NDW5332

On 11/10/2023 at 7:52 PM, Armymutt said:

I mean that the Scouts act more like Cub Scouts than Boy Scouts.  I supervised a group of Scouts from across the district at our Cub Scout day camp.  The ones from our CO needed far more supervision.  They lacked motivation to get their tasks done without me having to check up on them.  I don't know what the average age of the troop is right now.  They have no interaction with us.  The SPL appears to be a high schooler - probably same age as the SPLs I had as a kid.  

I'm a terrible person at gussing the age of a kid.  I flipped through my old highschool yearbook and saw my old SPL. My God, he looked 45 years old in 1991, and he had just turned 17.  A couple o years ago, Our troop now had an SPL  at 13 and our outgoing SPL just turned 18, so 5 years is a lot of time to mature and grow into Did you speak with the CO Troop's SM?to address your concerns?  Regarding the lack of motivation on tasks, what kind of tasks.   Was is a true lack of motivation, or was it a skill set gap and lack of training.   Were the Scouts "Voluntold" they'd have to help, or was it cheerful service? I find that volunteers are generally more motivated than kids that are told they have to give up their weekend.  Did you ask the Scouts what was going on?  How they felt about how the day camp was going, what did they think the adults could have been doing better?

On 11/8/2023 at 9:49 PM, Armymutt said:

 I've seen their SPL and am not impressed.  Severe lack of discipline in that troop.

A couple of questions:  What do you mean by "lack of discipline" do you mean that the PLC/older scouts, and the adult leadership do not hold scouts accountable for their actions or behavior?  Or do you mean self discipline among the scouts?

"what is the average age of the troop, does it skew older or younger?

How old is the SPL, and how long have they been in the position? Were they appointed by the adult leadership, or were they elected by their peers? Our troop has had some SPLs that started out young and "green" and they've grown into themselves and grown into the role.  How are they supported?

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

We leave the place better than we found it, so we don’t require any additional custodial services,” Courtney said at the meeting last month. 

 

On one hand, I do find it unfortunate that the school, in an attempt to be more equitable among those wishing to use the facilities gave a seemingly greater burden of cost to the Brownies and I hope something can be worked out.  However the one thing I do take issue with is the Brownies notion that  "we leave the place better than when we found it so we don't require any additional custodial services"  Unless they are cleaning the bathroom too, taking the garbage out to the dumpster, there would still be some degree of  custodial work required.  My wife's a teacher and whenever any extracurricular uses her classroom after hours, there's still a bit of extra clean up that needs to be done the next day, not to mention things like classroom supplies not put back where they were initially found

On 10/27/2023 at 1:08 PM, SSScout said:

There it is.  Dr. Bourke and company not withstanding, it is up to THE PARENTS, and everyone else to see that what is RIGHT happens.  The Guidelines are just that, GUIDELINES.   If the people who WATCH and SEE don't speak up, don't say something, the GUIDELINES mean zilch.  

I like to call it "The ReasonTM" A Scout/youth is interested in Scouting and join Cub Scouts/Scouts BSA, but the parent doesn't want to be the bad guy and tell the kid "no", they need The ReasonTM so their child won't want to keep asking to join or keep attending.  Some "Reasons" I've had to deal with:  not safe enough;  What do you mean this week's den meeting is at so-and-so's house?; it rained this weekend and you still kept camping; the Cub Adventure Day the pack went to served cheese pizza and my son only eats pepperoni. I've got a few more on the Troop side, but it was more  far more prevalent on the Cub side.

About 10 years ago, I worked our Pack's recruitment table at a back-to-school night.  One prospective parent said, "My son wants to do Cub Scouts, but I'm not sure it's safe enough for him."  I explained explained that there are barriers to abuse, 2-deep leadership, no one on one contact with adults, everyone is trained, etc...  She then gives me, "I don't just mean abuse, how are you going to keep my son safe." I added that as a parent of a Tiger, they would be present at everything and could see for themselves what goes on. Camping is family camping.  The family never signed up, and despite the child's desire to join Scouting, the parent's were against it, and "Safety" was "The Reason" they gave their son why he couldn't do it, so we, Scouting" were the bad guys,.

