to regularly scheduled troop or patrol meetings.  And he was not even trying to rush to first class.  He actually missed one troop activity in February when he attended a church event instead.

That's an incredibly packed schedule. Your son's unit seems to be the exception. Back to back day hikes in addition to camping trips. Definitely a very full calendar.

You listed the district's aquatics day as an outdoor activity in March though...did you list that as an outdoor activity by mistake? I'm presuming that was done at an indoor pool.

9 hours ago, Treflienne said:

Not so hard:   3 camping overnights,   3 local day hikes,  and four other things:  (help with scout recruiting night?  do ILST?  help with the spring cleanup at the CO? one more? )  And while the girl reaching 1st class has to do all of them,  its not required to pick a day when the entire troop can go.   Get half or more of your patrol and two willing adults (different ones for different activities) and you are all set.   One overnight and two other Saturday mornings per month.

Yes, it's possible, but IMHO, this would be an extremely ambitious for most scouts, and unless this girl is solely involved in scouting without any other extracurriculars, part time job, etc. then that would also pose some challenges to actually completing these without a tail wind in her favor.

10 hours ago, Navybone said:

The success and meaning of the Eagle Scout is based on the integrity of the system.  And there are many posts in the thread that doubt that a girl was able to do what was required in such a quick time, despite lack of evidence to the contrary.   I have to wonder if it is based on concern for the integrity of scouting, or simply continued angst and disagreement with the decision to allow females in scouts.  

If it is the former and short cuts are made, than BSA leadership needs to step up and ensure the process and system remains solid.  If it is the latter, the only results of their efforts will be to further damage the reputation of scouting and Eagle Scout, which I hope is not their intent.   

Who is the "their" that you're referring to? BSA or people opposed to girls in Boy Scouts.

Yes, this girl supposedly completed these requirements in very quick time, as you admit. Does it not strike you as odd that girls are racing towards advancement so rapidly?

Correct we have no evidence that she did not complete the requirements properly. We also have no evidence to indicate that she actually did. All of this stems from the girl posting on social media. 

If I were a gambler, I'd wager that some shortcuts were taken.

I can't fathom how any unit could hold ten events, six of which must be outdoor events or camping trips, within a three months span. What unit is that active...???

I don't see how anyone could have realistically met that particular requirement between 2/1 and 5/04.

It is possible for her to have achieved this under advancement guidelines, but realistically, the probability of any scout actually doing this is extremely low.

If this girl actually did what she has claimed, I have no doubt that requirements were either overlooked, held to a ridiculously low standard, or her leaders may have allowed her to double-dip, or even triple-dip.

33 minutes ago, qwazse said:

This happens from time to time. Somebody not being allowed to hold their talking stick when and where they want to.

@SSF Why don't you start your own topic of Abysmal Examples of Scouts BSA for Girls? That way you can have the moderators ding everyone who posts something positive. Then those folks can claim foul about being manipulated by elites.

@Cburkhardt, you have gone to some lengths to reply to everyone who hasn't proffered the responses that you'd like to see. That's nice. But I will note that it only intends to invite equally long off-topic aggrieved retorts. It kind of defeats your purpose.

We can still enjoy opposing views on this forum. But, going around raining on someone's parade is not the way to do it.

Nicely put qwazse, I really like this response!

52 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

Dear SSF:

This thread is focused on examples of positive program activities and outcomes of girl troops.  There are plenty of other threads where you can engage in advocacy against girl troops.  Because you have decided to leave the BSA, I wish you good luck in finding different civic activities and organizations better calculated to your preferences.  The rules of this blog are to allow OPs to focus content and your posts are destructive to that rule. 

You are clearly troubled by any criticism against girls in the BSA. I'm not sure why you keep responding, and with the same copied and pasted response no less. 

In my original post that got removed, I called out the absurdity that was highlighted in the shameful and biased, "Girl Power" 'reporting' from the article that cocomax shared. 

If you put something out there that others find objectionable, then someone is likely to let you know that. 

And, just for the record, this is not a blog. It's a forum. That's why it's called "Scouter Forum." 

3 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

Dear SSF:

This thread is focused on examples of positive activities and outcomes of girl troops.  There are plenty of other threads where you can engage in advocacy against girl troops.  Because you have decided to leave the BSA, I wish you good luck in finding different civic activities and organizations better calculated to your preferences.

I see that this message board continues to live in a bubble of 'we think.'

Only the views of the elites are allowed and anyone who disagrees is silenced. So much for the freedom to disagree on what is supposed to be an open forum. 

Cburkhardt I hope that your efforts to feminize the BSA fail, but as I said in my post that was removed, this war has already been lost. The real BSA is dead. Congratulations to you on your victory in contributing to that.

3 hours ago, PinkPajamas said:

I don't think its fair to say people cheated, if the rules were "give this ribbon to whoever you want for whatever reason you want". There are all kinds of conscious and unconscious biases that come in to play but that's not cheating. Under those rules handing a ribbon to a new patrol because you're excited they're there and trying is valid even if their performance is sub-par. 

