ParaSloth

4 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

As to why I use quotation marks regarding "linked," EVERYONE I have talked to says that if they become "linked troops" they will be so on paper only. They will operate as a coed troop with gender-based patrols.

So much for "Trustworthy" on behalf of the members not following the guidelines.  Same will be true - maybe moreso - in the Cubs as Pack Leaders struggle to obtain den leaders to lead the girl dens (not to mention the mandatory women leaders that have to be present at meetings and campouts).  They will put the dens together and have them separate on paper only. 

The frustration is that I believe this is where National wants to be (fully co-ed), and they are not being honest with themself or the membership by enacting this "step", waiting for it to fail, then changing policy to where they wanted it to be in the first place.

4 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

 

 

A few random thoughts:

Girls:  I admit I'm very right-thinking, and the thought of girls in BSA turned me off at first. But the more I think about it the more I really don't mind.  More thinking, and also talking to GS leaders who are excited about the decision as their troops don't camp, hike, etc.  Now sounding like a right-winger I'll get upset when I see "mother" taking over and hovering over scouts...as upset as I get when I see a "father" doing the same. On the Cub Scout side (my younger is a Tiger this year - I'm taking on CM) I'm very excited about girls being included.  I had always enjoyed the family atmosphere at CS camps.

Girls #2: Some here are already mentioning "coed troop" options.  From my limited understanding of the infogram, the only two options are separate troops (boy/girl troops, each having a different CO and boy/girl troops sharing a CO - both still being seperate troops).  If I misunderstood and they were refering to the second option mentioned in the parentheses, my bad.  

Wood Badge: I went to Wood Badge.  I took home some gems of knowledge and used them in my pack and troop, as well as in my job as a Project Manager. I was dissapointed in the lack of rigidity I thought I would see - e.g., no uniform inspections, etc. I set my bar high for my tickets as I thought all had.  Then I was sickened when everyone celebrated the first beading (after only a few months), that being some rather weak tickets in my opinion.  But my opinion also includes some weak Eagle projects I see out there as well these days.  I have hung my head seeing some Wood Badgers - one gent was wearing his proudly with a t-shirt (I guess that's now accepted) and parading around like he was king of scouters, another cornered my troop in the woods as we were hiking asking if all the adult leaders were Wood Badgers as there is none greater than a Wood Badge Leader!  I wear my beads, but with my troop necker, and strive to embrace the humility I feel every leader should, especially a Wood Badger.  I also don't like a bunch of crap dangling off my uniform and drawing attention.

Breaking poing:  I thought I had encountered a few, but I keep seeing that the boys (now youth) just need me there.  Honestly my breaking point will be when my son(s) look at me and say they don't want to do scouts anymore, and after some encouragement towards scouting they maintain that position.  There are other fine organizations out there - Civil Air Patrol being one my son is eyeing.  Obtaining that Eagle is a fine accomplishment that I celebrate in every boy that earns it, however it just really isn't that game-changer employers are looking for that will set you high above other candidates. 

Thank you all for your continued responses - I truly appreciate the fact that I can jump on a forum and have my brother/sister scout leaders assist.

We spoke last night.  I had a third option after talking to the other AOL patrol in our pack.  They are taking a slower track, and plan to cross over in May, so I offered to let him ride out the rest of the year with them.  She decided that she was just going to take him out and "revisit" the idea of scouts when he turns 11.  It makes me a little sad since he's been with me from a Tiger (Cub), but I respect her decision.  Another side of this is he has not been active this year anyways and really has a lot of catching up to do - so it's not like he only has this one requirement then he's done.  Well, I've done what I could and I'm going to let him loose.  

To address some comments the YPT and registration is, as HelpfulTracks pointed out, required so we can have a background check.  This was discussed by the CO and founding SM based on past experience within another troop of having adults come to camp that were relatives (or friends in some cases) of the boys with no YPT.  We felt that YPT is good as long as it is enforced, but when not enforced it is just a video and certificate. Even when enforced we were getting strange characters showing up that may have taken the YPT but ...were shady.  Another comment was that he could come during the day, but this particular event requires the troop to come and go as a unit. So if the troop decides to camp, they arrive and camp as a unit.  Due to the logistics having someone roll up on Saturday and try to find you would be difficult.

Anyway - thanks again for the help, and just being there when I need to throw a thought out there!