6 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

This is a phrase that makes me stop.  It's well intentioned and wishing nothing but good for everyone. 

It's also very dangerous and can kill a troop. 

Had an instance in our Cub Pack when I was CC. One Scout attacked another during a meeting and wouldn't get off until he was pulled off by his mother. A lot of people wanted him kicked out of the pack. We went to Council ask about it, being relatively inexperienced with these types of disciplinary matters.  We scheduled a meeting with the boy's mom, myself, the DL, CM, the UC, The COR/IH, and our Roundtable commissioner for good measure.  Time comes for the meeting, everyone from the pack is there.  UC doesn't show up, RT Commish doesn't show up, Mom comes with her new boyfriend. He chews us out saying the kid that got attacked should toughen up and he probably had it coming (This guy also thought it was a good idea to bring a 12" knife on a Wolf hike in the local forest preserve).  The COR/IH (the pastor of our CO) said the boy reminded him of his own troubled son and that Scouting would be just the thing for him.  "All is forgiven" not even a suspension.  A couple of families quit over this. Fast forward a couple of months to our Pack's participation in our town's Christmas parade.  Our pack is getting staged for the parade.  An older woman was parking her car nearby starts to get out. The Scout in question unprovoked, just took off for this car and started punching the woman in the face as she was getting out.  Our CM said "that's it" you're out immediately. Council was like "what took so long?" I was like, you guys did nothing to help us before and we got hung out to dry by our COR. 

17 hours ago, Ojoman said:

I agree that Scouting is a good value but unlike a lot of other youth activities, Scouting depends upon a certain amount of parent participation to be successful. In sports you often have 1 or 2 coaches  and mom n dad mostly sit on the sidelines or dropoff and pickup their kid or send him with a friends family. Then there are the new restrictions and registration/YPT requirements for parents to participate just as parents. It is no longer 'keep it simple and make it fun'. Also, councils need to do more to support the units with local, in person trainings including POW WOW and U of Sctg. We desperately need more adults that are dedicated and well equipped. Kids and parents whose needs are met stay in. There is no reason to have 25 or 30 percent turnover. We shouldn't fear the competition, we should be the competition. 

 

The problem with a lot of the other activities in our area, particularly athletics and marching band, is that it's an all or nothing proposition. The coaches and band directors demand 100% of their time outside of school. Kids feel the need to join travel ball, rec leagues, and local athletic associations, because they won't make the high school team without it.  If they don't make that, then they aren't going to get seen by pro-scouts, or college scouts.  A lot of these kids have delusions of grandeur and legitimately think NFL scouts are at their pop-warner games.  When I was a mere Cub Den Leader, one of my Tigers who made it through the end of Wolf gave up Scouting for football.  He's playing on the high school team, but he's also on his 4th concussion and also had a broken ankle.

1 hour ago, Ojoman said:

The plain truth today is that there is a lack of RETENTION in the Cub program. Many packs only cross a couple of AOL's to Scouts because they only have a couple.

When my son started as a Tiger, there were 3 dens of 6 - one with kids from one school, one with kids from another close school, and the 3rd was homeschooled and "floaters".  By the start of the Bear year, the three dens were down to 1.  So, what happened.  8 of the original 18 had left because families moved. 2 left because they were diagnosed with learning disabilities, went to new schools with special programs, and the parents did not want their sons to be left behind because they hadn't finished Wolf.  3 more left because of travel sports - their coaches gave them ultimatums sport or scouts.  That left a Bear den of 5. By the end of the Bear year,  1 more moved away, 1 left to join another pack in the area, because his dad was the UC and wanted to join an "accelerated program" that would combine Web 1 and AOL and Boy Scout requirements, so they could join a 'brother troop' as a Tenderfoot in less than a year (not sure if it was legal, particularly with the ages of the boys, but OK). 1 more left and followed that family.  So we started Web 1 with 2, my son plus 1 more. We added another Web 1 after a recruitment night.  At the end of the year, one of the kids that went to the "accelerated program" came back (not the UC's kid).  Picked up 2 more at the start of AOL in the recruiting night.  All 6 crossed over at the end of the year to two different troops. 2 have earned Eagle already, 1 is very close (only needs to dot some lower-case "J's" on the application, turn in the paperwork and schedule the BOR). 1 did end up dropping out of Scouts after 6 months. From what I have heard, the last 2 are still going strong and are working through their advancement...so where was I? I think there are often a lot of external factors that affect retention and attrition and there isn't one magic silver bullet that will solve what ails a pack or troop.