Is this a common camporee scoring system? Is this how this particular camporee has been judged in the past? because it's terrible.... and sad if it took girls winning for people to realize it.

I would definitely encourage the boys to write a letter complaining about a scoring system that lacked measurable goals and Harry Potter style "100 points for Gryffindore!"  so my pet team wins. Have them suggest a better scoring system and vote with their feet if changes aren't made by the next camporee. 

I reacted too hastily in my previous response. (Bad SSF, bad!)

I do see that you condemn the scoring used and I presume that's where the upvotes come from. I agree that scouts and units should vote with their feet and avoid this camporee if biased judging of any form is going to be taking place.

3 hours ago, PinkPajamas said:

I don't think its fair to say people cheated, if the rules were "give this ribbon to whoever you want for whatever reason you want". There are all kinds of conscious and unconscious biases that come in to play but that's not cheating. 

I don't know if I'm more surprised by this comment you made or the fact that others actually support your position on this. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by either.

You've said that you believe its acceptable for judges to award competitors and determine order of finish (1st, 2nd, 3rd place etc.) irregardless of a patrol's actual performance...?

If the rules for this camporee did clearly state that's how judging was going to be conducted then you are technically correct and the girls did not cheat and the adults running the event were within their right to just give out awards to whoever they wanted to for no real valid reasons at all, but if that is the case then this camporee was a complete sham. I feel sorry for the boys, leaders and units that were duped by the organizers and planners of this "competition" who probably had a rightful expectation that all competitors would be judged fairly, evenly and without bias.

But, you believe that biases whether, conscious or unconscious, are acceptable...okay, got it. I will very much keep that in mind when a girl boy scout contacts me to work on a merit badge.

2 hours ago, PinkPajamas said:

Our Weblos girl den wipes the floor with the boys den

Keep talking like that and you'll be invited to be a judge at this camporee next year

3 hours ago, Liz said:

Has it occurred to anybody that many of these girls have been unofficially but actively involved in BSA alongside their brothers potentially for years? Some of them may have been heavily coached by older brothers to help them succeed, too.

Am I the only one whose kids were involved in a troop where younger sisters were an ever-present fixture at all the non-council events they could get to? If allowed to go to Campboree, these girls would have been learning alongside their brothers, coached by their brothers, and eager to finally get recognition for all the stuff they'd learned. Just two or three girls with this kind of experience would be enough to motivate and provide the expertise for the whole troop to do extremely well at Campboree. 

It's also entirely possible many of the other troops in this area really just need to step up their game. I haven't been to Campboree in my area yet, but from what I hear of the other adults talking, it sounds like there only a couple of truely competitive units and the rest of the troops just use it as a camping trip. Not at all like the Campborees my older kids competed in. 

And nobody said they swept the Campboree and won every prize. They said the girls made it into the "top three" for each competition, which means to me that other units took home a fair number of first place awards too. I'd wager there were probably only 3 or 4 units total who took all but a few of those competitions. 

The OP and planner of the camporee said the girls took home the top troop in the district award, which to me sounds like they won the camporee. 

It's a bit far fetched to say that the scout skills of girls who may have learned a few scout skills here or there, on the occasional sporadic basis from their brothers, is equivalent to the same focused and immersive instruction that the scouts themselves had been receiving. 

Again, the probability of inexperienced brand new scouts beating far more experienced scouts, with previous competition experience under their belts, is unlikely...possible yes, but probable...no.

6 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I just don't see the issue.  New patrols can very easily win a camporee competition ... if they prepare and are motivated.

The SM should always be inspiring and encouraging the scouts to grow.  But that's different than always setting the direction and the specifics.  The skill is knowing how much, how far and which direction.  Inspiring a four year patrol to win a camporee can often alienate scouts.  Camporee competitions are good for scouts in their first few years.  After that, it's a been-there-done-that situation.  So then we look for the next growth opportunity.  

Adult leaders need to constantly adjust.  Adjust to the scouts.  Adjust to the situations.  Adjust to find new ways to inspire and help the scout stretch and grow and have a good experience.

Fred, it is true that a brand new patrol of new scouts (all Scout or Tenderfoot presumably) could potentially win a camporee over vastly more experienced scouts (1C, Star, Life, Eagle) who have competed previously in multiple camporees and klondikes, but the odds and probability of them actually doing that without some outside assistance is relatively slim. 

I myself have personally witnessed biased judging at camporees, so I know first hand that it exists and I could easily foresee pro-girl judges, being more lenient and generous in their scoring of the girl patrols. The fact that the planner of this camporee has also expressed great glee in the girl's victory, raises questions as to whether or not the judging was truly objective and unbiased.  

I would wager that there was a pre-conceived plan to ensure that all of the girl patrols had a very positive experience at this camporee. The BSA could not really afford to have brand new girl units go to a competition, get beaten, get discouraged and decide that they wanted to quit...that would not fit the narrative that the BSA is trying to sell about girls in the boy scouts.