Good point, Hawkwin.  The email is sort of a follow-up to our conversation where I told her I would seek out his options, so I'll follow it up with a phone call to make sure she understands.  Very good point so thank you.

Just sent her an email with two options.  Here is the relevant part of my email.  I hope it was fair!

Very good point DuctTape!  This will help in talking to the mother!

Thank you both!  Honestly I'm sad to lose this boy as he's been with me from a Tiger.  qwazse your answer made me chuckle and sad at the same time - unfortunately I think this is going to be the outcome.  Latin Scot your answer is right on - I'm going to spell it out and let them make the decision (I shouldn't be the one to stress over it!).  "C" was never really an option - just me going out of my mind trying to accomodate this kid, as we typically do as scout leaders!

Thanks again!

Seeking advice here - will try to keep scenario short so I'll stick to the facts.

My AOL den has been working hard since June to get our advancements in so we can cross over in January. As a den we decided to attend our district's Yule Log weekend camping event to fulfill Scouting Adventure requirement #4 (...participate in a Boy Scout troop's campout or other outdoor activity ... ).  All of my boys are going ... except one.  The troop we are moving up into will only allow parents to camp IF they are registered scout leaders with current YPT. Two dad's decided to register so they can come camping; both will probably remain leaders. The scout's parents are not ready to allow him to camp by himself, the mother does not want to camp and the father works out of state. This is the only chance we have to complete this requirement before our planned AOL and Cross Over. I'm trying to figure out my options with this kid:

a)  Just leave him be - he never was really active and this just seals the deal.  He probably won't move on to a troop since he cannot go camping alone.

b)  Recommend the parent to another troop to participate in a troop activity, then award the AOL after he has completed that.  

c)  Forget about the requirement and pass him anyway.

d)  ???

Hedgehog I think that's a great explanation of your Venturing crew and experience with TG kids.  It certainly sounds like a crew I want my son (or, if I had a daughter) to be part of.

I know there's a lot of issues being raised here, but it seems that the underlying issue for me is that I really don't want the Boy Scouts to become a co-ed organization.   Why?  Well not because I cannot fathom serving the youth (all sexes) of our nation, but rather that I want that place where boys can get together to bond as boys. Honestly, I don't mind throwing a truly transgendered or whatever kid in the mix.  My fear is that this is a step leading to the Cub Scouts and the Boy Scouts becoming co-ed, and that's the issue I have.  BSA has co-ed groups, and I understand they work well.  However, there are girl organizations out there (GSA) to serve those niches too.  Taking way Cubs/Boy Scouts takes away the boy-only option.  I don't think it's wrong to have a boy-only option.  Is that out of line?

The YPT issues can be resolved - albeit with a little time and a little money (revamping bathrooms, etc.).

@Helpful Tracks - that post was very...helpful!  Thanks for taking the time to write.

That depends. Are they very close in what they do? I know in the UK Girl Guiding, like Scouting, is a broad church. Some do the chocolate badge (no really, no, the badge isn't chocolate) every year, some would put many scout troops to shame with their outdoor programme. There was some wailing from some leaders, I guess the HQs had a few conversations. There are always the grumble from guide leaders about scouts "stealing their girls". Was it the end of GirlGuiding? No. It's actually bigger than scouting in the UK, but I don't have membership numbers to know if they are growing or shrinking. They generally appeal to different sorts of girls.

Both interesting and informative - thanks!  I guess, secretly, that I'll be sad that there will be a girl's organization and a co-ed organization...but no boy's organization in the end.

 

c.     Does BSA open Boy Scouts up to girls? I have long been a proponent of BSA starting a parallel organization for girls. I have daughter that would love that opportunity and who is counting the days until she is old enough for Venturing. I also have a son who thinks Venturing being coed is great, but as he put it, he likes Boy Scouts, because sometimes he likes having a place to hang out with the guys.

Your whole post is excellent - I just picked this out because this is one of the big things bothering me (the other YPT issues).  WHAT THE CRAP IS WRONG WITH THE GIRL SCOUTS?????  They go camping, etc. and every time I speak with a Girl Scout leader I walk away impressed!  The GS is a great organization!!!!  So I guess - why would the BSA need to start a parallel org for girls ... let alone why does the BSA need to change to include girls???  

I keep thinking that this is the road we are going down - becoming a co-ed organization.  And many of the leaders I talk with think the same way.  HOWEVER - if BSA becomes co-ed, what will become of the GS organization?  Don't you think they would fight this decision?  Just curious.