Any chance you can get a parent in one of the other dens to be DL, at least on paper?  In our Pack, we had a Bear Den with 6 scouts and a set Den Leader,  but then he got a new job opportunity, but in taking the job, he quit as DL on the spot.  His son stayed around, but due to the demands of the job (expanded hours, conflicting days & times, , he had to drop immediately. None of the other parents in the den would step up.  I was CC and rechartering was coming up.  I asked each parent individually, and had them lay out their concerns and reasoning. Some parents thought they already did "enough", some parents didn't want to deal with specific kids in the den (one mom had a problem with another mom; one dad had a problem with a different mom).  So, I made it an agenda item at the next committee meeting, which was open to the Pack.  One Wolf dad that showed up, who was also the previous CC and who's oldest son crossed over three years prior, said he'd take over the Bear den.   Problem solved, but I got lucky!

45 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

In our council they have decided to limit the number of merit badges an MBC can be registered for.  In GTA it advised that National does not limit the number but local councils can.  Not sure why they want to do this, assume it's a money grab to get that $25 fee from more folks.

I know, let's drive more people away from the program 

I don't see it as a money grab, but when you do have some Eagle Factory troops in your council, with several leaders that are registered as counselors for literally every merit badge, and whose troop has a number of Scouts that have earned every merit badge, it does raise some eyebrows.  

On 8/20/2023 at 7:23 AM, 1980Scouter said:

Put scout offices and shops on camp properties and sell the council offices. Reduced overhead.

Our council's office and shop used to be located at our camp, which was a good 2 hour+ drive during rush hour.  Thankfully they opened a new office and shop much closer and centrally located to the units, so when I have to drop off paperwork or pick things up for our COH, I only have to drive 35 minutes.

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Again, if the SM designates a youth to sign off on advancement, SCOOUTBOOK will not allow it to be approved.  An adult has to approve it, which defeats the purpose of Scouting in general, and the Patrol Methods specifically. 

I've found that for cross-overs where parents have set up some Scouts' Scoutbook accounts, those permissions sometimes carry over.  That's why a thorough review process always needs to be in place.  We had one scout that "earned" himself the Chess Merit Badge by marking the requirements complete himself, independent of any Counselor or SM review.  Scoutbook showed it as "earned" on his advancement report even though SM or Advancement Chair had not "approved" it.

On 8/2/2023 at 9:56 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

4. SCOUTBOOK does not allow youth to sign off on advancement, only adults with authorization can do advancement. This defeats the purpose of Scouting.

Scoutbook will allow a youth to mark items as "complete" and it would be up to the Scoutmaster, one of the designated ASM's, or the Advancement Chair to Approve the requirement.

4 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

The Catholic Diocese of Madison (Wisconsin) announced it will drop support of BSA at the end of 2024.

I'd bet that they'd be more than willing to sign off on any Eagle projects that would benefit the diocese or individual parishes.

On 7/18/2023 at 12:00 PM, Tron said:

It's really easy, teach the SPL & PLs to lead by consensus/try to lead by consensus. The process will force them to seek input from all stakeholders before advancing something along. 

By "all stakeholders" do you mean 'unanimous' consensus, or just a majority?  We had an SPL that wouldn't move forward on a decision unless everyone in the troop agreed to it.  He really didn't want anyone to feel left out.  But in doing that, a lot of meetings for a while just devolved into another game of kickball or practicing knots for an hour.