6 hours ago, Sablanck said:

I had a girl troop last weekend at the camporee I was a planner for.  They were full uniformed, excellent attitudes and were within the top three scores on every event.  They also knocked it out of the park on the other optional point items and took home top troop of the district for the event.  Definitely a big thumbs up from me on girls in scouting.

So a group of girls who are all brand new to the BSA outperformed boys, many of whom  presume, have been in scouts for a number of years, but the brand new girls still outperformed the more experienced boys for the top district award...interesting. 

I'm presuming that there was a judges meeting before the competition. Did you, as planner inform the judges beforehand that you wanted to ensure that the girls would not be judged unfairly?

We have to bear in mind that judging for many camporee or klondike events is heavily subjective. Going a step further biased judging is also not uncommon. My troop had for many years attended a camporee that every year was won by a different patrol but always from the host troop; every single year. For our troop this camporee was not really about winning but more so about the experience. We always took it with a grain of salt that we knew in advance who was going to win and figured that most of the other troops had a similar approach and mindset to it. 

Homesickness at summer camp for most scouts wears off by the second or third day. Homesickness also lessens once they become occupied with their activities and the boys begin to bond and mesh as a group. IMHO, that's really the greatest thing about summer camp. No other time of the year (except for possibly High Adventure outings) allows for that same level of building camaraderie and brotherhood.

Again, the vast majority of kids who do experience homesickness do adjust in the first few days, and then do just fine, but there are more extreme cases.

A few years ago, there was a second year scout in our troop who went as far as to actually stop eating, or eat very little, in order to make himself sick with the hope that his parents would be forced to come and get him. I don't remember if he had gone to summer camp for his first year or not. He actually did make it through the full week of camp but he was completely miserable the whole time and sadly never really adjusted. Suffice it to say, he quit scouts. 

If you go with your son this year, will he feel more comfortable about going solo next year? Or will your being there strengthen his dependence on you being present next summer also?

I'd recommend having him not attend summer camp this year. Let him get to know the scouts and other leaders more over the year and hopefully he will be ready to go next year. When he sees that the other boys who did go have a leg up on advancement, that may also motivate him to attend next year.

17 minutes ago, ncscouterz said:

She seems to be a my way or the highway type of person where she asks for help for stuff and then completely takes over, changes it, gets mad when she has to do it. She wont take suggestions and if you do suggest something you are one of "those" parents.

And you're saying her leaving would be a bad thing...?

4 hours ago, mrkstvns said:

I don't understand that either.  I know some scouters say they will only work with kids in their own unit, which might be the issue, but if it really is a case of a scouter discriminating against girls, it is most inappropriate.

Would you argue that chartered organizations that choose not to support girl packs or troops are also guilty of discrimination? 

Would you argue that the BSA "discriminated" against girls for the first 100 plus years of its existence? Was that also inappropriate?

Would you accuse Baden Powell of being a misogynist for not allowing girls to join?

6 hours ago, FireStone said:

These days, I wouldn't be so sure about that. I've been watching a lot of hiking videos/documentaries lately and did some research into demographics of hikers, in particular thru-hikers on the Appalachian Trail, and the demographics are something around 1/3 of those who complete the 2,000+ mile trek are women. That's up significantly since the early 2000s when that number was closer to 20%.

Backpacking seems like a pretty scout-oriented activity, and 1/3 certainly isn't a small group. Recent reports from the Outdoor Industry Association suggest that 47% of Americans who went camping in recent years were female.

I wonder if the idea that girls/women don't want to do scout-like things is at all related to simply the visibility of females in these sorts of activities in past decades. Today's demographics would certainly seem to suggest that woman have a significant interest in doing outdoorsy things like camping and backpacking. So where else could this notion of females being "the exception" be coming from if the data just doesn't support that?

You have to admit that' your own anecdotal viewing of some hiking show you saw, doesn't exactly constitute strong  data.

The real data I am actually very interested in seeing, is on financial contributions, or other forms of support, from organizations like the National Organization of Women (NOW), that had previously attacked the BSA for previously excluding girls. 

Surely they must love the new Scouts BSA and are willing and eager to contribute to and support the BSA's new found commitment to girls

I don't know what NOW has or hasn't done for Scout Me In...and I could very well be wrong, but my hunch is that they've done absolutely nothing.

I stand by my original prediction though that I don't think there are enough girls and female leaders, to make girls in the boy scouts viable in the long run.

8 hours ago, mrkstvns said:

Perhaps the people who seem gloom and doom in girls saying "Scout Me In" will end up seeing that all their hype was much ado about nothing.

 

And perhaps it was ado about something.

I'm sure there are girls who genuinely want to do boy scout oriented activities but they are more the exception than the norm. I'm sure there are also a lot of other girls joining right now because of the hype and hoopla of girls in the boy scouts, and perhaps because they or their parents want to virtue signal in some way...after their first real camping trip, those girls in the latter, and their moms, though may decide that boy scouts really isn't quite their cup of tea...

I don't think the numbers will be there in the long term to make Scout Me In viable...just my prediction