"Courteous" "kind" "friendly" "brave" go out the window when lawsuits are involved. 

 

At some point, being negative is beyond not scout like.  It's something we don't want to teach our scouts.  

Needs to be discussed, as long as the discussion is being productive.  Change is not always good - especially when it is forced.

It appears this is already happening. Would it surprise anyone what her father does for a living? Guesses? Wait for it....he's an attorney!!    

THIS!!  The arrogance in this girl/family makes me want to completely vomit. "I'm going to make them conform to me"  BS!

The thing with Trail Life is that it doesn't have the coveted "Eagle Scout" rank that we all look to put on our son's resumes.  

Good reason to have a necker on hand I suppose.

1. Would female leaders be "required" for outings (like the Venturing policy).  I think not.  The whole (technical to transgender) point here is that that child, for ALL intents and purposes is supposed to be treated as if they were (in this case) a boy.  To have female leadership, only for this reason defeats that purpose, and make it that the child is being treated differently which is exactly what they do not want.  Current YPT rules for leaders still apply - two deep leadership, no one-on-one.  This will cover the leaders' behaviors.  As for youth on youth - see #3 below.

 

Adult Supervision/Coed Activities

Male and female adult leaders must be present for all overnight coed Scouting trips and outings, even those including parent and child. Both male and female adult leaders must be 21 years of age or older, and one must be a registered member of the BSA.  (http://www.scouting.org/Training/YouthProtection.aspx)

The issue is what's going to go down in the court of law when something unfortunate does happen here.  Even if the person identifies as a male, they are still a female (i.e., female identifying as a male), so did you do your due diligence to protect this person?  

What is the Girl Scouts' position on serving transgender youth?  Girl Scouts is proud to be the premiere leadership organization for girls in the country. Placement of transgender youth is handled on a case-by-case basis, with the welfare and best interests of the child and the members of the troop/group in question a top priority. That said, if the child is recognized by the family and school/community as a girl and lives culturally as a girl, then Girl Scouts is an organization that can serve her in a setting that is both emotionally and physically safe.

How does Girl Scouts' position on serving transgender youth apply to situations involving camping or volunteers? These situations are rare and are considered individually with the best interests of all families in mind. Should any girl requiring special accommodations wish to camp, GSUSA recommends that the local council makes similar accommodation that schools across the country follow in regard to changing, sleeping arrangements, and other travel-related activities. With respect to volunteers, Girl Scouts welcomes both male and female adult volunteers and has developed appropriate safeguards regarding roles and responsibilities to ensure that girls receive the proper supervision and support.

Cut/paste from their site.  I was curious how they handled things.  Like them, I would like to see the placement handled within BSA like it states above - with the members of not only the individuals but also the pack/troop/group in question a top priority.  We, as a CO, should have the option of accepting/rejecting a transgender member.  Also - interesting they state "...if the child is recognized by the family and school/community as a girl and lives culturally as a girl ... "

For the second FAQ - I'd love to know how this actually takes place/works out in their camps.  One thing they state, "With respect to volunteers, Girl Scouts welcomes both male and female adult volunteers ... "  While they state this, the many Girl Scout leaders and dads I have spoke to state this isn't the case.  Dad's are not welcome.

Our local camp has a main bathhouse with one section for male adults, another for female adults, and a third (larger) for the boys.  I guess first order is to raise funds to tear down that bathouse and create another to fit the new policy.  Those concerned with the YPT aspect have some valid concerns which shouldn't be dismissed.  This policy has secondary and tertiary effects. 

The mother of the 8-yr old girl identifying as a boy said, "she would like for her son to re-join the Scouts, but only if the leader who kicked him out leaves."  Understanding this lady is upset, but I'm suspecting the leader was following the policy at the time.  How intolerant of her.

There's so much going on in my head.  Honestly as a Cub Scout leader I enjoy the family camp setting where the boys play with the girl siblings. I also enjoy working with female scout leaders.  So in that aspect if BSA was changed to "whatever" Scouts of America I'd be fine with that.  But on the other hand - what hurts is that I had an organization where my boy was being brought up among other boys, to deal with boy issues and learn values associated with growing up as a male.  Sometimes boys just need to be with other boys, under the influence of a male role model(s).  Why does society want to get away from this?  They can deal with all this other stuff at school.  

So there you are.  I'm sure you can tell I'm a white Christian male living in the south - your license to now attack me but all in the spirit of scouting.