19 hours ago, skeptic said:

As far as I am aware, uniforms for adult volunteers are still tax deductible if you itemize; keep receipts and be reasonable.  Not sure about the youth uniforms, have to check on that.  But do not believe they are, thouogh maybe in some instances.  Similarly, properly receipted gas and vehicle wear is deductible, and a milage count is still able to be listed at whatever the current cents per mile is; again,  be able to verify in some manner.  For example, when I still had enough info to itemize, I had determined the milage to our meeting place and the scout office and kept a roough record of how many trips.  Ten miles rt to the meeting times usually about 25 times with meetings and outings and service.  Twenty rt to the office, twice a month on averrage.  Trips depended on whether scouts chipped in some way which often occurred at parent insistence on longer trips.  If not, then again the map milage was the figure.  Gear is a bit more unclear, though I suspect some may fall into the catgory, especially if donated to the unit.  Adults also can deduct reasonable lost income if they go to camp as a leader, and also any training like Woodbadge.  Online not deductible, only ones that are a drive to and from, and maybe meals if not fed.  I also deducted the cost of recognition events at half the cost if it was a dinner of some sort.  

 

A couple of years ago, when doing my taxes, my accountant said the only thing I could deduct from my Scouting volunteering was cash donations (like FOS) and mileage driven.  Anything I did for myself, including uniforms, equipment, training (University of Scouting) and den activity costs, wasn't deductible.

58 minutes ago, DannyG said:

BOR is never denied. It is postponed until the scout is fully prepared. 

Fun story from my Troop before I took over as Advancement Chair.  We had a Scout, through no fault of his own, do his Eagle BOR wearing his sweaty, muddy, grass stained high school lacrosse team uniform.

So how did this happen? The Scout provided three dates and times he was available for his BOR.  The District Advancement Chair said OK to the latest date.  Scout makes plans for other days.  However District Advancement Chair actually scheduled it for the wrong date and time.  BOR is waiting for Scout and Scoutmaster, calls both, can't get a hold of either. Calls Scout's mom. Mom gives the District Advancement Chair an earful (because she was copied on the e-mail with the original later date), but now he and the other BOR members can't do the originally agreed upon date, might need to postpone at least a month.  Mom knows son really wants this, so she goes to his school and pulls him out of his lacrosse game and drags him to the BOR. 

He earned his Eagle that day.

I was in my local Walgreens, when I overheard one side of a very heated argument a woman was having with someone thru her ear pods:  "I know that Scouts are supposed to be helpful, but there's no way in H**** I'm letting my son sleep in a tent that someone else helped him set up!"  Not knowing the details, and not wanting a confrontation, I made my way through the check out and left.  But what could I have offered in that moment?

On 5/23/2023 at 12:22 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

About five times a year, parent X will call me and say "Jimmy missed the event because we never heard about it."

To which we always respond, "Did you read your email or check Scoutbook?"  The answer is always <crickets> because "the usual suspects" expect you to hound them directly until they have gotten the information they need.

It takes both pushing and pulling information to bridge the communication gap.

We've got a few parents that have their e-mail settings turned off for their sons' Scoutbook accounts.  One parent claims it's a security issue.  We also have a private Facebook group to communicate everything as well, but then there are plenty parents that aren't on Facebook either.

All parents are invited to the Troop meetings at the end to hear the announcements, but still, only a handful of the same parents show up.

I've also seen Scouts tell their parents picking them up after a meeting about upcoming campouts, events, etc.. and then the same parents claim they never heard anything. 

You can lead a horse to water...

On 2/6/2023 at 1:23 PM, curious_scouter said:

4 - Hard no.  Hate it.  Why?  Standard of advancement changes.  Unless they change it for AOL too.  Standard for completing in Cubs is "Do your best".  And most / many requirement say "With help if necessary".  I believe pretty strongly you need to know the Scout Oath and law to get your Scout badge.  It's not a huge lift from the standards of Cubs but it's a very important first step IMO to leaving "do your best" behind.

I'm against the "insta-Scout" for AOL crossovers as well.  First, it starts teaching the Scouts the self reliance and self advocacy that are necessary in Scouting and in life.  It's not the simple Cub Scouting rubber stamp anymore, you don't get sign-offs just for showing up. The Scout needs to seek out the older scouts (PLC members, Troop Guides, etc...) and to meet the adult leadership as well to demonstrate their skills and earn the sign-offs necessary for advancement.  It goes a long way for the SM, ASM's, and others in getting to know them as individuals as well. 

Our troop may be unique in that we seem to get 3 or 4 new Scouts every year that have no prior scouting experience. Starting out AOL crossovers at Scout will make those that have no experience feel behind and frustrated.

Just curious, where is the Troop's Advancement Chair in all of this?

On 10/26/2021 at 7:33 PM, Armymutt said:

We made it quite clear prior to popcorn sales that this is how it would be.  Parents were given ample opportunity to sign up for shifts - only 19% were claimed.  We aren't trying to establish a huge pack fund.  We ordered enough popcorn to give everyone enough sales to fund their program.  When people didn't sign up, the rest of us signed up for extra shifts to prevent us being stuck with popcorn.  Consequently, some Scouts have a large credit and some have none.  

I don't know what kind of area you live in, if it's economically disadvantaged, blue collar, or affluent, but it looks like you've possibly set up a haves vs. have-nots type situation, where if you or your Scout don't sell the popcorn your Scout doesn't get the rewards for their achievements. Having served as a Pack Committee Chair and Cubmaster myself, I know the difficulties of dealing with families not paying dues and also not being able to sell popcorn and how it impacts overall Pack finances and relationships with Council.  If only 19% of the shifts for selling popcorn were claimed, did you look into the root cause why the other 81% were not?  Did the times conflict with parents' work schedules or the Scouts' school schedules?  Were the show-n-sell locations too far away for some?  As bad as this sounds, were some of those that did sign up "one of those families" that cause issues for others and no one wanted to sell with them? (We had that happen - not fun as a Committee Chair to sort out.)  Do you have an on-line sale option for the Scouts and families?

I'll echo what elitts said upthread:  Have you considered fundraising opportunities outside of popcorn?  From my experience Scouting Popcorn has traditionally been in the Fall and competes for dollars and time with many other organizations such as marching bands (wreath sales or mums), VFW (pull tabs and poppies), KofC (Tootsie Rolls), club Football and other Fall sports (usually candy), high school extra curricular clubs (Manna or Scrip gift cards). Even our school's PTO gets into the game and wants families to go to a certain restaurant on a certain evening and they will get a percentage of the sales for the night.

Are you (OP) the Advancement Chair?  Have you brought this up to the Committee or the COR / IH?

If it's a matter of the family not having the funds to continue in Scouting, perhaps some sweat equity might help offset some of the costs - helping set up for the derbies or Blue & Gold, flipping pancakes at the pancake breakfast.  In our pack, we had left those types of decisions up to the Committee with input from the COR / IH.

Sometimes you just can't sell any popcorn no matter how hard you try.

But if your dues have no padding to them, that might be something else worth looking at with your Pack's treasurer. I get that most Cubs will barely earn their rank and nothing more, but some are particularly motivated (and some have Den Leaders that will do their jobs and show their Cubs everything that Scouting has to offer and then some) and will go out of their way for the Outdoor Activity award, the shooting sports awards, a religious emblem, a Summertime Pack award, World Conservation award, and the STEM/NOVA awards. Oh, and they speak Greek at home - an Interpreter Strip. They get a buddy to join the Pack - a Recruiter patch.  Typically the dues of the many will offset the multitude of awards and bling of the few, but some years there are exceptions.  And some years, particularly when things are tight, you find out you need a new pinewood derby track.

On 8/13/2021 at 4:42 PM, TAHAWK said:

I have been copying the Unit leader to prevent "one-on-one" communication.  A parent is now required?

I realize now I should have been more clear.  Your Charter Org may require parents be included in any communication between the Scout and any adult.  Likewise, some parents may insist on being included in any communication involving their Scout.  In both of those instances we have to honor those requests.  I've seen it from both sides as Advancement Chair for our Troop, and as a MB Counselor for our Troop and Council.  

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

6.  Get familiar with blue cards and the blue card process...both manually, and then through Scoutbook or other electronic means.  There are three people involved in the MB process...the Scout, a Unit Leader, and you.

In some instances there will be four people: you may need to include the Scout's parent, cc'd on e-mails for YPT purposes, if the Scout needs to reach out to you to set up the initial meeting, or for completion of partials afterwards.